My charger will never be fuel injected!!!!!

[69wannabe]

I was looking into all these new throttle body fuel injection kits that have recently hit the scene and thinking that maybe I would do a kit on my car one day well not anymore!!!!!! Thought I had a pretty good grasp on the modern day vehicles and how they worked but I got 92 jeep wrangler that I have been working on for three weeks and never did get it figured out so I just told the owner to come get it and haul it away. I checked wiring and checked more wiring and put the normal problem crank sensor on it and a pick up coil in the distributor and even tried a new ecm and still nothing. Lost my a$$ on this one and was looking at it today and thinking if that was a carburetor and a regular distributor I could make it run or at least I think I could (not sure of my mechanical skills at all anymore) make it run. After the disappointment of this jeep that beat me I decided that I would rather have that holley double pumper on my car and my new firecore distributor anyday over fuel injection!! Since this EFI crap is definitely not going to happen I can set my sights on that new passion performance bolt in 5 speed that has recently been released!!!!!

[Ghoste]

Sorry to hear about the efi experience but at least you see a silver lining in the 5 speed. 

[myk]

EFI would be one of the last 'mods I would consider on my car.  A properly set up 'carb will do most of us just fine.  Personally, after spending almost a grand that should've gone to the Charger, for new fuel injectors for my Camaro, I'm not favoring anything too fancy right now...

[69wannabe]

EFI would be one of the last 'mods I would consider on my car.  A properly set up 'carb will do most of us just fine.  Personally, after spending almost a grand that should've gone to the Charger, for new fuel injectors for my Camaro, I'm not favoring anything too fancy right now...

That is exactly how I feel!!! I could have bought me some sub frame connectors for my charger with the money I lost trying to fix this guy's jeep. At least with a carb and a distributor it is fairly easy to diagnose when your car will not run and usually can be fixed fairly easy too!!

[Dino]

It's one of the mods I want to do as I drive mycar as much as possible, but I have no interest in tbi.  It would not need to be sequential, although preferred, but a nice batch fire mpfi is on the top of my list.  I'll spend the money on the 6 speed conversion first though.

[redmist]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

[Dino]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

After the winter semester I am going to try to decipher what you did to yur car and see if I can duplicate it because yours is pretty much setup like a modern car right?  My main goal with efi is driveability but I'm sure mileage will improve a bit as well although maybe not by much.

[Kern Dog]

Some things I look at as a matter of...HOW many miles of fuel savings do I have to drive to make it pay for itself.
EFI will never pay for itself the amount of miles I drive the car. It isn't likely to make as much power with EFI either. The weather here is pretty mild so the advantages EFI has in cold climates or high altitudes isn't much help to me.
Whatever the future brings, I'll see it with a carburetor under my hood.

[Mike DC]

IMHO the gas mileage gains of EFI seem a bit overblown even with multiport injected systems.  The factories switched to EFI in the 1980s for emissions reasons as much as mileage.
 

[Dino]

I doubt I would see much improvement in mileage but that's not as important as having a car that is reliable, starts up when I drive it in freezing temps and does not make me smell like a gas canister.

[Cooter]

Yeah everybody seems think paying their local tech. All that diagnosis time is a waste till they get their asses handed to em. Sorry that Jeep kicked yours. Now, do that same thing for a living with a bossman screaming and a customer whining bout money, and you'll understand Cooter a little better.

Did a F.I. swap with turbo on a 68 Chevelle with small block. Owner wasn't happy. Swapped to blow through carb and now he's happy with power, but says "it likes fuel".

Imo, once the novelty of fuel inj. Wears off and enough guys go through what OP went through, carbs still rule the streets due to cost alone.

[redmist]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.

I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 


I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???


They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

[myk]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

Are we talking aftermarket or OEM injectors?  When it comes to electronics on newer cars I go with OEM, in this case the extremely overpriced AC Delco/Delphi; I've had way too many aftermarket electronics fail on me.  And it was less than a grand I'm just being overly-dramatic because that car eats money.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but tuning EFI requires mapping fuel curves, timing, and all of that stuff on a computer and hoping it all works.  I don't know about you guys but I don't have that sort of a skill set.  Again it boils down to choice and the wallet in question...

[redmist]

EFI was the best thing I ever did to my car...  Carbs belong in the trashcan.  


