Mild street build heads

[Ghoste]

I know the Edelbrock heads are wildly popular for all kinds of rebuild and I know a good performance refurb on a set of used heads can cost as much as aluminum ones.  But for a mild street build aren't the iron heads still just fine?  Or are they still the choke point and anything more than a bone stock cam is going to show that?  I'm talking about a close to stock engine with manifolds.

[heyoldguy]

One uses what they can afford.

390 HP 6-Pack..........Naw they don't work at all.

The big block iron heads have worked since 1958 and in 1959 my father used them to run 150.246 MPH at Bonneville on a 361 in a 1959 Plymouth.

[Ghoste]

Well thats exactly my thinking too.  So a good, GOOD, valve seat job, guides, hardened seats and I'm still less than Eddy's no?

[firefighter3931]

Well thats exactly my thinking too.  So a good, GOOD, valve seat job, guides, hardened seats and I'm still less than Eddy's no?

By the time you do all the machine work and add the hardware......you're getting into aftermarket aluminum head territory 

Here is a new casting that looks very attractive :  http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html

I like the numbers Marsh is getting with a basic bowl blend and valve job. 

Those heads are an easy 50-75hp upgrade vs a stock (unported) casting and you'll be trimming 50 lbs of dead weight off the nose of the car as an added bonus. 



Ron

[Ghoste]

Wow, the pricing isn't bad either.

[b5blue]

That's 850 each not a pair right?  I'm wondering about torque numbers?

[don duick]

one advantage of aluminium heads is the closed chamber design which will not only up your compression but also gives a quench area which results in less detonation. I have 10.3 compression with no detonation and use 95 octane

[Ghoste]

Are you limited to headers when using the angled plug heads?

[don duick]

HP exhaust manifolds clear the slant plugs on the Eddys. I tried them out of curiousity

[heyoldguy]

We're putting together a low compression 2bbl 400 with mildly worked 346 heads and a Summit 6400 cam. So's I guess we're all gonna find out.

[JB400]

How radical of a cam can one use before the factory heads become a major restriction and aftermarket heads become necessary?

[BSB67]

How radical of a cam can one use before the factory heads become a major restriction and aftermarket heads become necessary?

You can go as radical as you want in duration, but there is not much advantage over .500" lift.  It is not really about the head flow.  There are a some other factors that matter more.  

Honestly, there were fast cars before Eddy heads.  If you cannot clearly articulate exactly what you want in performance,  then the factory head will likely be fine.

To the OP.  the factory head is a good head and can make decent power.  I prefer it in lower power applications, even if it costs as much.  You can go 12s in a pump gas street car with a factory head, without porting.

[Challenger340]

I know the Edelbrock heads are wildly popular for all kinds of rebuild and I know a good performance refurb on a set of used heads can cost as much as aluminum ones.  But for a mild street build aren't the iron heads still just fine?  Or are they still the choke point and anything more than a bone stock cam is going to show that?  I'm talking about a close to stock engine with manifolds.

It is not that the iron heads can not make power... they most certainly WILL in the "right" hands !
Nonetheless,
the costs associated in doing things "properly", even on what in bygone days was just a good quality rebuild are prohibitive to doing so.
that,
and actually finding Iron Heads still in good enough condition for rebuild to begin with... WITHOUT sunk valves
then,
By the time you actually PAY someone any "good" to:
* Dis-assembly, Cleaning of all parts, glass beading and crack checking castings, thread chasing all holes.
* Machine / Install a good quality guide "fit" at .001"-.002" to the valve(un-worn or NEW valve stems), little-lown an actual "hone-fit" Bronze guides ?
* decent 3 angle seats... and cleanup the throats with a 75*... without sinking the Valves any further into the Head(if not already sunk from use ?)
* (see above) as to then machining Valve stem tip heights back to a common height if some "goofy" seat heights from wear... WITHOUT replacing seats.
* machine for a decent valve seals
* checking/setting Valve Springs & Heights
* Surfacing, and re-surface the intake face to "çorrect" Intake fit
* washing, lubing, and re-assembly.

you have quickly exceeded to costs of purchasing new aluminum heads !

