727 - '2' left over bolts? Are these for the transmission?

[72Charger-SE]

Ok... So I completed rebuilding the pump assembly and the front clutch.  Things are going however I am taking it slow so as not to damage any parts.  As stated in the manual I soaked all clutch discs in ATF for almost four hours.  I created my own 'three legged man' to remove the clutch springs from the front clutch so I could replace the seals..  You will probably all get a kick out of those photos... LOL..   I just used what I had lying around as I didn't see the need to spend $100 or so for the proper tool.   It worked.. LOL...

I am however having issues getting the 'snap ring' back in place on the rear clutch...  It would appear I do not have enough 'clearance'.

I followed the 'manual' exactly as stated in the photo...  

Am I supposed to 'compress' the clutch to get the snap ring into place?   Thoughts?  

To help me troubleshoot I removed the piston retainer so I could see if possibly something was bound up and not sliding...  That does not appear to be the case...  

Thanks to all in advance & GOD Bless!

[72Charger-SE]

A few more photos...

[ws23rt]

I believe the snap ring you are talking about is the "selective" snap ring.
The FSM calls for a clearance of .025"-.045" If yours won't fit you need a thinner one to give the clearance spec.

[72Charger-SE]

Is it possible I have the wrong snap ring in the wrong place?  I have zero gap to install the selective snap ring....

[c00nhunterjoe]

Also might want to rearrange the springs. If i recall, making it every other spring will firm up the shift. John kunkel should chime in as one of our resident 727 experts.

[ws23rt]

Is it possible I have the wrong snap ring in the wrong place?  I have zero gap to install the selective snap ring....

You posted a pic of the assy. sequence. --- --Could you have put the piston spring in upside down?

[72Charger-SE]

The lowest portion of the piston spring is towards the sprocketed opening ...  I think that is correct??

[ws23rt]

It is
In one of your photos I see a wave ring sitting on top. Is that an extra?

When installing the wave spring make sure it is in the groove all the way around.

[72Charger-SE]

That is the top snap ring that I cant get on...

[ws23rt]

The top snap ring is a flat ring. (the selective ring). That one looks like the wavy one that holds the spacer ring on the piston ring.

[72Charger-SE]

The really wavy one is holding the piston spring...  is this minimum wavy one supposed to be the top ring on the front clutch???

[ws23rt]

The top ring is a flat one. They come in different thickness to give the spec clearance.

[72Charger-SE]

Hmmm
I will take the front clutch snap ring off and try that on the rear clutch...

[ws23rt]

Hmmm
I will take the front clutch snap ring off and try that on the rear clutch...

That won't help.  It looks like you have no room for a snap ring according to your photo.
What I think you did is put the spacer ring in ahead of the piston ring. --- Refer to your exploded view of assembly sequence.--
The spacer ring is smaller diameter and does not fit the snap ring grooves.  It follows the piston spring.

BTW their are only wavy snap rings and flat ones.  A flat one can be twisted but not wavy.

[72Charger-SE]

Confirmed spacer ring is between the wavy snap ring and the piston spring as shown... other ideas??

[ws23rt]

Ok---I will make an assumption that the wavy snap ring is in fact seated in the groove.--Expanded when installed---
I would next put the old friction discs back in and if it all goes together than it is clear the new friction discs are thicker.  

Or measure them individually.  Also you may have mixed up the discs from the front clutch vs the rear

[72Charger-SE]

The discs are thicker...  able to install with old discs. ..  I may have the clutch discs incorrect however with these discs on the front was topped out with nowhere to put the snap ring...  what is a distinct difference with the discs?  The ones I am trying to install in the rear clutch are more grooved and notched...  the front clutch discs were flat with no grooves... correct or?

[ws23rt]

The grooving or notching is a difference of manufacturing/performance style. They need to be the correct thickness.

I think we have reached the end of my help.   I have some parts that  I was able to measure and in one case the front friction discs are about 3/32"-->090"
Some rear discs measured 1/16"-->062"  
This is not a good tell because they have miles on them.  All I could find is the front discs should be around .094" to start with.

I am stumped.---Look forward to others input on this.

John_Kunkel  will most likely see this and have the answer

[c00nhunterjoe]

I know the forward clutches had different thickness discs depending on if it was 4,5, or 6 disc drums but i cant recall if the rear is the same way depending on years and models. Its been a while since i did a torqueflite and i will have to dig out my book. Jihn kunkel will be able to rattle the answers off the top of his head. 

[72Charger-SE]

Thanks everyone..  I tried to swap two flat with two grooved and visa versa...  no go..  now I cant get either snap ring to seat properly?  Maybe order another smooth set of discs?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would consult with john before ordering more parts. 

[72Charger-SE]

I shall wait for Dear 'John' before proceeding.  Thanks again...  That sounds kinda funny... LOL...

[c00nhunterjoe]

Lol. He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the torqueflight. Its well worth the wait for the conversation.