ETA: I paid $250 for all 8 of my injectors from RockAuto.   

Are we talking aftermarket or OEM injectors?  When it comes to electronics on newer cars I go with OEM, in this case the extremely overpriced AC Delco/Delphi; I've had way too many aftermarket electronics fail on me.  And it was less than a grand I'm just being overly-dramatic because that car eats money.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but tuning EFI requires mapping fuel curves, timing, and all of that stuff on a computer and hoping it all works.  I don't know about you guys but I don't have that sort of a skill set.  Again it boils down to choice and the wallet in question...

Factory OEM Bosch EV-14 Injectors... In fact they are the same injectors used in the 2013 GT-500 Mustang.  60Lb-hr  600cc modern injectors.  $28 a piece!   

Fuel Curves are not scary, and you don't just hope they work. Look at it this way... you could set the ENTIRE MAP from idle to WOT to an AFR of 13:0 and the car would run just fine. Not perfect, but it would work 100% and be safe to drive in any RPM range.

Timing curve is just like your distributor.  Set base, Have all the timing in by whatever RPM you pick and go. 


Look, I just made these maps in Tuner Studio.

13:1 AFR Accross the entire map for fuel

Timing is a base of 20deg @ 900 RPM, and goes to 35deg, all in by 3100 RPM.

You could load these maps into most of our cars, and they would probably run better than a carb, haha

[Cooter]

How long did it take to get all that fuel injection on that 440?
Tuned and running?
Custom parts?
Cost?

[redmist]

Took about 4 months... a couple custom parts, I have been tuning it myself. (Well it sorta tunes itself)

I am about $2000 into it there bouts, but I put real nice stuff in it in some places.

It's getting an upgrade here real soon.

[Dino]

$2K doesn't even buy you a basic batch kit so this is a steal in my book.  I understand that weekend cruisers don't want to make that investment, I do, but I want to drive my car as much as possible and efi just makes sense for me.  That and the 6 speed.   

Nice upgrade you got there.   

[69wannabe]

Looks nice but I would rather have my double pumper and distributor if something fails. I am pretty sure I can be up and going pretty quickly. What you got there will more than likely require a tow truck when something fails!!! I have a few jeeps myself and have always done my own repairs on them from rebuilding engines to replacing transmissions and usually can fix any driveability problems I run into but my buddys jeep really took the cake!! The thing I like most about EFI is cold starts other than that my charger runs just fine. It doesn't get drove daily anyway and I always wondered if I had EFI on there and it died what would I do. Have to keep the truck and trailer handy at all times I suppose. I really figured I would put a new crank sensor or coil on there and I would be done with that jeep pretty quickly but I guess not. Like said above I have some experience on later model vehicles but not to build my own custom efi set up. That's way over my head from the looks of your engine. I'd rather just stay old school myself. I understand how you feel Cooter, I have worked in a car dealership and a few other places before I wound up working on fork lifts. It wasn't what I had planned on doing for a job but the pay was alot better for some reason and they gave me a work van to drive back and forth to home and work and wherever and a gas card to put gas in it with. I haven't never had it so good and basically you go from plant to plant fixing leaks or whatever problem that pops up and pretty much you are your own boss. There are good days and bad days like any job but never like when I was working at the GM dealer. That was all bad!!!!

[redmist]

Looks nice but I would rather have my double pumper and distributor if something fails. I am pretty sure I can be up and going pretty quickly. What you got there will more than likely require a tow truck when something fails!!! I have a few jeeps myself and have always done my own repairs on them from rebuilding engines to replacing transmissions and usually can fix any driveability problems I run into but my buddys jeep really took the cake!! The thing I like most about EFI is cold starts other than that my charger runs just fine. It doesn't get drove daily anyway and I always wondered if I had EFI on there and it died what would I do. Have to keep the truck and trailer handy at all times I suppose. I really figured I would put a new crank sensor or coil on there and I would be done with that jeep pretty quickly but I guess not. Like said above I have some experience on later model vehicles but not to build my own custom efi set up. That's way over my head from the looks of your engine. I'd rather just stay old school myself. I understand how you feel Cooter, I have worked in a car dealership and a few other places before I wound up working on fork lifts. It wasn't what I had planned on doing for a job but the pay was alot better for some reason and they gave me a work van to drive back and forth to home and work and wherever and a gas card to put gas in it with. I haven't never had it so good and basically you go from plant to plant fixing leaks or whatever problem that pops up and pretty much you are your own boss. There are good days and bad days like any job but never like when I was working at the GM dealer. That was all bad!!!!

