Finally on to the motor! 1st step: survey the damage : OH NO!!! NEW PICS

[timmycharger]

As with the body, funds are dictating the direction of the motor as initially I wanted to have this motor rebuilt with all new parts, but looks like if I plan on driving this car in the next year or so, Im going to have to try to work with what I have.

This 440 was rebuilt professionally by a shop in the mid 90's, its .030, stock replacement pistons and six pack rods/crank/damper. I put very little miles on this motor, but it did see lots of track time and I definitely did not baby it. It ran very well before taking it off the road in 02, the motor was pulled and put on a stand and turned over every few years to keep everything moving. The plugs were never pulled and it was left assembled so everything stayed clean.

My goal is to clean everything spotless, give it a repaint, bolt on a set of Edelbrock heads and put back everything that was there before including leaving the 484 MP cam, Hughes rockers/pushrods.  

I have 1 concern about this motor, about a year before pulling it off the road, I changed torque converters and got the incorrect weighted one for a six pack engine which I determined after about 6 months of driving, my harmonic balancer came unscrewed and was wobbly. I ended up getting a new one but didn't put many more miles on it after that.  Im hoping the bearings are ok, but plan on pulling a cap or 2 and checking them with plastigauge to be sure they are still in spec. Not sure what else I can do.  

Check out the pics below of the lifters, all but 2 were perfect, the 2 in the pics have a small ring in the middle, is this from me incorrectly setting the rockers adjustments? are they ok still? The cylinders look great, no lip on the edge and some have the cross hatch pattern still. Ill be posting more once I get into the bottom end more but Im hoping to use this lump still.

[timmycharger]

lifters

[timmycharger]

few more

[timmycharger]

forgot, some shots of the cam lobes

[jlatessa]

IIRC, with the six-pack rods, and everything else stock weight, you need both the eccentric weighted
balancer and a weighted converter.

Or you can use the offset weighted flex plate from B&M for neutral converters.

Joe

[timmycharger]

Thanks Joe, I do have the correct balancer, the one with the horshoe ish type shape on the front of it. Im converting to a 4 speed so m assuming the flywheel is specific too?

[don duick]

sounds like you may need to re balance if replacing flywheel and balancer. 

[timmycharger]

Well, I pulled the pan and saw some scary stuff. I know I did a few cam changes while the motor was in the car and did a terrible job keeping the old RTV out of the oily part of the motor. Im wondering if that's why a couple of my lifters were scored, probably was dying for oil pressure. 

As you can see in the pics, the pickup is almost plugged with RTV and you can also see little shiny slivers. I cleaned them and laid them out, the biggest piece Is about 3/4 inch long and skinny. I have no idea what this could be, I plan on looking at all the main and rod bearings as my first step, would I need to pull the cam to look at the cam bearings too?

Im shocked by what I saw, I guess I wasn't as careful a dozen years ago 

[firefighter3931]

Definitely pull the cam and inspect the cam bearings 

It'll be interesting to see the crank/rod journals 



Ron

[tan top]

 oh  crikey       

[fy469rtse]

yep big end and main caps will tell the story,
at worst you have it already pulled down for rebuild,

[timmycharger]

Looks like Ive got some work ahead of me. Im in no super rush, got to take care of some stuff on the daily driver then Ill give it a good teardown and will take lots of pics. Should be very interesting, Im hoping Its just a bearing that can be replaced.  If its just that and the cam bearings look good Im hoping to get away with not having the rotating assembly balanced by getting the correct flywheel for a 440 six pack bottom end, wouldn't they cancel each other out? If its got to be balanced then so be it but then where does it end, Ill want to replace the rods etc and then Im cutting into my transmission fund 

What was strange is when I turned the crank with the breaker bar, it was smooth throughout except for one spot that had a clank sound, I located it to be on just one piston where it feels like piston is loose. That could be the rod with the bad bearing but it wiggles just slightly when it clanks.. who knows Ill know when I get in there, for now Im just guessing. Also, should the rods sort of slide a tiny amount side to side on the crank? All the rods do that.  I do recall a slight tick in the motor but I thought it was the rockers.

More to come in a few weeks 

[Challenger340]

Looks like Ive got some work ahead of me. Im in no super rush, got to take care of some stuff on the daily driver then Ill give it a good teardown and will take lots of pics. Should be very interesting, Im hoping Its just a bearing that can be replaced.  If its just that and the cam bearings look good Im hoping to get away with not having the rotating assembly balanced by getting the correct flywheel for a 440 six pack bottom end, wouldn't they cancel each other out? If its got to be balanced then so be it but then where does it end, Ill want to replace the rods etc and then Im cutting into my transmission fund 

What was strange is when I turned the crank with the breaker bar, it was smooth throughout except for one spot that had a clank sound, I located it to be on just one piston where it feels like piston is loose. That could be the rod with the bad bearing but it wiggles just slightly when it clanks.. who knows Ill know when I get in there, for now Im just guessing. Also, should the rods sort of slide a tiny amount side to side on the crank? All the rods do that.  I do recall a slight tick in the motor but I thought it was the rockers.

