1968 Charger + subframe connectors questions

[gtx6970]

If you put them on,
Which one  did you use and why.
Are you happy with them , what did you have to do to make them fit.
I am primarily interested in full length versions that contour to the floorpans ,but may consider alternatives.
If you used the contour fit versions how did you deal with the parking brake cable routing


I am well aware of the benefits, but my customer needs to weigh the costs versus gains issue

[Charger-Bodie]

I used xv full contoured style on my former Dayton clone , I have also used the us car tool ones and there were only small differences. Both were great , but did need fine tuning to fit floor nice. As for the e brake cable, I weld a pipe diagnally for the cable to run through. It is nessesary to mock up the cable to get it so it doesnt rub inside the pipe.

[HPP]

The addition of any type of subframe connector is a significant added value. Not only to they reduce the beam bending motion of the car if ever used at the drag strip, but they also firm up the chassis and allow the suspension to work more efficiently, even in a cruiser type car. By firming up the uni-body, they also help lock in panel gaps, prevent door drooping, removes squeaks and rattle, and keep windows sealing tightly.

Even the basic $130 1x2 bolt in style provide much needed bracing. If you weld in the ends, its even better. These also can be removed more easily in the future than the full length weld in style. The weld in contour ones at $175  will create a factory look, but may require some massaging to fit perfectly.

In my book, that is a huge cost vs benefit payback.

[Charger4404spd]

Do they get welded to the floors also, or just each end?

[BrianShaughnessy]

USCar > XV.   I sent back a set of XV's as they didn't come anywhere close to fitting correctly.   Granted the USCar also took trimming but they were a much closer fit.

Otherwise I'm still happy with the old set of MP's welded onto on Black Betty.  There's no problems with E-brake or fuel / brake lines with MP's.   Which maybe their greatest asset.

I managed to sneak rear brake lines on with the USCar's but I had to cut the 3/8 fuel line and use a connector ahead of the T-bar crossmember.   I did sneak the 1/4" return line in.    Lengthening the channel for the lines to pass through would have probably been a good idea but since the bottom was already tinted truck bed liner coated... well...  I'm living with it.   FYI I used stainless lines ... maybe regular steel would be easier to manipulate ?    I also used Eastwood internal frame rail coating after they were welded on. 

[MxRacer855]

Good pic. We welded my US Car Tool sub-frame connectors all of the way through from front to back just like the pic shows. Great fit. No modification needed. 

[Mike DC]

SCs are a no-brainer, but people also focus too much on fixing that area at the expense of the other low hanging fruit.  It doesn't take huge heavy SCs going through the floor just to make somewhere else become the weakest link. 

Don't cut the floor, but do put something decent (and welded on) between the subframes.   Once that is done, start looking at other areas of the chassis to control flex.  The factory didn't even use SCs as the first step they took to stiffen the cars - they started with torque box plating. 


SCs, torque boxing + lower radiator support bracing + shock-tower-to-firewall bracing = gets all the low hanging fruit without much downside.  US Car Tool makes all this stuff. 

[Kern Dog]

"Low hanging fruit"
Just what we need here... MORE vegetarians.   

[Troy]

Bill, I have the US Car Tool ones in my bronze 68. You're more than welcome to come over and check them out. I think I actually have another set in the garage too. Brian did the welding and also the modification for the emergency brake cable. Pictures here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,64477.msg721598.html#msg721598

Troy

[1974dodgecharger]

are all SC essentially made equal?  Hotchkis vs cartool does same job?  Cartool is half the price...

[bill440rt]

Otherwise I'm still happy with the old set of MP's welded onto on Black Betty.  There's no problems with E-brake or fuel / brake lines with MP's.   Which maybe their greatest asset.

I have the MP ones on my '69 as well. It's the only car of ones I own (that don't have subframe connectors) that I can jack up the car on either end (or on a lift) and still be able to open & close the doors without any body flex. So, I'd say they are doing their job just fine.
I ran the parking brake cable over the connector and wrapped it in a piece of vacuum hose tubing where it rubs so it doesn't chaffe. So far, so good.

[mopar4don]

MP's???

[RIDELIKEHELL]

Here's mine..page 7
....XV..
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,48718.150.html

[HPP]

are all SC essentially made equal?  Hotchkis vs cartool does same job?  Cartool is half the price...

They all perform the same job and all achieve it pretty equally. Most tend to have different mounting methods/locations to best suit customer demand for component and road clearance, convienance, or lack of, for installation as well as differences in configuration once installed. I'm sure there are some subtle variations on actual performance between them all, but no one has put all possible combinations on a rig to test the actual acheivements of each configuration. With that said, even the lowliest  style with a small cross section and thin wall tubing contributes significantly to firming up teh chassis. Review the above comment about the door opening when jacking up a corner of the car as proof they work.