69wannabe, what did the code reader say was wrong with the jeep???

If something fails, I just check the codes and replace what failed.  I mean it will literally tell you what is wrong. The car will run in Alpha-N mode if the TPS, or MAP fails, It will default to batch fire if the cam sensor fails, It will default to tuned map if the 02 Sensor fails, it will honestly run down the road reliably with just the crank sensor alone. That sensor is no different than the one in your distributor.   

Like I said, it's just a matter of taking the time to learn it... Where you guys know how to tune a carb, and set timing, you are lightyears ahead of those just getting into EFI for the first time. You know the hardest part about tuning already!

But to each his own. I am sticking to the modern tech for mine, for those with carbs.... Well, have fun!

[JR]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

The benefit of fuel injection isnt economy, it's drivability. Having the computer adjust the air/fuel mixture on the fly instead of having to adjust the carb year round. Knowing it will start in any temperature at the turn of a key. No flooding, running lean, or fouling plugs to worry about.

Im jumping at the chance to add it to mine as soon as everything else is sorted.

[RGA]

Everyone gets beat eventually . I have been working on cars professionally for 20 years and I have lost many battles but I have never lost a war yet. There is way too many things that can go wrong and cause computer controlled engines to not start. You have to completely understand the systems to properly diagnose a problem. Most people just make guesses and some get lucky. Even if it's an educated guess it's still a guess. Unless you do it everyday professionally Pay someone the $100 to tell you what's wrong with it, always.

[Kern Dog]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.
I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 
I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???
They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

YOU are happy with yours??? GREAT, I'll be one of the many that pass you by when you blow a fuse to the electric fuel pump or when your EFI "brain" shorts out. Electronics are great when they work and a huge pain in the crotch when they leave you stranded at night in an UNfamiliar town.

[1974dodgecharger]

Fuel injection is last on our cars, period.  Efi improves mpg and a little power, maybe.  I would take my carb it does not need to be perfect to run....like efi.

[Mike DC]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

[Troy]

I hate carbs! For a while I was like "I want my car to be original". Now if I have to touch another carb it will be to throw it as far as I can to use for target practice. I have lost so much cruising time in the last two years to chasing fuel and carb setup issues that it's ridiculous. Not to mention money! Cost for a really nice carb and fuel system for a musclecar is fairly steep if you ask me. Even if my car got worse mileage I'd still switch to EFI as long as I could hop in and drive whenever I wanted. I'm on my 3rd engine swap in my "toy" Toyota trucks and all have been to newer engines with EFI. The parts are nearly indestructible and pretty easy to diagnose once you figure out what each piece does. In those cases, power was way up and mileage remained the same or showed a slight increase in certain cases. None of those were tunable - just proven factory parts. If you're doing something that never existed (like a 440) then there will be some custom things that you have to play with and a tunable system would certainly make parts of it easier. FAST makes a system that learns and only has a small handheld interface. No laptop needed. I do (now) have a wideband oxygen sensor to help tune my carb'd cars but that's still much more of a pain than straight EFI. I can diagnose those with my cell phone!

Troy

[redmist]

It's always interesting to hear how people can't fix or tune EFI...  Why not??? It's literally no different than a carb. Fuel, Air, Spark..     If you can tune a carb, you should be able to sit down and build a fuel and timing map in about 10 minutes for a good base tune.
I mean you are LITERALLY telling the car how you want it to run! 
I suppose some of the kits might be limited or something???
They are fuel injecting chain saws these days, It's time to step into the now. I bet mike wishes he had fuel injection during Bull Run. It would have been awesome to have duel mapping setup for an economy tune during those long road stretches at the flip of a switch. 

YOU are happy with yours??? GREAT, I'll be one of the many that pass you by when you blow a fuse to the electric fuel pump or when your EFI "brain" shorts out. Electronics are great when they work and a huge pain in the crotch when they leave you stranded at night in an UNfamiliar town.