More to come in a few weeks 

If a bearing has gotten bad enough to need "replaced" ? .... typically by that time the Crank is gonna be fawked as well.

If it was running for any length of time with an imbalance condition ? ... inspect the main bearings carefully as they typically take the majority of the "hit" from imbalance.... that, and look at the mating surface on #4 main cap as well ? Black marks on the #4 Cap mating surface is indicative of cap walk, which is bound to flake the bearing somewhat.

IMO, Trying to match stuff up "close" enough for 6-pack parts, without actually balancing the entire rotating assembly ?...  is a crap shoot at best ?
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.... just say'in, there is a right way.... and a wrong way.

"Clank" sounds while rotating ain't good ? Best locate or diagnose that also before moving ahead ?

Yes, the Rods should move "side to side" in pairs on their respective journals ~.015" to .020" ? That's normal and won't result in any noise in the engine.

I feel your pain.... but once an engine has hurt itself, especially one that is capable of sufficient power to do so again, in my experience anyways, band-aid fixes don't last very long ?

[timmycharger]

Looks like Ive got some work ahead of me. Im in no super rush, got to take care of some stuff on the daily driver then Ill give it a good teardown and will take lots of pics. Should be very interesting, Im hoping Its just a bearing that can be replaced.  If its just that and the cam bearings look good Im hoping to get away with not having the rotating assembly balanced by getting the correct flywheel for a 440 six pack bottom end, wouldn't they cancel each other out? If its got to be balanced then so be it but then where does it end, Ill want to replace the rods etc and then Im cutting into my transmission fund 

What was strange is when I turned the crank with the breaker bar, it was smooth throughout except for one spot that had a clank sound, I located it to be on just one piston where it feels like piston is loose. That could be the rod with the bad bearing but it wiggles just slightly when it clanks.. who knows Ill know when I get in there, for now Im just guessing. Also, should the rods sort of slide a tiny amount side to side on the crank? All the rods do that.  I do recall a slight tick in the motor but I thought it was the rockers.

More to come in a few weeks 

If a bearing has gotten bad enough to need "replaced" ? .... typically by that time the Crank is gonna be fawked as well.

If it was running for any length of time with an imbalance condition ? ... inspect the main bearings carefully as they typically take the majority of the "hit" from imbalance.... that, and look at the mating surface on #4 main cap as well ? Black marks on the #4 Cap mating surface is indicative of cap walk, which is bound to flake the bearing somewhat.

IMO, Trying to match stuff up "close" enough for 6-pack parts, without actually balancing the entire rotating assembly ?...  is a crap shoot at best ?
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.... just say'in, there is a right way.... and a wrong way.

"Clank" sounds while rotating ain't good ? Best locate or diagnose that also before moving ahead ?

Yes, the Rods should move "side to side" in pairs on their respective journals ~.015" to .020" ? That's normal and won't result in any noise in the engine.

I feel your pain.... but once an engine has hurt itself, especially one that is capable of sufficient power to do so again, in my experience anyways, band-aid fixes don't last very long ?

Great feedback, I hope to know more once I start taking things apart.  I guess what I can hope for is minimal damage to the crank/rods as Id rather not replace any of the parts if possible. 

Lets say that its one bearing that has failed and there is minimal crank damage, would it make sense to send the rotating assembly to the shop along with the damper and flywheel (once aquired) for balancing and polishing of crank (hopefully damage is small enough for just a polish) then just put it all back in and not touch the cylinders? would I need to re ring it now?

My over all plan was to run this motor for a few years while building my dream motor which is a stroked 440 so i dont want to drop too much money into this one.  The car has been off the road since 02 and I am trying to get this running/driving this spring.

[Challenger340]

If you are polishing any more than "one-ten-thousandth" of an inch.... you are doing it wrong.

If one Crank bearing has "failed".... I suspect the crank will be damaged more than "one-ten-thousandth" ?

Rent a "chicken-Ball" type hone and scratch the Cylinders up a bit if are replacing the rings ?
Even if you are not replacing the rings ? scratch them up a bit, check ring end gaps with the rings squared up in the bores..... .026" - .028" will still run OK.

No cheap way to fix these things when it comes to Cranks and Rods, in my experience.... it just bites you back harder later.

IMO,
Do it right... or just don't do it at all.

[frederick]

Maybe it's just the angle of the photo, but the 2nd lifter looks very concave?


If it is indeed similar to the one below, you would need new lifters + camshaft and a very good cleaning of the engine. The swarf from the worn lifter would have gone through your engine.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Holy $H!T   I've never seen a lifter that bad....     

[timmycharger]

Woah! that is one concave looking lifer, no thankfully none of mine are even remotely concave, just 3 with a sort of scuff in the middle.   Still have not had a chance to pull anything apart, been very busy making sure the daily driver is good to go, ill have at it next week hopefully and will share pics for sure.