MP's???

Mopar Performace, the high performance parts division, formerly known as Direct Connection, and decidely more performance oriented than the traditional Mopar Parts replacement parts program.

[mopar4don]

Thanks, I am planning on installing them on my resto, so I am interested in all I can learn about sub frame connectors and torq boxes!

[wingcar]

Just wondering......I checked out the US Car Tool site and they now offer bolt-in style as well.  Has anyone used these and are they as good an option as the weld-in style?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Just wondering......I checked out the US Car Tool site and they now offer bolt-in style as well.  Has anyone used these and are they as good an option as the weld-in style?

http://store.uscartool.com/66-70-B-Body-Bolt-on-Frame-Connectors_p_87.html


Not that I'm aware of.   I'd be rather skeptical of them myself.   And at $400 a pair... feel free to be the first.   

They don't work with torque box cars so the only cars I can actually see NOT wanting to weld up would be 'some' factory torque box cars ( ie:  hemi / wing ) so my only conclusion is to say why bother ?    Weld up repro torque boxes and SFC's and go have some fun.

[gtx6970]

I keep wondering if putting them on while up on it's side will cause issues ?

[Troy]

I keep wondering if putting them on while up on it's side will cause issues ?

Maybe? Most recommend to install them while the car is sitting with weight on the suspension. I noticed a major flexibility on my Challenger when it was on the rotisserie. Fixed it by flipping it upside down (my roof must have been more solid than the bottom at that point). Just because it is sitting flat though it doesn't mean the car is "square". Once you weld those things in it will be "set" in whatever position so you definitely don't want to be crabbing down the road. Better than riding with one corner high - but still not ideal.

Mine were fitted to the rolling shell with the suspension loaded. It would have been better with a drive train and interior but that wasn't a possibility at the time.

Troy

[tan top]

  I welded mine in while the empty body shell was on  3 foot high jack stands  , put the doors / latches on temporaly  & adjusted / lined up . before welding !

used ART torque front & rear , & their frame connectors ,  2" x 2" x1/4" box , this was long before  the laser cut shaped sections came out  , although if I were to do it again today  , would still use the 2" x 2" box

[gtx6970]

Mine were fitted to the rolling shell with the suspension loaded. It would have been better with a drive train and interior but that wasn't a possibility at the time.

Troy

[/quote]

Thanks Troy,
I talked to a buddy of mine who builds drag cars for a hobby.
He said to at absolutely  get it off the rotator , sit it on jackstands ( the more the better) then hang he doors and align them. ( no need to hang the doghouse ) then fit and weld the connectors in . Going to cut in the top of the cowl so I can weld the upper cowl in today. Then off the rotator it comes ( again )

[firefighter3931]

Here is a good read on a subframe install on a 69 Hemi Charger ;

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41726.0.html


I used the MP bolt-in connectors and welded them in.....happy with the results. 


Ron

[HPP]

I talked to a buddy of mine who builds drag cars for a hobby.
He said to at absolutely  get it off the rotator , sit it on jackstands ( the more the better) then hang he doors and align them. ( no need to hang the doghouse ) then fit and weld the connectors in . Going to cut in the top of the cowl so I can weld the upper cowl in today. Then off the rotator it comes ( again )

IMO, thats a bit of extra work if you are already all apart. I would agree with setting it rightside up on 6-8 jackstands, but, if you shim the stands so some cross and diagonal measurements on the sub-frames and rockers show the uni-body to be level and square, then you should be fine. If you really want to get detailed with the install, then you can verify all the component measurements with the FSM before you put them in and have a frame shop tweak it to ideal if anything is off.

[oldcarnut]

I got a question that might seem stupid but I haven't seen it asked before and haven't seen any in person to have any experience. If say the US sfc were welded at the ends but something like angle iron pieces were welded to the sfc sides along the length like brackets flush to the floor and bolted to the floor in appropriate spots, what would that effect be compared to welded all the way? Just thinking maybe it would keep it somewhat removable for later but give more rigidity than not welded at all.

[fy469rtse]

I used the us car tool type, made myself , because I didn't know about them,
After contouring to fit floor,
I have always added another flat strip in top just down below contoured edges,
This creates a total box section not relying it to be welded to floors, even though I did,
Plug welds to look like factory spot welds,
Well that was the plan, welding skills are getting better every day lol
But if you put connectors in , torque boxes are a must,
The two just work great together.