Will the modern charger be a collectible ever?

[wingcar]

Buying a new car as an investment, with the possible exception of the new Hellcat is a waste of money.  There are other commodities that will get you a bigger return on your money.  For the same money, why not buy an older car that already has "collectability".  Why would want to park a car such as an SRT or Hellcat in the garage and save it for someone in the future to enjoy?  Enjoy it yourself...if someone twenty years down the road truly wants a car like yours, the mileage will become secondary if there are fewer to chose from.  (I don't see today's buyers of Daytona and Superbirds asking about mileage).  Plus, most individuals don't understand the correct way to place a vehicle into long term storage anyway and the end result is more often than not...less than desirable.  We've already seen many a Wingcar, Hemi and other collectable cars stored incorrectly and the end result.   
There is no guarantee that any of today's muscle cars will be that desirable in the distant future...and for that matter there is no guarantee that you will even be around to reap the rewards from selling your car.  So enjoy your car first and worry about its future value later.  Just my   

[HeavyFuel]

I put classic cars in the same category as Classic Rock (formerly known as just 'Rock').  It came on the air and never went away.  You can tune in several stations in any city that are dedicated to just that.  Listen to the new music that is popular today.....do you think that anyone will be searching the airwaves in 30 years for Beiber or Cyrus?

I don't even have to be in my Charger to enjoy it.......just looking at it gives me pleasure.  

Little bits of happiness every time it's in my sight.  There isn't a new car (at least one that I can afford, let alone work on) that even comes close.



Have a brother and we were talking about the Hellcat Charger yesterday, and he said that if he had $65K to spend on a 2nd gen or a Hellcat, he'd take the Hellcat in a heartbeat.  

My wife said that I could get a Hellcat if I sold my '68.    

[myk]

 
There is no guarantee that any of today's muscle cars will be that desirable in the distant future...and for that matter there is no guarantee that you will even be around to reap the rewards from selling your car.  So enjoy your car first and worry about its future value later.  Just my   

EXACTLY.  I don't even see myself being alive NEXT WEEK let alone wondering about the sort of moves I'd like to be making 10, 20, 30 years down the road.  It's an illogical cliche, but I say live for today anyway.  Personally, I'd rather arrive at the gates saying "yes, while I was alive I drove the snot out of my (insert car of choice here), and I am ready for judgement..."

[workworkwork]

What will the world be like 30 years from now. Lack of fuel? China owning everything? US having gone bankrupt? I still think you are better off buying a 2nd gen charger or even a 3rd gen if you like 3rd gens like I do. Enjoy it. I guarantee that if you buy a new charger now, 5 years from now you will have lost 10 to 15K whether you drive it much or not.

[Ghoste]

Buy what you like, if you like spending the money on something and hoarding it away the knock yourself out (and some do enjoy that).  If you enjoy the thrill of driving it though...

[bull]

No. Even if the car looked like a Charger and were desireable across the board, could you imagine trying to restore a modern car? Forty years from now trying to find an ECM, air bags, interior parts, wiring harnesses, etc.? It would be like trying to find bigfoot riding a unicorn. Would you pull a 2006 out of the brush and spend $50k to restore it? Not worth the effort on any level, unless you're nuts.

[Troy]

I don't have that much time left! It took nearly 20 years for the first muscle car boom to hit and about another 15 after that for the prices to really go nuts. The high dollar cars were (and likely always will be) the ultra rare versions that hardly anyone could afford when new. Of those, it seems that half or less are still alive (which is a way higher percentage than the less rare versions). I suppose that leaves us with SRT 6.4s and Hellcats. If I had one today I'd run it into the ground well before it became collectible (and I got old).

Troy

[ramairthree]

I disagree that the super valuable cars of today were not affordable to most new.

My dad worked part time as a mechanic in high school.  As a junior and senior he was driving a few years old tri power 65 GTO.
When he graduated HS he worked full time as a mechanic and bought a brand new 68 442.
Then took over the garage (one bay, two pump Sunoco) paying away at it from the guy that wanted to retire.
He ordered a brand new 70 SS 454 Chevelle.
He traded it like 6 months later for a new still on the lot 440 Automatic Daytona.
He paid cash for a 2 year old 69 Z28 as an extra car.
The 16 year old high school kid working for him part time bought the Z29 from him a year or two later.