I might be the guy that passes you by, when your voltage regulator shorts out, or a fuse blows to your ignition system. Or the bulk head connectors melt from your headlights drawing to many amps, or your distributor pickup fails, or your fuel pump diaphragm ruptures, or your ballast resistor decides it's time to let all the smoke out, or your High/Low beam switch decides it's a good time to catch fire or your carb decided to spew gas all over your hot engine from hitting a boiling point in the modern fuel, and on and on and on.... The difference is I can walk into any auto parts store, and get parts for my new fangled EFI.  And if ANYONE is passing me by, it will be people driving modern EFI equipped cars. Take a look around you next time you drive somewhere. Everything is EFI, it's been that way for 30+ years.  

You can try to slice it any way you wan't, but EFI, and modern wiring is much more reliable than an older setup car.

People get scared of EFI, and just start throwing parts at it when something goes wrong... bust out the multi-meter and learn to work on the system, it's all simple 5V and 12V systems. Most of these systems will tell you exactly what is wrong with it.

It's not hard folks!

[HeavyFuel]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

[redmist]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

That's a beautiful car!!!!

Here is a picture under my hood.

Every single wire is in place in this picture except the washer bottle.



And the fuse panel.



I feel MUCH better about the car now. Heck everything is even grounded in the same place, on one stud!


I will admit, if my car had been an R/T Originally I would have restored it to stock as well. I wan't to thrash on this car though, so an R/T didn't make sense to me.

[JR]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

Flaws are inherent in almost anything. Learning how EFI works would be a better alternative than automatically dismissing it forever.

Failure mode with a carbeurated vehicle is just as infuriating.  Including the most aggravating scenario in my experience: the needle sticking, washing down the cylinders with fuel, possibly frying an engine. As has happened multiple times with my old carbs. That is very unlikely with EFI.

The othe perks are nice. automatically adjusting for elevation, humidity, temperature,  driving styles, etc. All on its own without having to pop the hood to change jets, or getting dirty.


Almost every other gearhead group embraced EFI decades ago. If Mopar guys continue to sit around bashing any updated tech since 1974, this side of the car hobby will stay pretty stale.

The majority of this thread sounds like "GGRRRR, TECHNOLOGY SCARY, BAD, MAKES....ME... ANGRY....GRRRR".

[Mike DC]

You can try to slice it any way you wan't, but EFI, and modern wiring is much more reliable than an older setup car.

EFI is one thing, 45yo wiring is something else.  Plenty of carb'd cars have freshened wiring these days.



IMO both sides can be guilty of blowing things out of proportion.  

The way EFI guys describe carbs, carbs could have never have been the standard method of running a vehicle for 80+ years.  Muscle car guys normally tune these cars to do one thing in a very narrow set of conditions.  Meanwhile my mother was able to drive carb'd cars every day for decades with setups that weren't quite so optimized for acceleration.    


EFI has more flexibility though. No arguing with that.  

 

[69wannabe]

I'm not necessarily the type of person to just throw parts at something. I do have a multi-meter and a OBD 1 and OBD 2 scanner and for the pro at this it had a code 42 which was an ASD relay open or short. I checked all the wiring going to and from the relay back to the ecm and it all checked good. Realistically I should have been able to jump the 30 wire which was 12 volts to the 87 wire which was the output for the coil, alternator field and the injectors and it should have ran. The reason I put an ecm on it was the ecm was not grounding the 85 wire and thats why I figured it wouldn't start and there is a possibility that the ecm I purchased could have been bad too. I have several jeep grand cherokee's in my family and when you have an intermittent shut off and it starts back up problem the crank sensor is the first place you go and usually they will not throw a trouble code. I have a very decent understanding of fuel injection and until this one I usually have no problem getting one up and running. The jeeps with the 4.0 only have one of two problems, the fuel pumps fail and the crank sensors fail. I have replaced a few TP sensors that will also not throw a trouble code since the voltage range is usually from 1 to 5 volts and unless it drops above or below that voltage it will not give a check engine light and it can still be bad if there is a glitch as you open and close the throttle. I just would rather keep my old car an old car. I just see myself spending 2 or 3 grand for fuel injection and not liking it and putting my holley back on there so like I said before I really think I would enjoy a passion 5 speed more than EFI. I am also on the jeep forums and a really nice guy on there has tried to help me with the jeep and between both of us tracing wires and checking voltage and grounds it really just didn't make any sense why it wouldn't run. OBD 1 was such a poor system compared to when OBD 2 came out and it was a much better system and easier to diagnose problems too. Not beating down the OBD 1 system since two of my jeeps are 93 models and have been very good vehicles but the 96 and newer jeeps we have just seem to have the better system for sure. I still have no problem with a carburetor. Just like EFI if a carb is right it's just as good to me.

