Pissing me off!

[Bowers]

Hi Guys,
My 70 Charger will start occasionally when I turn the key, but most times it makes no noise at all. I have already changed the neutral safety switch and it started fine and then stopped again. How can I tell if it is the solenoid or the ignition switch? I can start the car by crossing the starter relay on the bulkhead. The car can also be started by turning the key and banging the starter. Thoughts?

[moparnation74]

I had the same thing happen to me in the past.  It was a bad ignition switch.  Especially, when it is intermittent.
That may be your culprit!

[Charger-Bodie]

Could be a bad starter or simply a bad connection at the starter if hitting it makes it go. Check the connections.

[ws23rt]

I like the banging the starter ----It could be a sticking solenoid on the starter
Beware--hitting your car won't fix it but it could help diagnose it.----I've done my share of hitting things and the fact that it sometimes works is a good clue.

Just don't get used to it.  Your car can't be trained by punishment.

[Bowers]

Is ther a way of testing the ignition switch?

[XH29N0G]

There should be a plug that goes into the harness, and you can disconnect that and check continuity between the posts on the plug at various settings with an ohm meter.  You will have a cranking position and an ignition on position.  I hope this is what you were asking when you asked about checking the switch.  Do you have a factory service manual?  That will help when trying to sort out what the different color wires are. 

[ws23rt]

If crossing the relay at the bulkhead always works but tapping the starter will also do it makes me suspect the relay on the bulkhead. The relay may be weak and unable to give the starter what it needs to pull the solenoid on the starter.
The ignition switch could be a partial problem but at this point (based on your description) it seems to be doing what it should do.

[Bowers]

The starter relay is brand new

[ws23rt]

The starter relay is brand new

Did you have this same problem before the new relay?

Edit--add  For what it's worth over many years of pulling my hair out dealing with this sort of thing the most common problem was a bad connection. More often than not a bad ground.  Example---a few weeks ago I wanted to take my bike for a ride (97 Valkyrie ). I spent two days tracking down an electrical problem that gave me all the wrong clues. I checked every relay and switch on the bike but the last check---Of course the last --- was an ohm check at the main ground to the engine. This connection was secure and clean but was the problem.
My point with this is no matter how many times we  have been through a puzzle like this we tend to dismiss the most likely as the least likely. I was fooled again.

This may not be your situation but it is for many.  You can look at your ground connection and say it's good like I did. Or you can take it loose and clean it so you know where to go next.

[moparnation74]

I PM'd you a way to test the ignition switch.

[bill440rt]

Have you tried starting the car in neutral? 

[Bowers]

Yes I had the issue before. I bench tested the starter and it engaged, so I changed the starter relay and still nothing. Then I changed the NSS and it started for a bit. Then it stopped again. I charged the battery to 100% and it started again and then stopped.

[Bowers]

Yes I tried neutral and nothing happens.

[don duick]

I have the exact same problem on my 70 charger. When I touch the yellow wire from the bulkhead it will work again. my relay is also new but I changed it again anyway. I also bypassed the neutral safety switch and ground it to the engine. When I test the faulty relay on the battery it always works. I also connected a second push button starter switch thinking my ignition switch is faulty but no it still wont work so is definitely relay problem. Driving me crazy I always keep a screwdriver in the car. Now have to wait and see how my new relay will hold up.

So the 4 possible causes are 1/ bad earth (neutral safety switch)  2/ faulty relay   3/ bad bulkhead connection (yellow wire)  4/ faulty ignition switch. I have a new mini starter so hope that is not part of the problem. Maybe post this in the electrical section with a heading like "starter problems" and someone there will know and give you better advice.

[Bowers]

Can I rule out the starter then because it turns over from the starter relay or could it be a bad solenoid?

[ws23rt]

Can I rule out the starter then because it turns over from the starter relay or could it be a bad solenoid?

You stated that turning the key and banging the starter works. If this is still the case than it's too soon to rule out the starter.
BTW how is the ground connection from the battery to the engine?