That said....
at our shop, we ALWAYS re-do even the BRAND NEW Edelbrock seats and valve grinding "serviceable" to our criterion, and touch up the guides..... just more Flow BEFORE we even go into the Ports for even more gains.
The Edelbrock Heads "ootb" brand new, use really crappy WIDE seats.... just a production thing, to compensate for poor seat concentricity.
The idea being.... that the Valves just then beat themselves in and "seat" during operation once installed. It works... they run fine... but it does NOT mean they don't leave ALOT of Flow on the table ootb box compared to doing it right at the factory(time)....  which pushes labor costs waaay up !

[Ghoste]

My problem is that I do not want to window the numbers matching block in my car and I plan to install a Hemi about two years down the road.  But right now there is a local clown running his dick holster so I'd really like to take the Charger to the track and post something in the 13 flat range, as the car largely sits.  An easy enough goal but I don't want to do it with this engine and I need to do it as stock as possible and above all as cheaply as possible.
Although if the insults and taunts continue my budget may go up.

[firefighter3931]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power. The best gains are going to be in the cylinder heads by increasing the power output within the parameters of the existing combination. The fat mid lift flow numbers on those sidewinder heads are very nice and will provide a significant increase in output without having to over rev the engine. 

I agree with Bob ; by the time you install new seats and buy new valves, springs, retainers and do all the required machinework....you're well past the price of a new set of aluminum heads. Unless ported the iron heads will be well down in power vs the newer, lighter, superior closed chamber aluminum casting. This is a no-brainer, inmho. 


Ron

[Challenger340]

My problem is that I do not want to window the numbers matching block in my car and I plan to install a Hemi about two years down the road.  But right now there is a local clown running his dick holster so I'd really like to take the Charger to the track and post something in the 13 flat range, as the car largely sits.  An easy enough goal but I don't want to do it with this engine and I need to do it as stock as possible and above all as cheaply as possible.
Although if the insults and taunts continue my budget may go up.

Don't let some moron's "sass" spend YOUR money ? Why do that ?
Ain't worth it !
Think about it here... what possible so called "insults", could anyone say..... that should dictate your motivation to anything ?

As stated, 13 flat is fawk all to do anyways... so why bother ?   If the HEMI is the future plan.... then save your money and stick to the ultimate goal

[Dino]

I'm in full agreement with Challenger340.  If you spend a bunch of time and money just to show some guy who's faster, you always loose.  Save up for what you really want and to hell with anyone else.   

There's always going the be someone faster than you.

[Ghoste]

As always, there is a little more to the story.  This is an ongoing rivalry that goes back a bit, I stayed ahead for a long time but he made some gains after I quit taking the fastback to the strip.  If it was just some new punk on the scene it wouldn't worry me.

[Dino]

It's your money and sanity Ghoste, we're just trying to not see you make a mistake.  If this guy needs a pummeling then by all means, go pummel.   

[Canadian1968]

I don't hav money for the big $$ heads either. I am goin to stick with cast heads . Use the mopar porting template an do some simple gasket matching ! Tons of info I have found on the net showing decent gains from this !! My goal is also 13s flat !

It will be fun , it's cheap , and I have a enough common sense not to destroy my heads !

[BSB67]

As always, there is a little more to the story.  This is an ongoing rivalry that goes back a bit, I stayed ahead for a long time but he made some gains after I quit taking the fastback to the strip.  If it was just some new punk on the scene it wouldn't worry me.

Certainly agree with staying focused on what you want.  But I do find that sometimes what people think they want is not what they really want in the end.  