[69wannabe]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.  

Your engine looks right to me!!!!!  

[JB400]

What does a neglected, 23 year old jeep possibly have to do with modern aftermarket fuel injection for our cars?

Microsoft Windows systems were crashing & frustrating us back in the 1990s.  What does that have to do with the quality of Win8 now?  


We're griping about some flaws that are inherent in computerizing things.


Nobody minds EFI when it's working fine.  The problem is that the failure mode is still just as infuriating today as it was 20-some years ago.  

Almost every other gearhead group embraced EFI decades ago. If Mopar guys continue to sit around bashing any updated tech since 1974, this side of the car hobby will stay pretty stale.

The majority of this thread sounds like "GGRRRR, TECHNOLOGY SCARY, BAD, MAKES....ME... ANGRY....GRRRR".

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

[1974dodgecharger]

I started a gofundme for a Efi setup.....4k should cover it.....

[Mike DC]

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

If the non-Mopar customized stuff is so much more creative, then why does this single "stock" description sound so familiar?  


RWD 2dr Detroit bodystyle, 1950s-1980s.
body lowered 1-3" and raked 1-2 degrees
chrome bumpers & window trim retained but some minor trim removed
muscle-era (or rooted) V8
Either tremec 5spd kit (manual) or OEM 1980s-1990s 4spd OD (auto)
Ford 9" based aftermarket axle
C5 vette front suspension
Mustang-based steering rack
Painless wiring
Vintage Air AC
Ididit/flaming river GM-based steering column


IMO the average project car in the bigger brands is not more "creative" than Mopars on the whole.  They still mostly prefer a single stock setup too.  But their stock setup just happens to be mostly aftermarket versions of OEM stuff instead of actual OEM stuff.  

 

[Homerr]

One of the reasons I love my car is the 'old tech' that makes it go, although it can be frustrating at times.

It has a couple small mods like electronic ignition/voltage regulator, etc.... but it probably won't ever get EFI.

Some cars just need to stay period correct.   

Your awesome looking engine bay + this for best of both worlds!



Self-tuning:  http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/efi-systems/ez-efi-2-0-self-tuning-fuel-injection

[JB400]

Outside of the introduction of some reproduction parts, I say it is pretty stale now.  After talking to some venders that deal with the "other" cars, they're under the impression that all Mopar people want their cars stock.  I don't exactly want my car to be "stock", but I don't want the parts on it to make it look stupid either.  What works for a Camaro or Mustang, doesn't always work for a Mopar.  That 68 Charger from the Roadster Shop is a perfect example.  But, not too many designers are Mopar people or think like the original designers of these cars, so we're stuck in a rut at moment, imo.  At least there are some venders that do offer updated parts for us.

If the non-Mopar customized stuff is so much more creative, then why does this single "stock" description sound so familiar? 


RWD 2dr Detroit bodystyle, 1950s-1980s.
body lowered 1-3" and raked 1-2 degrees
chrome bumpers & window trim retained but some minor trim removed
muscle-era (or rooted) V8
Either tremec 5spd kit (manual) or OEM 1980s-1990s 4spd OD (auto)
Ford 9" based aftermarket axle
C5 vette front suspension
Mustang-based steering rack
Painless wiring
Vintage Air AC
Ididit/flaming river GM-based steering column


IMO the average project car in the bigger brands is not more "creative" than Mopars on the whole.  They still mostly prefer a single stock setup too.  But their stock setup just happens to be mostly aftermarket versions of OEM stuff instead of actual OEM stuff. 

