So let's say a FAST class for the street 440

[Ghoste]

Kind of a spin off from my iron heads thread but lets say the performance goal was 12.80 with sticky tires (not slicks) and a streetable gear (no 4:56) manifolds and a 440 that looks and sounds and seems as stock as you could make it.  What would you select?

[BSB67]

First, tell us the weight of your hypothetical car
Second, tell us exactly the tire and gear and converter.

The Reason: A 3800 lb b body with a 3.91, 2800 converter, and a sticky street tire can get there with 60 or 70 less hp than a 4100 lb b-body with 3.23, 1800 converter and P 225 BFG tire.

Finally, are you talking slap it together and it will run the numbers, or some serious track tuning.

[Ghoste]

4000 lbs.  I left the rest a bit open to see what YOU come up with.

[XH29N0G]

Ghoste,  It sounds like you want to make a 440 that runs stronger than it sounds and keep it a 440 rather than do some other internal change (like increasing stroke).  My guess is that some combination of changing stroke with a mild set up might get you there with less cost and be more stock sounding and looking.  But it could be that your performance goals are also well within reach of the stock 440 bore and stroke too without making changes that are too obvious from the outside.  My guess is that you can quiet the exhaust, but you will need to do something and it won't exactly sound stock if you are pushing the envelope with the same displacement.   I simply don't know the answer, but am interested to see what others say. 

[BSB67]

Well certainly I've posted enough about my stuff for you to already know how I have done it with the use of horse power verses suspension.  Obviously, if your goal is to be able to beat a VW Jetta off the line from a dead stop, do it with suspension, it's simple.  Me, I pick power.

Generally speaking, depending on what you are stating with, the suspension route is likely less expensive, so budget matters as well.

[Ghoste]

Yeah, cheap and stealthy I guess.

[firefighter3931]

Kind of a spin off from my iron heads thread but lets say the performance goal was 12.80 with sticky tires (not slicks) and a streetable gear (no 4:56) manifolds and a 440 that looks and sounds and seems as stock as you could make it.  What would you select?

That's not really a tall order....just good parts selection and planning will get it done. 

- Cylinder heads that flow 250 @ .500     ported iron  or better yet, lightweight aluminum
- MP 528 112* LSA solid flat tappet cam with crane adjustable rockers
- 3.91 or 4.10 SG with drag radials
- good shocks on all 4 corners with XHD springs out back


Ron

[Challenger340]

IMO,
12.80's ??
Hell I can RUN faster than that !
The Car/Chassis setup is MORE than 50% in that effort... THAT is the hard part to drill into anyone's head !

With proper Gearing, Tire & Convertor setup, Headers, etc., doesn't require much in the way of a stock 440 to shortblock run low 13's and dip into the high 12's.

Here I go again .... but "back in the day", we could Cam, Intake and Heads(ported stock iron) onto smogger 1978 low compression autowrecker shortblocks, dump it into a well setup E or B-Body and do just that.
Of course here, one of the biggest cautions with stock shortblocks.... was to make sure it could maintain "pull" against a "Load" with sufficient Airflow and Camshaft at rpm ? That is what keeps them together !
Start "free-wheelin" the stock shortblock Engine past where it can make power.... BOOM !.... but usually mid 5,000's with enough head & cam and they were fine !

[BSB67]

Factory 12" converter
3.23 gear
P225 70 15 BFG T/As
223°/230° @ 0.050" cam
Home ported 906 heads, std valve sizes
Crane Iron Adjustable rockers
9.3:1  CR
6 pack
Factory exhaust manifolds
Good air (DA< 2000) and 2.0 - 60ft, (typical for that tire and gear) 12.8s at 109.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Fwiw, all stock suspension, 225/70/15 tires. 2.76 gears. 383,10ish:1, bone stock 516 heads. Racer brown cam, torker intake, 750 edlebrock cam. 727 with a 10" converter. Trans was slipping. 13.21@ 104.