[ACUDANUT]

I have the exact same problem on my 70 charger. When I touch the yellow wire from the bulkhead it will work again. my relay is also new but I changed it again anyway. I also bypassed the neutral safety switch and ground it to the engine. When I test the faulty relay on the battery it always works. I also connected a second push button starter switch thinking my ignition switch is faulty but no it still wont work so is definitely relay problem. Driving me crazy I always keep a screwdriver in the car. Now have to wait and see how my new relay will hold up.

So the 4 possible causes are 1/ bad earth (neutral safety switch)  2/ faulty relay   3/ bad bulkhead connection (yellow wire)  4/ faulty ignition switch. I have a new mini starter so hope that is not part of the problem. Maybe post this in the electrical section with a heading like "starter problems" and someone there will know and give you better advice.

Good info !

[Bowers]

Ok this is what occurred today.
I changed the connector on the wiring harness from the ignition switch to the starter relay as the old wire was hanging on by a thread (actually it fell off as soon as I removed the pin) I put a new pin and wire into the harness and tried again, nothing. disconnected the wire from the relay and put a test light to the wire and turned over the cord, no light. Can I assume now that the issue is the ignition switch and if so where can I purchase one in Canada?

Thanks

[don duick]

I am from Australia and bought a new ignition switch for my 70 from e bay and had it shipped no problem. Be aware the ignition switch I bought has 2 movements before starting whereas my original switch has 3 movements before starting any way I never needed it as my original switch was OK. Try bypassing the bulkhead connector and put a wire direct from the switch to the relay and check it that way before buying a new switch.

[Bowers]

How would I do that and please explain it like I am 5. 

[don duick]

photo no.1 of 2

[XH29N0G]

First, if you need a switch, I think you can get it at an autoparts store.  NAPA should have them.  I bought one a few weeks ago at a local store in the US.

I am attaching several images that I think might help.  

One is a picture of the plug that connects up to the key switch.  

The second is a close up of some of the wires.  The Yellow, black, dk blue and brown are the starter, accessory, ignition 1 and ignition 2.  

The third is a picture out of the factory service manual of this switch and of how it goes to the bulkhead connector.  you will see S2-18Y (that is the yellow), J2-16DBL* is the dark blue with a tracer. It is actually connected (off the picture to J2A-16DBL* on the bulkhead.  The four wires I think you need to be most concerned about with the switch areB-1 (power in), Ign 1, Ign2, and starter (GOS to "T" on bulkhead connector).  You can pull the plug and check continuity between B1 and ign 1, ign 2, and starter at different key positions and it will tell you whether your switch is working.  You can also run a wire from these leads to other places to skip parts of the circuit if they are causing problems.  

The fourth image is of the engine side.  You will see wire coming from "T" in the bulkhead connector (feed through) to the starter relay.  This is what Don sent a picture of.  I think the starter connector is the one with the yellow and blue wire in his picture.

There are people on here who know much much more about this than me - and I have been teaching myself in the past few months.  I found the factory service manual indispensable, and a simple ohm meter perfect for testing continuity.

[Bowers]

Thank you both. Now can you explain to me how to check continuity with the meter? Learning as I go, I am completely brain dead when it comes to this stuff.

[don duick]

in the 1st photo you will notice the yellow wire, this is the one sets off the relay to start the motor. try connecting a live wire from the battery and the motor will start. You will notice a blue wire connected with it. This is another connection I installed to another push button backup switch I have under the dash in case my ignition switch doesn't work.

The second photo below is where the wiring harness comes out of the steering column. See the yellow wire on the end of the connection? This is the wire that connects to the relay. Somehow try to connect a wire to this and connect the other end to the yellow wire on the relay. If it works then you have a bad connection at the bulkhead connector. also try a test light to this yellow wire from the harness connection to determine if the ignition switch is ok.

photo 2 of 2
 

[don duick]

there was another reply which interrupted my 2 photos go back to the other photo against my name.

[Bowers]

I so step one is to take a live wire from the battery to the connection on the starter relay. Do I take off the yellow wire?
Second step is confusing. Should I unplug the switch harness and use a test light for power? Not sure how to connect a wire from the relay to the switch harness?