My 11 second exhaust manifold street car is exactly what I wanted, and planned for.  Exactly.  I like it, am proud of it, and learned a lot building it my way, and have no regrets.  That said, I'm not having as much fun as I did with my high 12 second, nearly stock car.  It was probably the kind of car/performance that you are talking about now. (This is why I know you can run 12 w/o a ported factory head).  The reason is because of the friendly rivalry that several of us had with similar cars, similar performance and similar interests.   The guy with the fastest car would change a couple times a season, and this went on for several years.  We would hit the track 8 to 10 times a year.  We all started in the 14s and all ended up in the 12s.  It was tremendous fun.  No strokers, no aluminum heads, no big cams, no slicks, no stupid gears or convertors.

I'm now collection the parts for my next engine,  stock stroke 440, with manifolds of course, pump gas and factory iron head with stock size valves.

Just putting this out there for you to think about.....don't loose focus on the fun part.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Plenty of power can be made with iron heads....
  Stock 906's. Stock ports, not allowed to modify them in any way for the class. Even runs stock valve sizes. At maple grove last weekend he went 10.40's carrying the wheels damn near to the 60 ft.

[don duick]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power.


Ron

my cam is 224/236 @ 50. On the dyno it peaked at 4400 and maintained till 4800. Have I installed it wrong? It was installed straight up and is 0ne crankshaft degree advanced when I compared it to the cam card.

[BSB67]

The stock cam is all done by 5500 anyway so over revving it won't make anymore power.


Ron

my cam is 224/236 @ 50. On the dyno it peaked at 4400 and maintained till 4800. Have I installed it wrong? It was installed straight up and is 0ne crankshaft degree advanced when I compared it to the cam card.

It might be a little low.  We will need more information about the cam, springs, and what the power curve looked like past 4800.

[rt green]

maple grove.  what state?  any more info on the car?

Plenty of power can be made with iron heads....
  Stock 906's. Stock ports, not allowed to modify them in any way for the class. Even runs stock valve sizes. At maple grove last weekend he went 10.40's carrying the wheels damn near to the 60 ft.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Sure. What do you want to know? Its a real M code roadrunner 440 6 pack car with 3000 origonal miles on it. All gained 1/4 mile at a time. It runs in nhra stock.

[Ghoste]

To be fair though, those stock iron heads in that car which are unmodified have likely had more money and time spent in them to blueprint to perfection than many well modified aftermarket weekend warrior racers.  He could well have more money in his Stock Eliminator heads than some guys on the street spend in their shortblock.

[c00nhunterjoe]

To be fair though, those stock iron heads in that car which are unmodified have likely had more money and time spent in them to blueprint to perfection than many well modified aftermarket weekend warrior racers.  He could well have more money in his Stock Eliminator heads than some guys on the street spend in their shortblock.

The point was that power can be made with stock valve sizes and unmodified bowls/runners. And to add more head scratching to the mix, its a stock lift, hydraulic cam in it. .470 if i recall for the 6 pack cars? Dont quote me on the actual lift but it is whatever stock was for a 69 440 6 pack car.
  And it further backs up the famous quotes that are frequently uttered among many members here, heads are the key followed by a build that is properly matched.
   The stock eliminator class answers all of your questions from the origonal post: are stock heads enough? Will they choke tye motor, will they make power. The bottom line, as always, is what do you want to spend, and what do you want to do.

[BSB67]

To be fair though, those stock iron heads in that car which are unmodified have likely had more money and time spent in them to blueprint to perfection than many well modified aftermarket weekend warrior racers.  He could well have more money in his Stock Eliminator heads than some guys on the street spend in their shortblock.

The point was that power can be made with stock valve sizes and unmodified bowls/runners. And to add more head scratching to the mix, its a stock lift, hydraulic cam in it. .470 if i recall for the 6 pack cars? Dont quote me on the actual lift but it is whatever stock was for a 69 440 6 pack car.
  And it further backs up the famous quotes that are frequently uttered among many members here, heads are the key followed by a build that is properly matched.
   The stock eliminator class answers all of your questions from the origonal post: are stock heads enough? Will they choke tye motor, will they make power. The bottom line, as always, is what do you want to spend, and what do you want to do.