Sure,
maybe a Yenko or some sure rare stuff 90 plus percent of people did not even know about cost more than the average buyer had,

but brand new top of the line stuff was available and affordable to the average guy.

A brand new Army officer could get a big block Vette, etc.

Your part time job in HS guy is not buying a two year old SRT.
The new HS grad with a full time job is not buying a brand new SS Camaro or GT Mustang.
Hell, the new Army officer or college grad is likely not getting a brand new Vette.

The cost to salary of a great car now is way more than it used to be in today's dollars.

[moparnation74]

Sure,
maybe a Yenko or some sure rare stuff

I believe that is what he was referring to.

[Lord Warlock]

Not many new army officers could afford new cars back then, my dad was a navy officer with a family and couldn't afford a new vette back then.  I do know that my charger would have stickered close to a new vette based on the options that are on it.  He did drive several hemi's and had a 63 300-J, which was probably the only new car I ever remember having in the 60s.  Didn't keep it long, my mom couldn't drive it.  The military was usually dreadfully underpaid during that era. 

As for the uber rare's like yenkos, most of us growing up at the time never even heard of them except in magazines, I never heard about yenkos till one was featured in car craft, I knew about Shelby gt500s, limited production hemi darts etc but there were some parts of the trade I was ignorant of back then, like Baldwin motion and Mr Norm's.  There were always areas of the hobby I could learn more of.  

[ws23rt]

They could well be.  There could well be no fuel or an affordable way to own them by then too, who knows?  There was a time when the classic ones weren't collectible either.  As for saving them, I think thats a big waste, just get out and enjoy the car.
Ask the 25th Anniversary Vette buyers and last Cadillac convertible Eldorado buyers who stored them thinking they would get rich only to give up decades later to accept they were only worth what other used cars were.

I recall reading about those saved vettes and eldorados. when it was a topic.   Since I was not much interested in those cars then it passed me by as being rather odd that someone would do something like that.

A friend that I've worked with over many years talked about a very low mile vett he had (not sure of the year-early sixties). He had it cared for in storage out of state and paid a good sum every month for it's care.  I asked him every so often about it and his plans for it.  He always said it was for later and would be worth it.
My friend is getting on in age and has health troubles that will not regress. He is in no place to enjoy his prize in waiting and likely never will. Maybe his family will get some benefit but he always told me the vett was for him when the time was right.

Procrastination is very human. So is nesting and saving for later. We all have some of that in us.  The trick is to figure out how to use and spend what we work for to match our expected desires and needs without their being anything left over at the end.

I like the old saying that my last check will bounce but for many spending their life's effort is something their kids will do for them.

[Troy]

I disagree that the super valuable cars of today were not affordable to most new.

My dad worked part time as a mechanic in high school.  As a junior and senior he was driving a few years old tri power 65 GTO.
When he graduated HS he worked full time as a mechanic and bought a brand new 68 442.
Then took over the garage (one bay, two pump Sunoco) paying away at it from the guy that wanted to retire.
He ordered a brand new 70 SS 454 Chevelle.
He traded it like 6 months later for a new still on the lot 440 Automatic Daytona.
He paid cash for a 2 year old 69 Z28 as an extra car.
The 16 year old high school kid working for him part time bought the Z29 from him a year or two later.

Sure,
maybe a Yenko or some sure rare stuff 90 plus percent of people did not even know about cost more than the average buyer had,

but brand new top of the line stuff was available and affordable to the average guy.

A brand new Army officer could get a big block Vette, etc.

Your part time job in HS guy is not buying a two year old SRT.
The new HS grad with a full time job is not buying a brand new SS Camaro or GT Mustang.
Hell, the new Army officer or college grad is likely not getting a brand new Vette.

The cost to salary of a great car now is way more than it used to be in today's dollars.

I guess your definition of "super valuable" is different than mine. The key word in my sentence was "ultra rare" so you need to be looking at values for cars like Hurst, Shelby, Yenko, Boss, Hemi, etc.

