Mild street build heads

[Ghoste]

I know the Edelbrock heads are wildly popular for all kinds of rebuild and I know a good performance refurb on a set of used heads can cost as much as aluminum ones.  But for a mild street build aren't the iron heads still just fine?  Or are they still the choke point and anything more than a bone stock cam is going to show that?  I'm talking about a close to stock engine with manifolds.

[heyoldguy]

One uses what they can afford.

390 HP 6-Pack..........Naw they don't work at all.

The big block iron heads have worked since 1958 and in 1959 my father used them to run 150.246 MPH at Bonneville on a 361 in a 1959 Plymouth.

[Ghoste]

Well thats exactly my thinking too.  So a good, GOOD, valve seat job, guides, hardened seats and I'm still less than Eddy's no?

[firefighter3931]

Well thats exactly my thinking too.  So a good, GOOD, valve seat job, guides, hardened seats and I'm still less than Eddy's no?

By the time you do all the machine work and add the hardware......you're getting into aftermarket aluminum head territory 

Here is a new casting that looks very attractive :  http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html

I like the numbers Marsh is getting with a basic bowl blend and valve job. 

Those heads are an easy 50-75hp upgrade vs a stock (unported) casting and you'll be trimming 50 lbs of dead weight off the nose of the car as an added bonus. 



Ron

[Ghoste]

Wow, the pricing isn't bad either.

[b5blue]

That's 850 each not a pair right?  I'm wondering about torque numbers?

[don duick]

one advantage of aluminium heads is the closed chamber design which will not only up your compression but also gives a quench area which results in less detonation. I have 10.3 compression with no detonation and use 95 octane

[Ghoste]

Are you limited to headers when using the angled plug heads?

[don duick]

HP exhaust manifolds clear the slant plugs on the Eddys. I tried them out of curiousity

[heyoldguy]

We're putting together a low compression 2bbl 400 with mildly worked 346 heads and a Summit 6400 cam. So's I guess we're all gonna find out.

[JB400]

How radical of a cam can one use before the factory heads become a major restriction and aftermarket heads become necessary?

[BSB67]

How radical of a cam can one use before the factory heads become a major restriction and aftermarket heads become necessary?

You can go as radical as you want in duration, but there is not much advantage over .500" lift.  It is not really about the head flow.  There are a some other factors that matter more.  

Honestly, there were fast cars before Eddy heads.  If you cannot clearly articulate exactly what you want in performance,  then the factory head will likely be fine.

To the OP.  the factory head is a good head and can make decent power.  I prefer it in lower power applications, even if it costs as much.  You can go 12s in a pump gas street car with a factory head, without porting.

[Challenger340]

I know the Edelbrock heads are wildly popular for all kinds of rebuild and I know a good performance refurb on a set of used heads can cost as much as aluminum ones.  But for a mild street build aren't the iron heads still just fine?  Or are they still the choke point and anything more than a bone stock cam is going to show that?  I'm talking about a close to stock engine with manifolds.

It is not that the iron heads can not make power... they most certainly WILL in the "right" hands !
Nonetheless,
the costs associated in doing things "properly", even on what in bygone days was just a good quality rebuild are prohibitive to doing so.
that,
and actually finding Iron Heads still in good enough condition for rebuild to begin with... WITHOUT sunk valves
then,
By the time you actually PAY someone any "good" to:
* Dis-assembly, Cleaning of all parts, glass beading and crack checking castings, thread chasing all holes.
* Machine / Install a good quality guide "fit" at .001"-.002" to the valve(un-worn or NEW valve stems), little-lown an actual "hone-fit" Bronze guides ?
* decent 3 angle seats... and cleanup the throats with a 75*... without sinking the Valves any further into the Head(if not already sunk from use ?)
* (see above) as to then machining Valve stem tip heights back to a common height if some "goofy" seat heights from wear... WITHOUT replacing seats.
* machine for a decent valve seals
* checking/setting Valve Springs & Heights
* Surfacing, and re-surface the intake face to "çorrect" Intake fit
* washing, lubing, and re-assembly.

you have quickly exceeded to costs of purchasing new aluminum heads !

That said....
at our shop, we ALWAYS re-do even the BRAND NEW Edelbrock seats and valve grinding "serviceable" to our criterion, and touch up the guides..... just more Flow BEFORE we even go into the Ports for even more gains.
The Edelbrock Heads "ootb" brand new, use really crappy WIDE seats.... just a production thing, to compensate for poor seat concentricity.
The idea being.... that the Valves just then beat themselves in and "seat" during operation once installed. It works... they run fine... but it does NOT mean they don't leave ALOT of Flow on the table ootb box compared to doing it right at the factory(time)....  which pushes labor costs waaay up !