69 charger at the track: http://youtu.be/te8dfDlOITo

[Ghoste]

With a 2:76?  That's damned impressive.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Yup. A 2.76 at the time. You can hear how long it stays on the converter after the launch...lol.

[tan top]

Fwiw, all stock suspension, 225/70/15 tires. 2.76 gears. 383,10ish:1, bone stock 516 heads. Racer brown cam, torker intake, 750 edlebrock cam. 727 with a 10" converter. Trans was slipping. 13.21@ 104.

69 charger at the track: http://youtu.be/te8dfDlOITo

[Cooter]

$10k in the whole car. You wanna run high tens 1/4 mile.  Do that, and I'm impressed.

[Ghoste]

Who??

[c00nhunterjoe]

$10k in the whole car. You wanna run high tens 1/4 mile.  Do that, and I'm impressed.

It can be done...lol. you just wont be able to buy all new parts. Lets just do a hypothetical here....
- I paid 2k for my car in 98'
- I have about $1000 invested in my 4 speed conversion.
- i have about $600 invested in my dana conversion
- The rest of my car's chassis is untouched as far as modifications go.
- i have a dynoed, 750 hp 466 in the shed waiting to go in the car. Beleive it or not, i have under 2k invested to put it together through several means via trades, owed favors and some cash. Having friends in the racing industry and  machine shop world helped a great deal.

So call it cheating or not playing by the rules or whatever, but in theory, i could drop that motor in my car as it sits and im sure i could fulfill the 10's for 10k theory. Granted, i would tear the car apart eventually, but i could do it....lol. i never liked playing with cubic dollars. I like being the guy that builds fun cars on a budget as the underdog.

[Cooter]

$10k in the whole car. You wanna run high tens 1/4 mile.  Do that, and I'm impressed.

It can be done...lol. you just wont be able to buy all new parts. Lets just do a hypothetical here....
- I paid 2k for my car in 98'
- I have about $1000 invested in my 4 speed conversion.
- i have about $600 invested in my dana conversion
- The rest of my car's chassis is untouched as far as modifications go.
- i have a dynoed, 750 hp 466 in the shed waiting to go in the car. Beleive it or not, i have under 2k invested to put it together through several means via trades, owed favors and some cash. Having friends in the racing industry and  machine shop world helped a great deal.

So call it cheating or not playing by the rules or whatever, but in theory, i could drop that motor in my car as it sits and im sure i could fulfill the 10's for 10k theory. Granted, i would tear the car apart eventually, but i could do it....lol. i never liked playing with cubic dollars. I like being the guy that builds fun cars on a budget as the underdog.

Good answer....I was wondering when someone would post "build a ten second car thirty yesrs ago and run it today" answer, but of course I'm talkin today's money and no favor/freebies. I'm sure out there somewhere there's someone who had a relative pass away and leave them a race car for "free", but that's not really the task. And must be a 4k lb. Mopar body. No stripped out fox bodies with insane boosted LS engines.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Based on that, i dont think its possible to purchase and build ANY new car and use all new components and pay full price for machining and have a 10 second car. I dont care what the weight is.

My chassis is stock. Origonal, no race car parts in it. I dont see why the purchase price of my car is a penalty in your scenario? When you look at 69 charger prices now, 10k gets you a rusty stripped shell.
   Nothing on my car was free. Alot of my machine work was done by me, because i have access to the equipment. Why is that a penalty?

You show me a start to finish, all new parts and full price machineshop cost, fox body mustang build for under 10k. Its not going to hapoen.

[rt green]

I think for a 10 second car for 10 grand, you would have to beg borrow and steal to do it. but the fact of the matter is, you've done it for 10 grand. if 10 grand is all you have to do it, and there's a 10 second car in front of you, be proud. you've done what I haven't.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I think for a 10 second car for 10 grand, you would have to beg borrow and steal to do it. but the fact of the matter is, you've done it for 10 grand. if 10 grand is all you have to do it, and there's a 10 second car in front of you, be proud. you've done what I haven't.

