The 2X2 cars

[Ghoste]

Why were they called that?

[Baldwinvette77]

you mean 2+2? 2 people up front, and 2 more seats in the back 

[Ghoste]

Not 2 plus 2, 2 by 2.  It was a lowered NASCAR Charger that was banned.

[Baldwinvette77]

When the 1968 Road Runner/Charger wasn't fast enough, the aero program was started and ended up with the Charger 500 and the Daytona. There was also a chassis program that developed the 2X2 concept. The idea was to lower the front of the car by 2". This was both for aero and to lower the CG. The difficulty in doing this was the engine height. The engines were still wet sump then and we had as shollow an oil pan as we could make work.,That left the area from the CL of the crank to the top of the air cleaner controlling the height of the front portion of the body.The block and heads were pretty well fixed in height, so was the carburetor. There was a minimum height between the top of the carburetor and the inside of the air cleaner that would flow enough air to let the engine make the necessary Horsepower. If we wanted to lower the front of the body by 2", we had to sink the carburetor 2" into the manifold. Engine design designed such a manifold and the prototype was fabricated from plate and sheet steel by welding. To make this all work the plenum area under the carburetor was about 2" below the bottom of the inlet ports. This was barely acceptable for a race car but would never work on the street, Fuel would puddle up in the bottom the the plenum and the drivability would be unacceptable.

The 2X2 manifold just barely worked. The phony #88 has a stock manifold, and as Larry and I saw when we looked at it the air cleaner has been cut down to fit under the hood. OK for testing, but there would never be enough power to race that engine. At least three 2X2 manifolds must have been made. They were probably scrapped when the X2 cars were outlawed.

The 2X2 program was a major effort. Too bad it had such poor results. Cale won with a two lap lead. Derringer was three laps back with the first Mopar, the 2X2 Plymouth. I believe that NASCAR made us run the cars 2" higher than we had designed them to run once they figured out what we had done.

Copy and pasted from ze internetz 

[Aero426]

When the 1968 Road Runner/Charger wasn't fast enough, the aero program was started and ended up with the Charger 500 and the Daytona. There was also a chassis program that developed the 2X2 concept. The idea was to lower the front of the car by 2". This was both for aero and to lower the CG. The difficulty in doing this was the engine height. The engines were still wet sump then and we had as shollow an oil pan as we could make work.,That left the area from the CL of the crank to the top of the air cleaner controlling the height of the front portion of the body.The block and heads were pretty well fixed in height, so was the carburetor. There was a minimum height between the top of the carburetor and the inside of the air cleaner that would flow enough air to let the engine make the necessary Horsepower. If we wanted to lower the front of the body by 2", we had to sink the carburetor 2" into the manifold. Engine design designed such a manifold and the prototype was fabricated from plate and sheet steel by welding. To make this all work the plenum area under the carburetor was about 2" below the bottom of the inlet ports. This was barely acceptable for a race car but would never work on the street, Fuel would puddle up in the bottom the the plenum and the drivability would be unacceptable.

The 2X2 manifold just barely worked. The phony #88 has a stock manifold, and as Larry and I saw when we looked at it the air cleaner has been cut down to fit under the hood. OK for testing, but there would never be enough power to race that engine. At least three 2X2 manifolds must have been made. They were probably scrapped when the X2 cars were outlawed.

The 2X2 program was a major effort. Too bad it had such poor results. Cale won with a two lap lead. Derringer was three laps back with the first Mopar, the 2X2 Plymouth. I believe that NASCAR made us run the cars 2" higher than we had designed them to run once they figured out what we had done.

Copy and pasted from ze internetz  

Those are the words of George M. Wallace.

Once again, the first generation 1968 cars were already cheated up.  The X 2 cars developed by mid-season took another bite at the apple to lower the front an additional 2".     When they were caught, it all went out the window.   Translation: a lot of work for nothing.  

[Ghoste]

So this intake would be like the bathtub intake on steroids?

[Aero426]

So this intake would be like the bathtub intake on steroids?

Bathtub intake with the carb sunk in further than normal. 