[Ghoste]

My problem is that I do not want to window the numbers matching block in my car and I plan to install a Hemi about two years down the road.  But right now there is a local clown running his dick holster so I'd really like to take the Charger to the track and post something in the 13 flat range, as the car largely sits.  An easy enough goal but I don't want to do it with this engine and I need to do it as stock as possible and above all as cheaply as possible.
Although if the insults and taunts continue my budget may go up.

[firefighter3931]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power. The best gains are going to be in the cylinder heads by increasing the power output within the parameters of the existing combination. The fat mid lift flow numbers on those sidewinder heads are very nice and will provide a significant increase in output without having to over rev the engine. 

I agree with Bob ; by the time you install new seats and buy new valves, springs, retainers and do all the required machinework....you're well past the price of a new set of aluminum heads. Unless ported the iron heads will be well down in power vs the newer, lighter, superior closed chamber aluminum casting. This is a no-brainer, inmho. 


Ron

[Challenger340]

My problem is that I do not want to window the numbers matching block in my car and I plan to install a Hemi about two years down the road.  But right now there is a local clown running his dick holster so I'd really like to take the Charger to the track and post something in the 13 flat range, as the car largely sits.  An easy enough goal but I don't want to do it with this engine and I need to do it as stock as possible and above all as cheaply as possible.
Although if the insults and taunts continue my budget may go up.

Don't let some moron's "sass" spend YOUR money ? Why do that ?
Ain't worth it !
Think about it here... what possible so called "insults", could anyone say..... that should dictate your motivation to anything ?

As stated, 13 flat is fawk all to do anyways... so why bother ?   If the HEMI is the future plan.... then save your money and stick to the ultimate goal

[Dino]

I'm in full agreement with Challenger340.  If you spend a bunch of time and money just to show some guy who's faster, you always loose.  Save up for what you really want and to hell with anyone else.   

There's always going the be someone faster than you.

[Ghoste]

As always, there is a little more to the story.  This is an ongoing rivalry that goes back a bit, I stayed ahead for a long time but he made some gains after I quit taking the fastback to the strip.  If it was just some new punk on the scene it wouldn't worry me.

[Dino]

It's your money and sanity Ghoste, we're just trying to not see you make a mistake.  If this guy needs a pummeling then by all means, go pummel.   

[Canadian1968]

I don't hav money for the big $$ heads either. I am goin to stick with cast heads . Use the mopar porting template an do some simple gasket matching ! Tons of info I have found on the net showing decent gains from this !! My goal is also 13s flat !

It will be fun , it's cheap , and I have a enough common sense not to destroy my heads !

[BSB67]

As always, there is a little more to the story.  This is an ongoing rivalry that goes back a bit, I stayed ahead for a long time but he made some gains after I quit taking the fastback to the strip.  If it was just some new punk on the scene it wouldn't worry me.

Certainly agree with staying focused on what you want.  But I do find that sometimes what people think they want is not what they really want in the end.  

My 11 second exhaust manifold street car is exactly what I wanted, and planned for.  Exactly.  I like it, am proud of it, and learned a lot building it my way, and have no regrets.  That said, I'm not having as much fun as I did with my high 12 second, nearly stock car.  It was probably the kind of car/performance that you are talking about now. (This is why I know you can run 12 w/o a ported factory head).  The reason is because of the friendly rivalry that several of us had with similar cars, similar performance and similar interests.   The guy with the fastest car would change a couple times a season, and this went on for several years.  We would hit the track 8 to 10 times a year.  We all started in the 14s and all ended up in the 12s.  It was tremendous fun.  No strokers, no aluminum heads, no big cams, no slicks, no stupid gears or convertors.

I'm now collection the parts for my next engine,  stock stroke 440, with manifolds of course, pump gas and factory iron head with stock size valves.

Just putting this out there for you to think about.....don't loose focus on the fun part.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Plenty of power can be made with iron heads....
  Stock 906's. Stock ports, not allowed to modify them in any way for the class. Even runs stock valve sizes. At maple grove last weekend he went 10.40's carrying the wheels damn near to the 60 ft.

[don duick]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power.


Ron

my cam is 224/236 @ 50. On the dyno it peaked at 4400 and maintained till 4800. Have I installed it wrong? It was installed straight up and is 0ne crankshaft degree advanced when I compared it to the cam card.

[BSB67]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power.


Ron

my cam is 224/236 @ 50. On the dyno it peaked at 4400 and maintained till 4800. Have I installed it wrong? It was installed straight up and is 0ne crankshaft degree advanced when I compared it to the cam card.

It might be a little low.  We will need more information about the cam, springs, and what the power curve looked like past 4800.

[rt green]

maple grove.  what state?  any more info on the car?

Plenty of power can be made with iron heads....
  Stock 906's. Stock ports, not allowed to modify them in any way for the class. Even runs stock valve sizes. At maple grove last weekend he went 10.40's carrying the wheels damn near to the 60 ft.