Honing plates

[Ghoste]

Actually option three is just kidding.  But I did wonder where some of you, especially the professional builders, stand on the overall use of honing torque plates.

[Challenger340]

I dunno what you mean about a "square" Block though ?

The Torque Plate simulates the cylinder "distortion" created from the Head being Torqued down onto the block.... which allows you to keep the Cylinder "Straighter and Rounder" during the Honing process.
Yep... bolting the Head on will distort the Cylinder not just at the top.... but on many... right down the whole length of the Cylinder !

Pumping heated Honing Oil into the Block @ 180* also helps simulate "operating" temp distortions.... but I don't do THAT no more, the fumes were HORRIBLE !

In bygone days... with huge cast pistons fit at .003+"... and cast rings running in.... LEADED Fuels... Zinc/Phosphoros/Moly in the old oils... I should say the rings "LAPPING" themselves into the cylinder walls on 180 grit wall finishes like the factory used to do,
well...
didn't really matter much.... ANYTHING would seal OK.

Nowadays though.... with most pistons being of Cam & Barrel design for these OLD Engine Blocks, more thermal rigidity, better/harder ring technologies, cleaner Oils,
IMO.... Torque-plate Honing these old design Blocks is pretty much a must.... not to mention the higher cylinder finish requirements for today's rings.

[Ghoste]

Square as in everything straight to the crank.  Could be local lingo but it just means crank and cylinder bores are precise.

[Cooter]

I prefer to use torque plates. I too thought it was BS until I torque a head on an old block and took before and after cylinder measurements....holy crap the walls move around......alot.

[BSB67]

I find your wording odd as well.  I do understand the term square for things like this, but don't see the relationship with honing or using the honing plate as it squares nothing.

Whether it is a good idea to use a honing plate is really a matter of personnel choice.  Obviously they will run just fine without as every one built was without the use of a torque plate.  If you are on a tight budget, and the possibility of leaving a little on the table does not matter, you don't need it.

[Ghoste]

Okay well change the wording to whatever works for you then.

[BSB67]

Only if you want us to understand

[Ghoste]

You answered the question so you understood as much as I needed I guess and I appreciate it. 

[John_Kunkel]

As of today, I'm the only "not needed on the street" vote and I'll stand by it. For the added expense you'll never feel the performance gain in the old buttmeter.

[green69rt]

Ok Ghoste, just a little more info for those of use that are not engine builders,  what kind of cost and time is involved using a torque plate?  If you are honing the bores anyway then it seems that it's just the time to install the thing (assuming you have or can beg, borrow or steal one.)  Is it just a small thing or a big deal to perform?   And are they expensive and is there a one-size-fits-all or one for each block?   Curious minds want to know....

[Ghoste]

They aren't cheap for the number of times the average person would use one (400 bucks approx.) and I certainly understand the principle and benefit of using them (thank you for the con vote btw John, it merits consideration).  Around where I live there aren't any machine shops that have one for a B Chrysler.  So the question is driven from wondering if I try and seek out a shop that does and pay for the associated costs or buy one and make them use it here.  If there were a wave of folks swearing by them here then I'd have to consider option B.  I'm thinking based on the feedback so far that I should first of all try and find a place not hundreds of miles away or across the border where I could get it doen.
It sucks to be able to look across the river at Detroit and know the number of quality affordable performance machine shops there are there but be forced to deal with the red tape and outstretched hands of customs that the border creates.

[green69rt]

I can see that they're not cheap for the occasional user, and I understand some of you dilemma.  Hard choice... but there are a lot of hard choices in this hobby.

[BSB67]

Obviously they will run just fine without as every one built was without the use of a torque plate.  If you are on a tight budget, and the possibility of leaving a little on the table does not matter, you don't need it.

??

[Challenger340]

Edited

[John_Kunkel]

As noted earlier, if the block isn't brought up to operating temperature during the final honing process with block plates the bore will move around and I've never been too sure that the block plates do actually simulate the cylinder "distortion" created from the head being torqued down...a piece of dense steel versus a piece of cast iron is not much of a simulation IMHO.

[Cooter]

With many "street" engines in the range of 600-1000 HP today, money well spent IMO.

[Ghoste]

As noted earlier, if the block isn't brought up to operating temperature during the final honing process with block plates the bore will move around and I've never been too sure that the block plates do actually simulate the cylinder "distortion" created from the head being torqued down...a piece of dense steel versus a piece of cast iron is not much of a simulation IMHO.

The temp part makes sense but for the other, would it not be the pull of the fasteners going into the block that cause the distortion down there?  Would it matter what was used to anchor the block if the distortion is down inside it?