An example, a 1968 Charger 318 auto ($2,492) was reasonably affordable when new - although still a good bit more than a Slant Six Belvedere which was more than a base model Dart. Upgrade to a Hemi R/T and you'd add about 30%+ to the price tag on an already expensive car. Not everyone was convinced that an $800 engine upgrade was a smart choice when the 440 was plenty fast on the street. Today the Charger is worth way more than the Belvedere - but a Hemi 4-speed Charger is worth many times more than that. Mostly due to rarity. The Hemi cars will "pull up" the values of the lesser models when supply vs demand goes haywire but the lesser model value will also drop like a rock when demand eases.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
Collectibility happens to specific cars with a VIN number or a rare backstory.  That kind of value exists because it cannot be manufactured again.  



A 318 car is worth what it costs to replace it, even though that might be $30k in some cases.  
People pay that much every day for brand new pickup trucks too.  It's not because new $30k pickup trucks are collectible.  You just can't buy or build another truck like it for any less.  


A 318 car cloned into a Hemi . . . is worth something like what it costs to have another one built just like it.  It's a lot more than the regular 318, but it's still just the replacement value.  Paying $70k for a flawless 318 Hemi clone sounds like a lot, but could you pay a shop much less to build another one like it? 

[ramairthree]

I disagree that the super valuable cars of today were not affordable to most new.

My dad worked part time as a mechanic in high school.  As a junior and senior he was driving a few years old tri power 65 GTO.
When he graduated HS he worked full time as a mechanic and bought a brand new 68 442.
Then took over the garage (one bay, two pump Sunoco) paying away at it from the guy that wanted to retire.
He ordered a brand new 70 SS 454 Chevelle.
He traded it like 6 months later for a new still on the lot 440 Automatic Daytona.
He paid cash for a 2 year old 69 Z28 as an extra car.
The 16 year old high school kid working for him part time bought the Z29 from him a year or two later.

Sure,
maybe a Yenko or some sure rare stuff 90 plus percent of people did not even know about cost more than the average buyer had,

but brand new top of the line stuff was available and affordable to the average guy.

A brand new Army officer could get a big block Vette, etc.

Your part time job in HS guy is not buying a two year old SRT.
The new HS grad with a full time job is not buying a brand new SS Camaro or GT Mustang.
Hell, the new Army officer or college grad is likely not getting a brand new Vette.

The cost to salary of a great car now is way more than it used to be in today's dollars.

I guess your definition of "super valuable" is different than mine. The key word in my sentence was "ultra rare" so you need to be looking at values for cars like Hurst, Shelby, Yenko, Boss, Hemi, etc.

An example, a 1968 Charger 318 auto ($2,492) was reasonably affordable when new - although still a good bit more than a Slant Six Belvedere which was more than a base model Dart. Upgrade to a Hemi R/T and you'd add about 30%+ to the price tag on an already expensive car. Not everyone was convinced that an $800 engine upgrade was a smart choice when the 440 was plenty fast on the street. Today the Charger is worth way more than the Belvedere - but a Hemi 4-speed Charger is worth many times more than that. Mostly due to rarity. The Hemi cars will "pull up" the values of the lesser models when supply vs demand goes haywire but the lesser model value will also drop like a rock when demand eases.

Troy

I agree on the Hurst Olds, Yenko, some very rare Vette engines, Baldwin, etc.
Most people did not even know about those. 

I misunderstood your use of rare to mean RTs, SSs, GTXs, etc.  (as in rare to see now vs. clones, etc.)

I am plus/minus on agreement on the Hemis.
The two I knew of,
one was a logger the other guy small machine shop.  Expensive, but then again neither guy had a wife or kids when they got them.

In my youth, some very high value cars today,
such as RTs, Ram Air GTOs, Judges, 442s, big block SS Chevelles, Road Runners, etc. were bought a couple of years old by HS kids with part time jobs and brand new ones driven of the lot by regular guys with regular jobs and wives and kids.
Even my old man with the Daytona.

Let's say today a Challenger RT is the equivalent of a 440 Charger, the SRT a Hemi, and the Hellcat the Daytona.

The same demographic as then is not driving one off the lot.

A 69 Z28 stickered for about 3200 bucks.
That would be about 22K in todays dollars.

In 1979, they stickered about 5700, again, about 21K in todays dollars.

When I used my enlistment bonus as the down payment in the 80s, the top of the line TPI Z28 or IROC was maybe about 12K to drive off the lot.  About 24K in todays dollars.

Basically, for decades you see the relative stability in today's inflation adjusted dollars- for a top of the line, standard factory performance car.