 

You just laid out the blue prints for a shoe box Chevy built 20 years ago.  Only reason most of those parts find their way on a muscle car is because this group of people that hopped on the tri five Chevy craze was to stay in business when that fad faded.  I can't remember the last time I seen Project X in Popular Hot Rodding.  Problem with your list is, among the other brands, not very many of those are even used any more, at least among the pro touring crowd, which is probably the largest muscle car group today.  Most of them are using parts that have been developed in the last 10-15 years, whereas in the Mopar hobby, we're still mostly stuck using 40 year old parts.  It hasn't been until the last 4 or 5 years that we managed to get some good suspension parts.  Nothing wrong with using 40 year old parts, but automotive technology has progressed extensively since then.

[JR]

I agree 100% JB400. Very well said.

[Mike DC]

It's the blueprints for a shoebox Chevy built 20 years ago . . . and it's still the blueprints for a '69 Camaro built today.  And a '75 Nova.  Etc.  

I know there is other stuff on the market for GMs too.  But I'm talking about their average car project.  The Mopar world doesn't get bashed so much for never having anything cutting edge in our entire hobby, we get bashed for our average project being so dated.  


I just don't see the big creativity improvement among the GM crowd.  I see higher tech because of the flat-out necessity:  Their factory stuff had less potential for improvement than Mopar's did at the raw design phase.  That, and their cars had removable frames/subframes which took away a lot of the incentive to avoid hacking on them like we have in the Mopar hobby.  There was also GM's huge production numbers ---> more surviving bodies ---> more repro parts earlier and less rusty options to pick from.

It's a lot easier to get tired of a stock setup when you haven't had to work so hard and wait so many years just to get it. 

[Troy]

Just watching one of Eastwood's "Hands-On Cars" videos and there's a segment on a '59 Impala with an Inglese/FAST fuel injected LS 427 that has 625 HP and gets 16 MPG and can run on mid grade gas. (I'm assuming it has an OD transmission.) Even if you could approach that with mileage with carbs, the tuning ability wouldn't be in the same league. Best I got with my 440 Six Pack has been just under 16 mpg - but it was mostly stock, drinking Premium fuel, and running "highway friendly" rear gears (2.76) specifically for that trip. And the carbs got all wacky shortly thereafter and haven't run right since. Not to mention the fuel evaporation problem if the car sits more than a week! I've never come close to that mileage with a 4bbl but have surpassed it with my small block 2bbl that had trouble getting out of its own way. I see fuel injection as a way of having your cake and eating it too. You can get good mileage and run cheap gas OR load up on race gas and spend the day at the track without touching a wrench. Hot starts? Any time. Cold starts? No problem. Ditto with altitude and weather changes. I can't stand having to piddle around under the hood every other time I want to take the car out for a spin. I love factory correct and hot-rodded cars but I have come to the conclusion that I don't want to have to drive one all the time. It's a good thing that I have multiple cars to choose from.

Troy

[69wannabe]

The fast 2.0 efi looks to be a pretty good system, car craft actually done a efi shoot out and I think the fast 2.0 was the best out of three other systems. The pic's of the sequential fuel system look nice and I have read where it all started and honestly I do not have the electronic skills to even begin to start a project like that. If it took you four months to get it on there it would take me four years!!!! I could most likely do a store bought EFI and turn out ok with it. I really didn't have fuel mileage in mind when I was building the car, it's a muscle car and as long as it moves pretty quickly and runs good fuel mileage wasn't something I was looking for. It's a weekend cruiser anyway. Would never use my charger as a daily driver at this point. Even with efi it wouldn't get better than 12mpg anyway I don't think. Was actually venting and very frustrated with a jeep wrangler that I could not get to run, I actually do not feel to bad about it now since it been at the dealer for a week now and it still does not run. That is the first vehicle that has ever left here that I could not figure something out on in over 20 years. I still like my charger with the old double pumper and firecore dizzy on there, drove it sunday before the rain hit and it ran great. I am not a EFI hater but that jeep really pi$$ed me off!!! I have decided that if I decide to have a fuel injected muscle car it will be a newer model challenger R/T!!!!!! 

[bill440rt]

I do not agree with the "stale" comment as far as parts selection goes. There are more aftermarket goodies available for these cars now than ever before: suspension kits, electrical, gauges, interior, sound systems, brakes, etc etc. Modern Hemi and OD trans swaps are now commonplace, with all the harnesses & components readily available to drop them in.
EFI systems in all sorts of configurations are out there from several manufacturers. I personally would have loved to have used the EFI 6-pack setup that's out there, unfortunately it just wasn't in my budget. More than happy with the carbs for now, but... maybe someday...
It seems every week there's something else coming out for these cars. Either aftermarket or reproduction parts. It's a pretty good time to be a Mopar enthusiast, IMHO. 

