My charger will never be fuel injected!!!!!

[69wannabe]

I was looking into all these new throttle body fuel injection kits that have recently hit the scene and thinking that maybe I would do a kit on my car one day well not anymore!!!!!! Thought I had a pretty good grasp on the modern day vehicles and how they worked but I got 92 jeep wrangler that I have been working on for three weeks and never did get it figured out so I just told the owner to come get it and haul it away. I checked wiring and checked more wiring and put the normal problem crank sensor on it and a pick up coil in the distributor and even tried a new ecm and still nothing. Lost my a$$ on this one and was looking at it today and thinking if that was a carburetor and a regular distributor I could make it run or at least I think I could (not sure of my mechanical skills at all anymore) make it run. After the disappointment of this jeep that beat me I decided that I would rather have that holley double pumper on my car and my new firecore distributor anyday over fuel injection!! Since this EFI crap is definitely not going to happen I can set my sights on that new passion performance bolt in 5 speed that has recently been released!!!!!

[Ghoste]

Sorry to hear about the efi experience but at least you see a silver lining in the 5 speed. 

[myk]

EFI would be one of the last 'mods I would consider on my car.  A properly set up 'carb will do most of us just fine.  Personally, after spending almost a grand that should've gone to the Charger, for new fuel injectors for my Camaro, I'm not favoring anything too fancy right now...

[69wannabe]

EFI would be one of the last 'mods I would consider on my car.  A properly set up 'carb will do most of us just fine.  Personally, after spending almost a grand that should've gone to the Charger, for new fuel injectors for my Camaro, I'm not favoring anything too fancy right now...

That is exactly how I feel!!! I could have bought me some sub frame connectors for my charger with the money I lost trying to fix this guy's jeep. At least with a carb and a distributor it is fairly easy to diagnose when your car will not run and usually can be fixed fairly easy too!!

[Dino]

It's one of the mods I want to do as I drive mycar as much as possible, but I have no interest in tbi.  It would not need to be sequential, although preferred, but a nice batch fire mpfi is on the top of my list.  I'll spend the money on the 6 speed conversion first though.

[redmist]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

[Dino]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

After the winter semester I am going to try to decipher what you did to yur car and see if I can duplicate it because yours is pretty much setup like a modern car right?  My main goal with efi is driveability but I'm sure mileage will improve a bit as well although maybe not by much.

[Kern Dog]

Some things I look at as a matter of...HOW many miles of fuel savings do I have to drive to make it pay for itself.
EFI will never pay for itself the amount of miles I drive the car. It isn't likely to make as much power with EFI either. The weather here is pretty mild so the advantages EFI has in cold climates or high altitudes isn't much help to me.
Whatever the future brings, I'll see it with a carburetor under my hood.

[Mike DC]

IMHO the gas mileage gains of EFI seem a bit overblown even with multiport injected systems.  The factories switched to EFI in the 1980s for emissions reasons as much as mileage.
 

[Dino]

I doubt I would see much improvement in mileage but that's not as important as having a car that is reliable, starts up when I drive it in freezing temps and does not make me smell like a gas canister.

[Cooter]

Yeah everybody seems think paying their local tech. All that diagnosis time is a waste till they get their asses handed to em. Sorry that Jeep kicked yours. Now, do that same thing for a living with a bossman screaming and a customer whining bout money, and you'll understand Cooter a little better.

Did a F.I. swap with turbo on a 68 Chevelle with small block. Owner wasn't happy. Swapped to blow through carb and now he's happy with power, but says "it likes fuel".

Imo, once the novelty of fuel inj. Wears off and enough guys go through what OP went through, carbs still rule the streets due to cost alone.

[redmist]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.

I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 


I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???