When I went to look at Z28s in 1998, the SS was a touch above and higher cost.  Either way, you were looking at 25 to 35K to drive off in one depending on the Z28 or SS and options to drive off in one. On average, say about 30K then or 44K in todays dollars.

Something really happened between 1988 and 1998.
That has stayed about the same, as in 2008 I paid 30K for my RT Challenger,
but the top of the line SRT would have been similar to the 44K in today's dollars and still is for a 392/Hellcat.

So, basically dollar wise,
and demographic wise,
the dudes driving off the lot in a new top standard offering muscle car from 68 to 88,
and they guys doing so from 98 to now, just are not the same group of guys.

The only exception I really see is the military, where young single guys living in the barracks, thanks to tax benefits and combat pay, are still able to drive off in new SSs, GTs, and RTs like new enlisted guys could get a 5.0 or IROC/Z28 back in my day.  (and keep in mind, money and inflation wise, it should be the SRT they are driving off in)


I am not seeing HS grads, hell, not even most new college grads,
being the guys driving an SRT or even an RT off the lot most of the time.



I consider today's GTs, SSs, RT/SRT cores basically the equivalent of the old RTs, RRs, GTXs, Z28s, SSs, GTOs, 442s, SSs, etc.

The Shelby, Hellcat, ZL1, Z28s are what I think of as the equivalent to the ones you refer to as the ultra rare Yenkos, Baldwins, etc.

[Ghoste]

I consider today's GTs, SSs, RT/SRT cores basically the equivalent of the old RTs, RRs, GTXs, Z28s, SSs, GTOs, 442s, SSs, etc.

The Shelby, Hellcat, ZL1, Z28s are what I think of as the equivalent to the ones you refer to as the ultra rare Yenkos, Baldwins, etc.

I agree.

[Mike DC]

 
A lot of factors have shifted the demographics of car buying older.  More expensive & elaborate cars.  Used cars lasting longer.  Everyone but the very wealthiest being poorer.  Cars becoming less of a fashion/social statement.  Etc.     

[moparnation74]

The majority of these "New" cars are financed.  So unless you whip 40k plus out of your pocket and buy it outright, you are paying some percentage more in addition to the price of these cars.  That are mass produced, last longer and depreciate quicker.

It is like buying baseball cards today, unless you get lucky and find that one special insert(Hellcat) all the other cards(SRT, RT, etc.) are just common much lesser value cards.

[wingcar]

A lot of this discussion really comes down to one thing...emotion.  Without it none of these "old cars" would have the value they do, or any value for that matter.  They would be just old cars to be used then discarded when used up.  It's the value each of us places on a particular vehicle because of our past experiences that makes them valuable.  Memories are a strong pull and they tend to play a big part in decisions we make.   

[ramairthree]

A lot of this discussion really comes down to one thing...emotion.  Without it none of these "old cars" would have the value they do, or any value for that matter.  They would be just old cars to be used then discarded when used up.  It's the value each of us places on a particular vehicle because of our past experiences that makes them valuable.  Memories are a strong pull and they tend to play a big part in decisions we make.   

Totally.
That is why there is a bump in the market once guys get the cash and buy the dream cars of their generation's youth.

The boomer generation is huge and that is part of the 64-74 allure.

However,
there is something else going on with that decade of cars.

I cannot say exactly what it is,
anyone with more information or that has read about it more,
please chime in,
it is very interesting for me to learn about.

Guys that are too old for them to have been the dream cars of their youth have loved and collected them.
Guys that are too young for them to have been the dream cars of their youth get drawn to them. (the crowds at car shows may be dwindling, but there are just less youth than boomers)

Want instant cool cred for a TV or movie character,
they get a classic muscle care era ride.

Want instant character development, the same.

A lot of younger interest in these gets smashed by the price on entry.

I was out driving my 74 (yes, it is a 318 RR, maybe I should get kicked off the Charger board because my everyday ride for 6 years has been a Challenger RT, not a Charger- and while I grew up as a kid in a Daytona- I actually do not own a new or classic Charger).  As a tail end of the era car, it lacks the muscle and cost me 3K to buy so it did not get parted out.  I have put about another 3k of gas tank, tires, front end rebuild, etc. into it- and it is barely a driver and looks like a trashed beater.