[BrianShaughnessy]

I'd love to have an injection system on either or both Chargers...  but it's not happening anytime soon.

If I've have never got Sinnamon back then Betty would probably be injected... maybe an injected 6 pack by now....  But I do have Sinnamon and for now that's just getting a holley  800 spreadbore. 

[Cooter]

One has to remember most enthusiasts want everything nowadays in a 'kit' form. (Blister pack hot rodders).
Kudos for doing that set for $2k, but for the average carb guy, intake/carb just to cruise still crushes it in price. Further, I highly doubt anybody's gonna offer that set up for $2k in plug and play kit form.(top intake alone is more than that modded)

Not that enthusiasts can't Ness. Understand F.I., cost is still king. I've worked on f.I. for over 25 years. I understand it fine, enough that in order to keep price in line with carbs, one has to use junkyard set up.

Not an easy sell in 'kit' form. IMO, TB set ups are just for the fact you can call it injected. Sequential PORT injection is "real" fuel injection in my book. It's not limited to intake runner design. Here again, cost goes up enormously because of this...

[six-tee-nine]

Nothing wrong with a carb on a classic for occasional use.
Nothing wrong with fuel injection either.

My Mercedes 280 W108 was fuel injected from the factory over 40 years ago. That is cool imo, even after 4 weeks or more just turn they key, no mess or pumping the pedal, fired right up every single time, steady 900 rpm idle after 10 sec.

I think its alot of money to have a good fuel injection system on say a 440 compared to a carb for how little we use them.
but if you use your car alot and go pro touring with big rims and 6 speed trans and all the other stuff then i say dont leave the fuel injection behind....

[69wannabe]

Nothing wrong with a carb on a classic for occasional use.
Nothing wrong with fuel injection either.

My Mercedes 280 W108 was fuel injected from the factory over 40 years ago. That is cool imo, even after 4 weeks or more just turn they key, no mess or pumping the pedal, fired right up every single time, steady 900 rpm idle after 10 sec.

I think its alot of money to have a good fuel injection system on say a 440 compared to a carb for how little we use them.
but if you use your car alot and go pro touring with big rims and 6 speed trans and all the other stuff then i say dont leave the fuel injection behind....

Well said six-tee-nine!!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ummmmm....    500+HP - 23mpg....      Fires up every time, idles in any weather, and looks different

I appreciate carbs and old school technology but in the grand scheme if i'm driving the car a lot you cant beat EFI



As soon as I get back from the sandbox next year I'll be converting from the factory PCM to a MSIII kit to run the hemi - giving better tunability

[Mike DC]

       
                   
In most cases I think EFI's mileage gain is a ridiculous concern for these cars.  EFI won't make them get good mileage, it will only help make it slightly less bad in the big picture.   A lot of times we're talking about saving $50-100 per year with a car that's eaten $40,000 to build. 

 
Daily car?  Project car that sees 10,000 miles a year?  That's another story. 
 




As for the car not starting after a few days with carbs, I've wondered why nobody has come up with a setup to beat that one.  Seems like a method of conveniently plugging the fuel bowls' air holes would solve it. 

[69wannabe]

Well said Mike, I didn't expect any good fuel mileage when I built the 493. Maybe my car is exceptional when it comes to starting it. I can let mine sit for a couple of weeks and it starts up pretty good with the holley on it. I just pump the pedal three times and hit the switch and usually it starts right up. It may flutter and go dead but I just pump the pedal one more time and hit the switch again and it starts up and I usually hold the rpm's around 1500 for a min or so an once it smooths out after a min or so I let it idle til the temp gauge starts moving and i'm good to go after that. I don't have a working choke it is just fixed to be open at all times. It actually starts better than this in the warmer months of the year, usually just pump the pedal twice and it starts up and just after a min or two it's ready to go. The only time I have to start it twice is in the colder months. It was in the low 40's when I started it this morning and it started up good and I only had to start it up once. Warmed it up for a couple of mins and took off down the road.