[timmycharger]

Ok, had a chance to dig into the motor today, I believe I found where the metal shavings came from. See pics of the side of the bearing, must be cause of the imbalance, moving forward and backward?    The crank doesn't look too horrible, no nicks anywhere, slight lines noticed but nothing that you can feel. The bearings on the other hand, all look pretty much the same, the main ones have tiny grooves that you can barely feel with a fingernail, and the rod ones look much better.  I didn't see any powdery metallic oil anywhere. If I balance everything would those bearings be ok, replace just the one pictured?

Also, couple of pistons were very, very hard to move around, 5 out of 8 when dropped down were free, meaning the rod/wrist pin was moving smoothly. The 3 others were very hard to move, and 1 was almost stuck (pictured) I note scraping on the skirt of that piston as well, not sure what that's about, the cylinder looks ok, looks like it scraped way on the bottom of the block. 

Lastly, are the main caps thread locked? I wouldn't think so but check out the threads, almost all of them had it. feels like putty or something, definitely not metal.  Any feedback as always is appreciated.

[timmycharger]

more

[timmycharger]

 

[timmycharger]

I ended up spraying some penetrating oil on the pins of the stuck pistons but I don't think its going to do anything. I didn't notice this before, but the entire pin is moving vs. the end of the rod meaning the rod is stuck to the pin. Ill double check the others again, but I was able to slide one back and forth on the crank on one that was still in the block, attached to the crank. Ill check all of them to make sure.

Can this be done on a regular shop press or is this also one for the shop?

I also have an entire set of brand new main bearings that came with the motor, they are the same brand of what is in there and are also stamped .020.   Since the crank doesn't look that bad I was thinking of changing the thrust bearing with the new one, plastigauge it and if its in spec, go with it. Im having the crank/flywheel/damper balanced once the flywheel comes in so I have plenty of time to think about it.

[Challenger340]

So much for that Piston... it's fawked !
Bearings are flaked....

IMO,
By the time you dis-assemble everything, take the Pistons off the Rods for Balancing etc., etc., replace 1 ? 2 ? Pistons ? etc., Pin-Fitting ..check rod sizing.. Re-Honing, Rings ?... and on and on.... might as well just start a new build ?
This Engine appears to have lived a "Full" Life ?
I don't even know if you can still get replacement "6 pack Pistons" individually ?
Sry for saying so....

[fy469rtse]

i agree with challenger 340,
good starting point , but the start of a rebuild , full rebuild including machining, new parts etc, made my mind up well before i got through all photos, piston shot did it for me
dont cut cnrs , this will bite back and soon , so dont waste your time and money

[Dino]

Well that bites.  This is the time where you sit down, swear a bit, take a deep breath and forgot any former plans and ideas so you can focus on the new options.  I know all too wel that funds are not always available, been there done that, but the goal here is to get your hard earned money's worth by doing it once and doing it right.

[timmycharger]

Thanks guys, I hear you on what you are saying. I don't mind putting in a few bucks if it will get me a few years.  My first plan was to start a new build with a new rotating assembly but after 12 years of restoring this car, my plan changed to just cleaning this motor and putting a set of Eddy heads on it and build the motor I want over the next few years and when my sons are a little bigger, can help me swap it out.

Id say this motor lived a very full life, not many miles actually but I beat the snot out of it at the track.    I accelerated its destruction with the imbalance, and several 6500 rpm shifts.

For the heck of it, Ill have the shop take a look and give me a quote, if its not ridiculous, Ill consider it. This time around it wont see anything near that kind of rpm.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Sometimes you can get by with freshening up an engine with fairly good results for your intended purpose, but in this case I suggest you listen to Challenger340.   Your engine definitely has issues. Anything other than a full rebuild would be a waste of your time and money.

[BSB67]

Maybe I just like to be different. 

I don't see anything that scares me in those pictures.  Lube up the pins and work the rod/piston back and forth to loosen up the tight ones. Hand polish the crank , ball hone the cylinders, and put new rings and bearings in it and put it back together.  The thing I would be a little concerned about is the rods/bolts.  Keep it below 5600 rpm and don't let it detonate, and I think you'll be fine.

[fy469rtse]

from above post,
your not in a hurry, do it properly, going in the car in back ground ?you have time
do it as you can afford, in stages
new pistons , rods first
blocked honed to match those pistons, torque plates used , basics just to ensure good uniformed compression,
after market lighter rods will enable it to spin up quicker, you will be able to re balance crank rods pistons when you take block in for basic machining,
crank polished , if bottom of cylinder bores match the skirts on those pistons , will need doing

[Roctania]

"the entire pin is moving vs. the end of the rod meaning the rod is stuck to the pin."

Isn't that the proper method?
Most engines have the pin tight in the rod, and floating in the piston with under 0.001" clearance.
Unless the pin is floating in both, then you need rings to prevent the pins from moving endwise.

The piston looks scuffed like it ran hot or was too large for its bore.  Forged pistons require more bore clearance than some machinists think.  That got me once, on an engine I bought used. I insisted the machinist hone to 0.0045-0.0055" clearance and despite his dire warnings of noisy operation, it works fine. 

The scuffing can also lead to heating, which worsens the scuffing, etc.