[XH29N0G]

Don,

That'd be me    sorry about that.  Clever set up you have.

Bowers,

Continuity is checked by checking the resistance.  It should be low.  I check with a multimeter.  I set it on a fairly low setting (not something like 20M (2 million ohms) because that is for finding current leaks caused by things like fingerprints), but something like the beeper setting or the 200 ohm setting.  The meter will then register a resistance close to zero when the wires are connected properly (or continuous).  All I am usually doing is trying to figure out if the wires are continuous.  Does that make sense.  It is a handy tool to have, and a cheap one (30-40$ at a hardware store) is what I use.

What I did was to get some  alligator clips on the ohm meter and connect one end to the place where the B-1 J1-12R wire (on the wiring diagram) goes into the plug part that leads to the key switch (this is the pin on the plug from the switch where the red line goes in to the switch),  I then did these four tests.  In one test, I connected the other end to the starter spot (where the yellow (S2-18Y) wire goes in and saw if there was continuity when I turned the key to the start position (all the way on).  The second test was to connect to the accessory  (Q2-12BK) spot and check for other key settings, and the next two were the next two wires (ignition 1 and ignition 2) and figure out what key setting they worked.  My understanding is for a points car, they have two of these (one for start and one for run) because there is something different that happens on start compared to run with the ballast resistor and they connect up on different sides of the resistor.  If you have an electronic ignition, they may be redundant.  Anyway,  I checked all of these and saw how the switch made various connections in its various positions.

Part of the fun ( ) of these things is learning this stuff.  Hopefully we only have to learn it once.

[Bowers]

I have an ohm meter, not sure how to use it, lol
Do I unplug the switch harness and check the female ends?

[A383Wing]

wondering if that's not yer whole problem....lots of 70's have bad neutral safety switch connector issues

[Bowers]

I have put in a new Nss. How do I check that? There is no power coming out of the t bulkhead connector when the key is turned.

[don duick]

part one to your question,  yes take yellow wire off relay.

Now the second part of your question do not unplug harness as you will have no power and nothing will work. try and shove a wire into either side of the connector with the yellow wire. I know this may be difficult, the point is you have to somehow try and make a connection with this yellow wire. then run this wire out of the car and under your hood and connect it to the relay. If it works then you know you have a bad connection at the bulkhead connector.

Another thing you might want to try is disconnect the plug at the bulkhead in the engine bay and spray both sides  with WD40 and look at the terminals inside the bulkhead connector and bend them a bit with a small screwdriver to get a tighter fit, better connection.

 

[Bowers]

You guys are great!
XH- I am just checking the male connector pins by putting the black clip on b1 and then the red on the others and turn the key? Look for a variance?

[Bowers]

Don if it doesn't work can I assume it is the switch? Does the whole column have to come off to change the switch?

[don duick]

try the live wire to relay 1st to make sure the relay is working. Then try the switch on the relay also try a test light on the switch. If you are 100 % sure your switch is faulty and you want replace it, you do not have to remove the column only the bracket that holds the column in place. (7 bolts).

when you get the new switch you can plug it in and try it first before you start pulling you column apart. Bet you wont be happy if it does not work. 

If you go ahead and replace the switch careful with the steering lock mechanism upon reassembly. What happened to me was the lock would not engage and lock the wheel. Turned out the spring moved slightly and restricted the movement of the small lever that locks the wheel.

[Bowers]

Ok so the car started with the wire from battery to starter relay and it started with wire in switch harness to starter relay. So this suggests it is the bulkhead connector. What is the fix for this issue?

Thanks

[A383Wing]

might be a wise idea to get a service manual if you already don't have one

[Bowers]

Thanks So Much for all your help. I cleaned out the bulk connector and bent the pin as it wasn't staying in place. We now start with the key!!!

You guys are AWESOME!  

[moparnation74]

Glad to hear you got it fixed!!!

[don duick]

Thanks So Much for all your help. I cleaned out the bulk connector and bent the pin as it wasn't staying in place. We now start with the key!!!

You guys are AWESOME!  

I think I am happier than you are