And the Pure Stock guys are running in the 11s at 115+ with considerably less rule bending and $$$ on the heads, and more restrictions on the equipment around the heads.  Not to confuse it with factory original,  but still shows what can be done in the realm of factory heads without too much work.

[c00nhunterjoe]

To be fair though, those stock iron heads in that car which are unmodified have likely had more money and time spent in them to blueprint to perfection than many well modified aftermarket weekend warrior racers.  He could well have more money in his Stock Eliminator heads than some guys on the street spend in their shortblock.

The point was that power can be made with stock valve sizes and unmodified bowls/runners. And to add more head scratching to the mix, its a stock lift, hydraulic cam in it. .470 if i recall for the 6 pack cars? Dont quote me on the actual lift but it is whatever stock was for a 69 440 6 pack car.
  And it further backs up the famous quotes that are frequently uttered among many members here, heads are the key followed by a build that is properly matched.
   The stock eliminator class answers all of your questions from the origonal post: are stock heads enough? Will they choke tye motor, will they make power. The bottom line, as always, is what do you want to spend, and what do you want to do.

And the Pure Stock guys are running in the 11s at 115+ with considerably less rule bending and $$$ on the heads, and more restrictions on the equipment around the heads.  Not to confuse it with factory original,  but still shows what can be done in the realm of factory heads without too much work.

Yup. Ive never wandered the pits to see or talk to the pure stock guys though. I know several of the stock guys and the roadrunner is really a work of art. When you look under the hood, she looks bone stock other then headers and an electric drive water pump. It has leaf springs and torsions bars. No funny busniss. Full and functional interior and full factory weight. The car is amazing on a 9" tire. If you ever want to experience mopars and what the factory components are capable of, you need to watch stock for sure.

[Ghoste]

I'm quite aware of the restrictions in Stock and PSMD so I do understand your points.  Also not exactly a newbie either so I'm also aware of how much power cubic money can provide.  Perhaps I should put the word cost behind mild.  Or maybe I'm just asking the wrong question too. 
All good, your answers are all welcome and all helpful.

[c00nhunterjoe]

In my opinion, the best "bang for the buck" for someone who isnt racing or cares about origonality, is the edlelbrock heads. From what i have seen, out of the box, they are "good enough" to bolt on and go and mKe decent reliable mild power. The stealth heads are a close 2nd but when you have to replace springs locks and retainers out of the box, you might as well buy the eddys. Either one is a good choice for a mild street engine though.
   But nothing is better then blowing the doors off a mustang, popping the hood, and saying "yup, my stock headed 383 just busted your a#$!!!!!

[Ghoste]

Or a smallblock Chevelle. 

[don duick]

don't know about using eddys out of the box. Their locks and retainers don't look good. I had mine checked and needed 2 exhaust valves re-faced and 2 seats recut. The inlet ports need a bit of cleaning as the casting is rough.

[rt green]

that road runner must be a work of art. amazing time. you answered a lot of my questions on it already. what do you guys think that guy did to his heads to be that competitive?

[Ghoste]

Blueprint the hell out of it.  Make sure every chamber and port is exactly the same as the rest.  Valve seats must be perfect, spring heights, pressures.  They can't can't change anything so they make sure every single dimension and tolerance is precisely where it was engineered to be.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Blueprint the hell out of it.  Make sure every chamber and port is exactly the same as the rest.  Valve seats must be perfect, spring heights, pressures.  They can't can't change anything so they make sure every single dimension and tolerance is precisely where it was engineered to be.

Cant change ports or bowls. Decking is allowed but i cant recall the minimum cc for the chambers. You also have to remember, the cam is stock lift so porting the heads for high lift flow would be pointless.......

[firefighter3931]

Stocker heads are far from stock...anybody who thinks otherwise is diluting themselves. 