I havnt done it. Lol. I just have the engine ready. The car is not. Lol. Im merely saying it is possible to do if you shop and are patient. Its not practical, just possible.

[Challenger340]

10 seconds E.T. ?
for $10 grand in TODAY's money ?
with a 2 ton 60's technology stock chassis ?

Sounds like one fawk of alot of giggle juice..... with a tow truck and about 10 guys with brooms and shovels ready to clean up afterwards ?

Just my opinion....
we need another dedicated 833 4 spd thread ?
might clear up some romantic "nonsense".... as I call it ?(just my opinion).... regarding the Sox & Martin mentality, and actually "shifting" a STOCK 833 behind any REAL power ? and the hero-badges given out for such attempts by laymen !

Sorry for the rant but....
I can not count how many times over the last 35 years of building Performance Engines, I have had customers... "4 spd Guys".... "real men".... who have then purchased a little "more" Engine... even just a 550-600hp street deals(little-lown heaven forbid 600-700hp).... then gone home and installed their stock "833 STICK", convinced they would now EDUCATE the masses on how it is REALLY DONE !
NO spring loaded shift detentes...
NO Long point angle synchro's....
No dual cut cones or hubs....
just a "stock" 833 ! because you can't even access those parts anymore....

Only to later find out for their efforts.... that all they REALLY do.... is go SLOWER.... break alot of PARTS.... and spend the budget of a south american banana republic dictatorship repairing it weekly... usually leading to a "divorce" if married ?

   

[c00nhunterjoe]

10 seconds E.T. ?
for $10 grand in TODAY's money ?
with a 2 ton 60's technology stock chassis ?

Sounds like one fawk of alot of giggle juice..... with a tow truck and about 10 guys with brooms and shovels ready to clean up afterwards ?

Just my opinion....
we need another dedicated 833 4 spd thread ?
might clear up some romantic "nonsense".... as I call it ?(just my opinion).... regarding the Sox & Martin mentality, and actually "shifting" a STOCK 833 behind any REAL power ? and the hero-badges given out for such attempts by laymen !

Sorry for the rant but....
I can not count how many times over the last 35 years of building Performance Engines, I have had customers... "4 spd Guys".... "real men".... who have then purchased a little "more" Engine... even just a 550-600hp street deals(little-lown heaven forbid 600-700hp).... then gone home and installed their stock "833 STICK", convinced they would now EDUCATE the masses on how it is REALLY DONE !
NO spring loaded shift detentes...
NO Long point angle synchro's....
No dual cut cones or hubs....
just a "stock" 833 ! because you can't even access those parts anymore....

Only to later find out for their efforts.... that all they REALLY do.... is go SLOWER.... break alot of PARTS.... and spend the budget of a south american banana republic dictatorship repairing it weekly... usually leading to a "divorce" if married ?

   

I agree. IF i put my big motor in my car as it sits, parts would scatter everywhere. We could roll the dice as to what part would fail first. My point was simply to meet the goal of 10's for 10k. I dont think its possible to build any reliable, consistant, 10 second car for that budget. You will have to cut so many corners that parts will fail, and fail fast. And when you break, you dont win.
    From my experiences, the 833 is only good for high 11's at best before you run into problems. Low 12's safely. I dont prefer to toot my horn but i assure you i can shift mine. I think a dedicated 4 speed thread would be awesome. Pictures and videos and timeslips of what guys are capable of with their cars.

[Ghoste]

Which is why I'm setting my performance goals relatively low.  I want a four speed because I want one and I'm well aware of the cons.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Which is why I'm setting my performance goals relatively low.  I want a four speed because I want one and I'm well aware of the cons.

Besides, 4 speeds are WAY more fun....lol.

[Ghoste]

Well yeah, thats why I want one.