I have young guys asking about it like it is some 30K car and they wish they could get one.

I was out in my 69 GTO I paid 15K for as a driver- great mechanically but showing her age and NOM, etc.  A guy in a 6 year old new GTO that were selling for about 20K then was all wishing he could get one.  But it was less than his he did not even realize.

We seem to have scared a lot of the youth away from the market.

But the interest is there from guys that did not have that era cars as the new, dream cars of their youth.

[moparnation74]

We seem to have scared a lot of the youth away from the market.

[/quote]

They are not scared. They simply cannot afford it.

It is unfortunate our society/economy has done this to them.

I think of the thread posted here by Benfro, kid would give anything to get his dream of owning a 2nd gen.  He just simply could not afford it and maintain his daily needs.  

[wingcar]

I came of driving age right after the last of the true performance cars (they were not called muscle cars until years later) had stopped being produced.  However, the used car lots were full of them when I went looking for my first ride.  In fact my friends and I always made sure we checked out the back row of any small car lot as there was usually something of interest back there....it was a time of good hunting since all these car were still considered nothing more than used cars.  Car collectors purchased Duesenbergs, and such...the rest of us drove old performance cars!   Few "collected" old performance cars back then since they were made to be driven...and we did.  They were not meant to be parked in a garage hoping for its value to go up....who cared back then as we were just having fun with them.

[Troy]

I believe one reason our cars have ridden the collectible wave for longer than expected is because the bulk of the 70s, all the 80s, and the early 90s were incredibly disappointing for automobile fans. Not only were the cars incredibly weak, the styling was bland (if not outright silly) and the build quality was horrible. One could even argue that "real" performance didn't reappear until the last several years.

Kids can afford these cars. Unfortunately, kids don't want the ones they can afford. They want shiny and cool - not a rusty project that doesn't run (my first car was a $300 70 Challenger that my parents said I could have if I could make it roadworthy). These days parents will usually buy them something "safe" and "reliable" and the kids will destroy it rather quickly. That's if the kid has any interest in driving at all. I'm seeing more and more who would rather just use mom's taxi service until they're kicked out. I have nieces and nephews just getting to driving age/high school and it really saddens me. I don't think its harder for kids today - I think they are mostly spoiled and don't know how to do anything for themselves. Let alone work towards a long term goal. Too much instant gratification and a severe lack of responsibility these days.

Troy

[moparnation74]

Kids can afford these cars. Unfortunately, kids don't want the ones they can afford. They want shiny and cool - not a rusty project that doesn't run (my first car was a $300 70 Challenger that my parents said I could have if I could make it roadworthy). These days parents will usually buy them something "safe" and "reliable" and the kids will destroy it rather quickly. That's if the kid has any interest in driving at all. I'm seeing more and more who would rather just use mom's taxi service until they're kicked out. I have nieces and nephews just getting to driving age/high school and it really saddens me. I don't think its harder for kids today - I think they are mostly spoiled and don't know how to do anything for themselves. Let alone work towards a long term goal. Too much instant gratification and a severe lack of responsibility these days.
Troy

Correct, in relation to new cars.  I was only referring to classics.  I was also referring to the kids that lack mom/dad support.  Those that actually work and want a step up in the world along with some extras.

Remember the DreamCar thread posted by Benfro? 

[Mike DC]

 
Teenage kids can afford muscle cars?  Please.  Don't make me get out the AMD catalog and start quoting prices. 

And please don't expect teenage kids to want to bust their asses wrenching on the non-desirable models/years of old cars.  You know, the ones that none of us want to dump all our money into, either. 




Do we drive these cars all year round, all weather, etc?

Do we restore them while not having a beater to get to the parts-store and back? 

Does someone else buy us a big set of tools, a place to work, and a decent starting-point car to wrench on that is not rusted in half? 

These projects require a lot more than just a teenager willing to wrench on them and sacrifice a few things. 

[myk]

I don't even want teens to be able to afford muscle cars.  Matching a 40 year old car with a highly inexperienced driver and placing them on unforgiving modern roads full of reckless drivers is unfair to both car and driver.  Not only that, how is a busy teen with the attention span of a goldfish going to maintain that monster?  The ones that do will be the exception not the rule, and I would expect to see more junked classics as a result.  Let them play with the modern stuff if they have the money...