The rules get bent and broken all the time. Extrude porting is common and not visible to the naked eye. The cam profiles they use must be stock lift but that's it. The valve opening rates and duration are nothing like you would ever find in a typical street engine. Duration is off the chart. Big spring pressures to control the valve action. Open headers and high rpm launches (6500 rpm) are standard fare. The Chassis are superbly dialed in as well.

Just about every trick in the book is used to make these cars run as good as they do. 


Ron

[rt green]

wish I had a book of tricks.

[BSB67]

wish I had a book of tricks.

More accurately, these guys are the authors of the book of tricks, and their work is not published, and they don't talk much either.

I think what they are doing is far more sophisticated than extrude honing.  But I don't know anything.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Stocker heads are far from stock...anybody who thinks otherwise is diluting themselves. 

The rules get bent and broken all the time. Extrude porting is common and not visible to the naked eye. The cam profiles they use must be stock lift but that's it. The valve opening rates and duration are nothing like you would ever find in a typical street engine. Duration is off the chart. Big spring pressures to control the valve action. Open headers and high rpm launches (6500 rpm) are standard fare. The Chassis are superbly dialed in as well.

Just about every trick in the book is used to make these cars run as good as they do. 


Ron

i can assure you that his heads are not ported and pass all of the tear down measurements and tests. they dont just look at the parts, they go over them with a fine tooth comb. im not saying he doesnt have a ton of time and effort into them because that would be a lie, but they are not ported. same towards the cam. the stockers have a distinct sound to them because of the crazy custom profile cams. there is no mistaking the idle of a stocker. my buddy is very open, unlike alot of the guys are as you mentioned. the stockers are alot more open to talk then the superstocker guys. alot of them are very secretive and dont like it when you are trying to drool over their cars...lol. if you see this roadrunner in the pits, he is more then happy to show you the car and talk to you about it. he is a real class act and makes racing fun.

[Ghoste]

Makes sense though since the Super Stock guys are allowed to put a few changes in there.

[rt green]

I guess my goal is to be very competitive with my buddies. most are in the low budget bracket, but even still, they are getting very close to the 12 second mark. some are more modified than others. to be quick with these guys and have a close to stock 440-6 would be cool. I did buy a cam from bob k. he also said do a plunge cut on the 906's. I also have a 4 speed. engine is rebuilt but not in the car yet.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I guess my goal is to be very competitive with my buddies. most are in the low budget bracket, but even still, they are getting very close to the 12 second mark. some are more modified than others. to be quick with these guys and have a close to stock 440-6 would be cool. I did buy a cam from bob k. he also said do a plunge cut on the 906's. I also have a 4 speed. engine is rebuilt but not in the car yet.

I seriously doubt a stock rebuild 6 pack, 2 ton charger is going to be very competitive against 12 second cars. Only way is if they cant drive. You will need alot more work put into the engine and chassis.

[rt green]

well, that kind of goes down like a bad lunch. but i spose i'll have to eat it.

[BSB67]

I guess my goal is to be very competitive with my buddies..............they are getting very close to the 12 second mark.

This car was running 13.0s (at about 107) with about as stock of a car as you can get.

Good grief...forgot the pic the first time

[c00nhunterjoe]

well, that kind of goes down like a bad lunch. but i spose i'll have to eat it.

Lol. Not trying to bust a bubble. But I dont want to lead you on either.
 4 speed cars require a great deal of skill to drag race. Not to be mean, but can you actually shift? Ive seen plenty of cars go 3/4 to a full second slower then they should because of the driver's shifts.
  Then we have your engine. You said its basicly a stock rebuild with a cam? Do you know exactly what was done? Ie pistons used, decked block? You could have anywhere from an 8:1-10:1 engine depending on how it was done.
  If you have a healthy rebuild, sticky tires, decent gear, and your 4 speed sounds like a 727 when you shift, then I would say you can give your buddies a run for their money but to dip into the 12's is a stretch. Its not impossible, but dont get discouraged if it doesnt do it.