[Challenger340]

As noted earlier, if the block isn't brought up to operating temperature during the final honing process with block plates the bore will move around and I've never been too sure that the block plates do actually simulate the cylinder "distortion" created from the head being torqued down...a piece of dense steel versus a piece of cast iron is not much of a simulation IMHO.

I'm sure,
because I've bolted BOTH my Aluminum BBM T/plate, and my Cast Iron BBM T/plate onto bare blocks, gauged them from underneath with my bore gauge through the empty crankcase, against actual Cylinder heads to be used.... VERY close !
Yes,
I have BOTH types of plates because they do distort differently, not by much though (less than .0002" to .0003" all concentrated at the top around the bolt holes).

When we used to Hone @ temp by pumping 180* Honing Oil into the Blocks, the Barrel shape was pronounced, but even and largest in the middle of the Cylinder.
We later discovered..... we were WRONG.... and that method was also flawed, because it assumes "even" temperature dispersion over the entire cylinder length ?

In actual fact during operation, the vast majority of the Combustion Heat distortion is concentrated within the top 1" of the Cylinder. Never did figure that out... gave up and went back to just a "T/Plate" and no hot oil.
The Fumes were NASTY !

[maxwellwedge]

I have used them on every engine that I have had done.....even almost dead stock restoration engines....but the shop I use has them and always use them in all of their work. Anything you can do to promote better sealing is a bonus in my book.....no matter what level of performance you are after.

[Ghoste]

Is it a shop in Toronto?

[fy469rtse]

i also like to torque down the main caps as well when doing the final hone 
another point of distortion, do it as a rule

[maxwellwedge]

Is it a shop in Toronto?

Yes - Competition Auto in Richmond Hill
http://www.competitionautomotive.com/en/

[Ghoste]

Long drive for me but I may end up having to call them.

[maxwellwedge]

Long drive for me but I may end up having to call them.

Drive on down and I can introduce you to them....and then bring you by my car shack.

[Challenger340]

i also like to torque down the main caps as well when doing the final hone 
another point of distortion, do it as a rule

Yep, GOOD POINT !
Main Caps always torqued in place(we've already Line Honed, sonic tested & rough Bored by then as well), all threads chased for the T/Plate fasteners, and the Decks already squared to the main-line.

[john108]

The machinist that did my engine always uses them.  His experience is and was with racing teams.  They are too expensive to buy all the sizes he might need so he rents them.  I don't remember but I think it was between $30 to $50 to rent.

[Ghoste]

If that were an option here I'd be all over it.  The unfortunate part of being away from it all.

[Challenger340]

The machinist that did my engine always uses them.  His experience is and was with racing teams.  They are too expensive to buy all the sizes he might need so he rents them.  I don't remember but I think it was between $30 to $50 to rent.

Boy, do I ever feel THAT Guy's pain !

We have 12 different Torque Plates for different engine applications, 6 of which are Mopars.

At $ 500-$1,000 each that I've had to pay for mine over the years, it gets annoying listening to some guys whine about a $60. charge for using the T/Plate when honing ?
and that's just to cover the extra time spent.... while "thread chasing" all the head bolts holes prior to installing the plate !

I can't see renting them out as a regular thing, it wouldn't be worth the money vrs damage/abuse the plate could be subjected to.
I have LENT a few of mine out to other shops over the years.... but only after a good yak with the borrower about HOW he was gonna use them.
 

[Ghoste]

Sixty bucks seems a pretty good bargain to me.

[Challenger340]

Sixty bucks seems a pretty good bargain to me.

LOL !
Come to think of it.... we were charging that same $60. back in the mid 90's ? 

Might be time to raise that a bit.... but alas... we are GOING to use the Plate as standard practise nonetheless, so as long as we get "something" for doing so, better than nothing I guess.   
We still get the odd whiner though ? too funny.... just give 'em THAT look !

[Ghoste]

Well just based on the carefully applied scientific principles of the poll I did here there were 10 answers and 2 said not needed for the street so it stands to reason that there could be as many as 20% of your customers thinking its a waste.   

[JB400]

Sounds like a case of uninformed public to me.

[green69rt]

Given that I voted no and have absolutely no experience or knowledge in the area you may want to "adjust" you results.

[John_Kunkel]

Sounds like a case of uninformed public to me.

Well, I've been building engines for 50 years and know the value of honing plates but I still contend it's wasted money for the street.

One of the OP's choices claims it's "free power" and it ain't free.

[Ghoste]

Well nothing is free John, we all know that but I think the point of certain machining practices providing benefit without the usual addition of a purchased component to add was understood.  Clearly my wording in this topic has been horribly off for few but the responses have still proven useful for me.  I'm glad you voted no and stand by your choice, the opinion is most assuredly taken into account even if the phrase "free power" was a poor one.