They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

[myk]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

Are we talking aftermarket or OEM injectors?  When it comes to electronics on newer cars I go with OEM, in this case the extremely overpriced AC Delco/Delphi; I've had way too many aftermarket electronics fail on me.  And it was less than a grand I'm just being overly-dramatic because that car eats money.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but tuning EFI requires mapping fuel curves, timing, and all of that stuff on a computer and hoping it all works.  I don't know about you guys but I don't have that sort of a skill set.  Again it boils down to choice and the wallet in question...

[redmist]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

Are we talking aftermarket or OEM injectors?  When it comes to electronics on newer cars I go with OEM, in this case the extremely overpriced AC Delco/Delphi; I've had way too many aftermarket electronics fail on me.  And it was less than a grand I'm just being overly-dramatic because that car eats money.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but tuning EFI requires mapping fuel curves, timing, and all of that stuff on a computer and hoping it all works.  I don't know about you guys but I don't have that sort of a skill set.  Again it boils down to choice and the wallet in question...

Factory OEM Bosch EV-14 Injectors... In fact they are the same injectors used in the 2013 GT-500 Mustang.  60Lb-hr  600cc modern injectors.  $28 a piece!   

Fuel Curves are not scary, and you don't just hope they work. Look at it this way... you could set the ENTIRE MAP from idle to WOT to an AFR of 13:0 and the car would run just fine. Not perfect, but it would work 100% and be safe to drive in any RPM range.

Timing curve is just like your distributor.  Set base, Have all the timing in by whatever RPM you pick and go. 


Look, I just made these maps in Tuner Studio.

13:1 AFR Accross the entire map for fuel

Timing is a base of 20deg @ 900 RPM, and goes to 35deg, all in by 3100 RPM.

You could load these maps into most of our cars, and they would probably run better than a carb, haha

[Cooter]

How long did it take to get all that fuel injection on that 440?
Tuned and running?
Custom parts?
Cost?

[redmist]

Took about 4 months... a couple custom parts, I have been tuning it myself. (Well it sorta tunes itself)

I am about $2000 into it there bouts, but I put real nice stuff in it in some places.

It's getting an upgrade here real soon.

[Dino]

$2K doesn't even buy you a basic batch kit so this is a steal in my book.  I understand that weekend cruisers don't want to make that investment, I do, but I want to drive my car as much as possible and efi just makes sense for me.  That and the 6 speed.   

Nice upgrade you got there.   

[69wannabe]

Looks nice but I would rather have my double pumper and distributor if something fails. I am pretty sure I can be up and going pretty quickly. What you got there will more than likely require a tow truck when something fails!!! I have a few jeeps myself and have always done my own repairs on them from rebuilding engines to replacing transmissions and usually can fix any driveability problems I run into but my buddys jeep really took the cake!! The thing I like most about EFI is cold starts other than that my charger runs just fine. It doesn't get drove daily anyway and I always wondered if I had EFI on there and it died what would I do. Have to keep the truck and trailer handy at all times I suppose. I really figured I would put a new crank sensor or coil on there and I would be done with that jeep pretty quickly but I guess not. Like said above I have some experience on later model vehicles but not to build my own custom efi set up. That's way over my head from the looks of your engine. I'd rather just stay old school myself. I understand how you feel Cooter, I have worked in a car dealership and a few other places before I wound up working on fork lifts. It wasn't what I had planned on doing for a job but the pay was alot better for some reason and they gave me a work van to drive back and forth to home and work and wherever and a gas card to put gas in it with. I haven't never had it so good and basically you go from plant to plant fixing leaks or whatever problem that pops up and pretty much you are your own boss. There are good days and bad days like any job but never like when I was working at the GM dealer. That was all bad!!!!