[375instroke]

If I remember correctly, the rear clutch plates are either smooth, or have grooves in only one direction.  The front clutch has a waffle pattern on them.

[72Charger-SE]

Waffle is a good term for me to understand...  Initially I tried the waffle pattern on the front with the same problem...  no clearance for the snap ring...  these new ones are much thicker than the old ones... The old ones don't have the waffle design. Or at least it is no longer visible due to wear?  All four smooth as well as the old rear clutch discs work in both the front and rear clutch with clearance for the snap rings... 

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I have rebuild many torqueflites. You probably have the discs in the wrong drum. The front clutch discs are .095 and the rear ones are .068. The front and rear clutch snap rings are "selective" meaning they come in different sizes to allow you gain the proper front clutch clearance. You will want around .060 clearance on the front clutch and .040 on the rear clutch. There is also thicker steels to allow you to gain the correct clearance. The steels are the same .068 thickness on the front/rear clutch. 
When you replace the clutches the clearance MUST be checked and adjusted or you will have major issues. Buy 1 of each snap ring they are cheap.https://www.tsr-racing.com/chrysler-a727.html?cat=178&p=1
Check the clearance by installing all discs/steels and then the pressure plate. With a feeler gauge check the clearance between the pressure plate and snap ring. Install a thicker or thinner snap ring to get the desired clearance.

Also I think you have the rear clutch wavy snap ring in the wrong groove. You first install the cone shaped return spring, then install the wavy snap ring, it holds it in place. It can be difficult to get in the groove on the bottom. Then install a steel and then vary the .068 clutches and remaining steels. Then the thick pressure plate goes on and then the selective snap ring.
TSR racing is a great place for 727 parts and they have the best overhaul manual money can buy.

[72Charger-SE]

70-500-SE...   I attached a photo of the spring, spacer, and 'wavy snap ring'.  Is this portion of the installation correct?

I am certain I have something (one or more) done incorrectly...   It is just a matter of figuring out what I did wrong...     Thanks to all for your advice and assistance.  

Thanks!

[72Charger-SE]

70-500-SE...

The next item I installed is the 'beveled side down' pressure plate...  this looks to be correct since the markings on the top of existing clutch spring line up perfectly with the 'beveled edge'.  I then install waffled disc/steel/waffled disc/steel/waffled disc/steel/waffled disc/top pressure plate.  And this is what I have left at the top...  no room to install any type of snap ring...   

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Looks like you have the assembly installed correctly. The Belville spring goes first, then the spacer ring, then the wavy snap ring followed by the beveled edge of the pressure plate down, then four clutch plates/steels, large flat pressure plate, then selective snap ring. I believe you must have the thicker .095 front clutches installed. This will cause the same problem you are having with the installed height and not allow the snap ring to fit. Also why is the snap ring on the top wavy?? It is supposed to be flat.
Let me know how you make out.

[72Charger-SE]

Looks like you have the assembly installed correctly. The Belville spring goes first, then the spacer ring, then the wavy snap ring followed by the beveled edge of the pressure plate down, then four clutch plates/steels, large flat pressure plate, then selective snap ring. I believe you must have the thicker .095 front clutches installed. This will cause the same problem you are having with the installed height and not allow the snap ring to fit. Also why is the snap ring on the top wavy?? It is supposed to be flat.
Let me know how you make out.

I will swap the clutch discs tonight and get rear clutch completed. I am not sure why that ring is 'wavy'.  Perhaps it is a little twisted in places?  The 'wavy' ring installed above the piston spring is very defined in the waviness.

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Ok let me know how you make out. I would get a new snap ring yours is toast. They are cheap.  It cannot not be wavy or bent. It must be perfectly flat in order to check the clearance.. This clearance is very important. Too tight and your car will move in neutral and too loose your car wont move.

[John_Kunkel]

Two possible problems, either the wrong thickness clutch discs or steel plates...front clutch discs are .095" and rears are .061", steel plates are .068" or oversized .088".

There are also two different thickness pressure plates (see pic below) and the likely problem is the thick pressure plate (lower one in pic) is being used since the OP states he's using random parts. The thick pressure plate is pre-'65.

[72Charger-SE]

Two possible problems, either the wrong thickness clutch discs or steel plates...front clutch discs are .095" and rears are .061", steel plates are .068" or oversized .088".

There are also two different thickness pressure plates (see pic below) and the likely problem is the thick pressure plate (lower one in pic) is being used since the OP states he's using random parts. The thick pressure plate is pre-'65.

Thanks John...
I may have misguided...  My apologies...  The original 727 was torn down last week in an effort to rebuild it.  I am using the same parts with new discs, seals, gaskets, and the rebuild kit.  The 727 I have is a 1972 (built in Oct 1971).  I will mic the discs, and steel plates tonight...  the new steel plates are Raybestos and look a bit thicker than the original.  The clutch discs are much thicker than the original as the old ones were worn out...