[Mike DC]

The main component of the 2x2 conversion was bodywork.  The severe "bathtub" intake was an additional item required to keep the engine fitting underneath the hood once all that bodywork was done.

They would separate the roof/sides of the body from the floors/rails as if it was a giant plastic model.  Then weld it back together with the roof/sides positioned differently on the undercarriage.  The outer skin was both lowered a couple inches and also raked a couple degrees compared to stock.

It seems like a load of work to lower a car.  But keep in mind this was right around the time when NASCAR teams were first starting to re-skin their aging chassis with the roof & sides of a newer model. 




I've wondered why the aero-car designers didn't slap a hood bulge onto the aero cars.  It seems like a very easy way to free up some extra HP compared to some of the other lengths they were going to for gains on that project.  Even if the 2x2 lowering was outlawed I'm sure the engine guys would have loved a couple extra inches to clear a higher-rising intake.

[RallyeMike]

Cool info. 

[Ghoste]

So this intake would be like the bathtub intake on steroids?

Bathtub intake with the carb sunk in further than normal. 

Yeah thats what I meant.  Interesting, I knew about the bodywork but not the intake and thats second "2" was what confuzzed me.  I don't know about adding a hood bulge, it would mean retooling for the stamping not to mention the red tape internally to do such and I don't think many intakes of the day had issues with clearance?
Do any of the 2X2 bathtubs exist today?

[odcics2]

Cotton had one in 2011.  It was off the '68 2x2 #6.
We were too far apart on $,$$$.   

[Ghoste]

Four "$" signs noted.

[BPTRacing]

something like this???

[Ghoste]

Isn't that a standard bathtub?

[Indygenerallee]

Looks sunk in where the carb sit to me!

[Ghoste]

Aren't the standard ones sunk a little?  It doesn't look like a two inch drop to me I guess. 
Just asking as I was always a fan on the drag side so you need to indulge and educate me some.

[tan top]

 picture below ,  of a Hemi nascar motor , was on ebay a few years ago , was said to be a spare Ray Elder motor     note the thickness of the top plate , (lid)of  the intake  


(usless bit of info , I think this motor is now going in the Olympic express French  third generation  lemans charger )


second picture is  of the #6 buddy baker Daytona show car ,  looks the same intake as (BPTR ) posted  

[odcics2]

Those are both standard bathtub intakes.
"2x2" specific intake was sunk wayyyyyy lower in the middle!

"Fake 88" at the museum has a 'squashed' carb inlet on the air bonnet,
so the hood will close.

[Ghoste]

Do any photos of them exist. 
I've been searching the net and not having much luck.

[BROCK]

The 1st & 3rd pic show the lid sitting way down on the base compared to the middle pic.  That middle pic has a deep skirt to raise the whole lid!  Was there a single carb drag bathtub?

[Ghoste]

I don't think the drag cars ever ran a bathtub?  They had the STR with interchangeable tops and a similar appearance but I don't know about an actual bathtub style.

[odcics2]

I don't think the drag cars ever ran a bathtub?  They had the STR with interchangeable tops and a similar appearance but I don't know about an actual bathtub style.

[Aero426]

This is a later style manifold after Petty took over the Chrysler circle track parts operation.     Standard issue.   

I've never seen a photo of the 2 x 2 manifold.   If they exist, they are in hiding.

[BPTRacing]

Apparently there were a few different thickness's available.

[Mike DC]

Yeah thats what I meant.  Interesting, I knew about the bodywork but not the intake and thats second "2" was what confuzzed me.  I don't know about adding a hood bulge, it would mean retooling for the stamping not to mention the red tape internally to do such and I don't think many intakes of the day had issues with clearance?
Do any of the 2X2 bathtubs exist today?

I meant they could have added a hood bulge during the C500 or Daytona projects.  By that point the engineers had a green light to do anything they wanted for the slightest HP gains. 

I would expect a higher-rising intake on the race Hemis to add some extra HP over & above the regular NASCAR intakes, never mind the 2x2 ones which were compromised even farther for clearance.