[redmist]

Looks nice but I would rather have my double pumper and distributor if something fails. I am pretty sure I can be up and going pretty quickly. What you got there will more than likely require a tow truck when something fails!!! I have a few jeeps myself and have always done my own repairs on them from rebuilding engines to replacing transmissions and usually can fix any driveability problems I run into but my buddys jeep really took the cake!! The thing I like most about EFI is cold starts other than that my charger runs just fine. It doesn't get drove daily anyway and I always wondered if I had EFI on there and it died what would I do. Have to keep the truck and trailer handy at all times I suppose. I really figured I would put a new crank sensor or coil on there and I would be done with that jeep pretty quickly but I guess not. Like said above I have some experience on later model vehicles but not to build my own custom efi set up. That's way over my head from the looks of your engine. I'd rather just stay old school myself. I understand how you feel Cooter, I have worked in a car dealership and a few other places before I wound up working on fork lifts. It wasn't what I had planned on doing for a job but the pay was alot better for some reason and they gave me a work van to drive back and forth to home and work and wherever and a gas card to put gas in it with. I haven't never had it so good and basically you go from plant to plant fixing leaks or whatever problem that pops up and pretty much you are your own boss. There are good days and bad days like any job but never like when I was working at the GM dealer. That was all bad!!!!

69wannabe, what did the code reader say was wrong with the jeep???

If something fails, I just check the codes and replace what failed.  I mean it will literally tell you what is wrong. The car will run in Alpha-N mode if the TPS, or MAP fails, It will default to batch fire if the cam sensor fails, It will default to tuned map if the 02 Sensor fails, it will honestly run down the road reliably with just the crank sensor alone. That sensor is no different than the one in your distributor.   

Like I said, it's just a matter of taking the time to learn it... Where you guys know how to tune a carb, and set timing, you are lightyears ahead of those just getting into EFI for the first time. You know the hardest part about tuning already!

But to each his own. I am sticking to the modern tech for mine, for those with carbs.... Well, have fun!

[JR]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

The benefit of fuel injection isnt economy, it's drivability. Having the computer adjust the air/fuel mixture on the fly instead of having to adjust the carb year round. Knowing it will start in any temperature at the turn of a key. No flooding, running lean, or fouling plugs to worry about.

Im jumping at the chance to add it to mine as soon as everything else is sorted.

[RGA]

Everyone gets beat eventually . I have been working on cars professionally for 20 years and I have lost many battles but I have never lost a war yet. There is way too many things that can go wrong and cause computer controlled engines to not start. You have to completely understand the systems to properly diagnose a problem. Most people just make guesses and some get lucky. Even if it's an educated guess it's still a guess. Unless you do it everyday professionally Pay someone the $100 to tell you what's wrong with it, always.

[Kern Dog]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.
I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 
I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???
They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

YOU are happy with yours??? GREAT, I'll be one of the many that pass you by when you blow a fuse to the electric fuel pump or when your EFI "brain" shorts out. Electronics are great when they work and a huge pain in the crotch when they leave you stranded at night in an UNfamiliar town.

[1974dodgecharger]

Fuel injection is last on our cars, period.  Efi improves mpg and a little power, maybe.  I would take my carb it does not need to be perfect to run....like efi.

[Mike DC]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

[Troy]

I hate carbs! For a while I was like "I want my car to be original". Now if I have to touch another carb it will be to throw it as far as I can to use for target practice. I have lost so much cruising time in the last two years to chasing fuel and carb setup issues that it's ridiculous. Not to mention money! Cost for a really nice carb and fuel system for a musclecar is fairly steep if you ask me. Even if my car got worse mileage I'd still switch to EFI as long as I could hop in and drive whenever I wanted. I'm on my 3rd engine swap in my "toy" Toyota trucks and all have been to newer engines with EFI. The parts are nearly indestructible and pretty easy to diagnose once you figure out what each piece does. In those cases, power was way up and mileage remained the same or showed a slight increase in certain cases. None of those were tunable - just proven factory parts. If you're doing something that never existed (like a 440) then there will be some custom things that you have to play with and a tunable system would certainly make parts of it easier. FAST makes a system that learns and only has a small handheld interface. No laptop needed. I do (now) have a wideband oxygen sensor to help tune my carb'd cars but that's still much more of a pain than straight EFI. I can diagnose those with my cell phone!

Troy