[BSB67]

Good grief...forgot the pic the first time

[c00nhunterjoe]

Good grief...forgot the pic the first time

Lol. I figured you were talking about your charger.

[rt green]

lets see. about 4 years or more ago I assembled this engine together. back then, I was buying High Life 30 packs and left alone in the garage with my own inventions. now I have to go through it again and double check myself.   I remember is sealed power 9.5 to one pistons at 30 over, six pack rods, '71 hp block and crank. arp rod bolts. don't know deck height. stock 906 heads. repo 440 mopar cam. decided to get a cam from bob k. and go through it again. when I get in there again, i'll know more. the machine shop said it passed for balance, but I see no marks anywhere. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

if i recall the sealed powers are sitting down in the hole pretty good. probably 8.5-9:1 if you are lucky. bone stock cam? hmm... if you can really yank some gears i would give you a mid 13 to maybe a 13.8 @ 102. thats still going to be respectable for a 45 year old 2 ton machine. i say take it to the track and see what she does! 

[rt green]

so, sitting down about say  10 thousands or so?  or more? I wish I could tell you the number, but I cant. the Bob K cam. he says he's done years of testing on six packs, and this was the best grind he's come up with. I hope I don't have to change pistons, but I will if I have to.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Honestly, if it runs good and isnt smoking,, I would take it to the track and see what she does. If you are happy with it then great. If not, then think about tearing it down to make it faster.

[heyoldguy]

I know the Edelbrock heads are wildly popular for all kinds of rebuild and I know a good performance refurb on a set of used heads can cost as much as aluminum ones.  But for a mild street build aren't the iron heads still just fine?  Or are they still the choke point and anything more than a bone stock cam is going to show that?  I'm talking about a close to stock engine with manifolds.

Well we dyno'd the 7.515:1 compression 400 with 346 factory iron heads, 2.14/1.81 valves. Summit 6400 cam 214/224 @ .050 .444/.466 lift and the dyno headers.

Heads flowed,

.100"............85 cfm int/58 cfm exh
.200.....................164/120
.300.....................217/168
.400.....................234/198
.500.....................253/212

With the stock 2bbl carb and intake it made 371 lb-ft @ 2900 rpm and 285 hp @ 4700 rpm.

So for the fun of it we installed a Holley Street Dominator and a Q950 and made two more pulls. 399 lb-ft @ 3400 rpm to 396 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm with a peak of 403 lb-ft @ 3900 rpm. 361 HP @ 5100 rpm.

Don't know if this will answer any of your questions or muddy the waters further still.

[Ghoste]

Haha, a little of both.

[heyoldguy]

So I guess you didn't see this where we swapped a 509 cam into a 440 with stock 906 heads and then changed to mildly ported 516 heads?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104749.0.html

[Ghoste]

I did, I read all of those.

[firefighter3931]

Heads flowed,

.100"............85 cfm int/58 cfm exh
.200.....................164/120
.300.....................217/168
.400.....................234/198
.500.....................253/212

That's pretty close to what an out of the box Stealth head flows. Those are nice numbers for a 516 casting which are known to be weak 

What would a set of those cost with new seats, valves, guides, springs, retainers, locks and the required portwork ?  I'm guessing well north of a set of Stealth heads ? 



Ron

[heyoldguy]

Heads flowed,

.100"............85 cfm int/58 cfm exh
.200.....................164/120
.300.....................217/168
.400.....................234/198
.500.....................253/212

That's pretty close to what an out of the box Stealth head flows. Those are nice numbers for a 516 casting which are known to be weak 

What would a set of those cost with new seats, valves, guides, springs, retainers, locks and the required portwork ?  I'm guessing well north of a set of Stealth heads ? 



Ron

Those were 346 heads used on the 400. The 516 heads were on the 440. Anyway, the 346 heads would be right at $1,570 at those flow levels.