Thanks again!

[72Charger-SE]

Ok..  I finished the rear clutch with the non-waffled discs..

The front however is another story...  same issue..  I have some exact measurements so perhaps this will help?

I took a video of the entire front clutch process.  I would like to post it for you to view however I am not sure where or how to do that here??

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Ok so you finished the rear clutch with the waffle discs isn't telling much... What thickness discs did you use? How were you able to get the snap ring in? What is the clearance you obtained?

You now have the same issue on the front clutch? How far away is the snap ring from fitting in the groove? As stated before you will need to buy the correct snap ring to obtain the correct clutchpack clearance. The .095 clutches, .068 steels and the .284 pressure plate are the correct thickness so I believe you just need a thinner snap ring.

[John_Kunkel]

The pics tell the tale, you have a 3-disc front drum, note location of snap ring grooves...won't be able to fit four in.

[72Charger-SE]

John,

You are AWESOME!!!  YOU ROCK!!!    

Thanks SO MUCH to everyone for helping solve this...  

I will remove one of the discs and plates...  which will fix my issue!  

For what it is worth I did not realize I only took 3 rings out of the front clutch.  I grabbed the bunch and stacked them on the bench not even realizing or counting them.  I see now that there are only 3 rings and 3 plates.   I am wondering why the FSM did not indicate a 3 or 4 disc option?  Oh well, problem solved.

YAY!!!

[72Charger-SE]

So...  this information creates a few other questions...

1.) Is 3 Discs in the front clutch enough for a street driver that will see 5% track time and 25% running hard time at most?
2.) Would adding more (6) thinner discs be a better way to ensure a long lasting transmission for running hard with occasional track time? 

Thanks & GOD Bless!

[72Charger-SE]

TCI Bolt-In sprag, housing seal and boot, shift kit, and replacement snap ring ordered...  should be here early next week.

I spent an hour or so attempting to clean the 41 years of caked on red clay mixed with transmission fluid and engine oil from the tranny case.  What a mess that was...  I plan to repaint the housing, install the bolt-in sprag, finish rebuilding the rest of the transmission components, and install the transmission in the car by October 7th.  We will see...

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Glad to hear you figured out the problem! The 3 clutch drums are not common. Most trans builders recommend the 4 clutch drum. Big blocks all had 4 clutches only slant 6/318 727's used 3 clutches. I would call TSR racing products and ask them for a 4 clutch drum. I got one from them for $75 because mine was cracked. Make sure you specify your trans is a 71+ which has a wide drum bushing. The other option you have is install 4 of the thinner rear clutches but they have less friction material and may wear out faster.

[72Charger-SE]

Glad to hear you figured out the problem! The 3 clutch drums are not common. Most trans builders recommend the 4 clutch drum. Big blocks all had 4 clutches only slant 6/318 727's used 3 clutches. I would call TSR racing products and ask them for a 4 clutch drum. I got one from them for $75 because mine was cracked. Make sure you specify your trans is a 71+ which has a wide drum bushing. The other option you have is install 4 of the thinner rear clutches but they have less friction material and may wear out faster.

Thanks for the advice - 70-500-SE...   I contacted a local Mopar guy here and he will swap me a 4 disc for my 3 disc.  Praise the LORD!! 
Picking up the 4 disc later this morning.. 

[72Charger-SE]

Well, I was partially correct..

The local Mopar guy had one that I picked up.  It needs a little sanding on the outside to get it all shiny again.  He charged me $25 (not bad) and said he did not want the 3 disc clutch.     So, I have more 'metal' for the scrap yard...   

[John_Kunkel]

I wouldn't run less than 4 clutches in any kind of performance 727. I have a lathe so I routinely cut a new snap ring groove in the 3-disc drums and I've actually seen a factory drum with two snap ring grooves.

Satan rules!

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I hope you got the drum with the wider bushing. The pre 1970 drums use a 1/2 wide bushing and the 71+ use a 5/8. You cannot swap them without changing the oil pump. The oil groove is a different location. 

[72Charger-SE]

Ok.  I am done rebuilding the transmission and also added the TransGo TF2 shift kit.  I ran into an issue and need your help...  The retainer clip for the tail housing shaft will not 'seat' properly...  any trick to get this into place??  You will notice or maybe you can't with these photos that the clip is above the retainer snap ring area..  ??

Thanks  & GOD Bless!

[John_Kunkel]

Reach in the slot with a flat-bladed screwdriver and pry the bearing until the snap ring pops in.

Satan rules.

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

If you did not set your endplay correctly you wont get that circlip to seat. There is a large composite washer that goes between the front oil pump and the front clutch. You set the endplay with various sizes washers. TSR has them. YOu need to attach a dial indicator to the front of the bell housing somehow and get a reading of the endplay by pulling and pushing the imput shaft in and out. If you have no endplay you wont be able to get the large circlip in. End play should always be checked after a rebuild. good luck!

[John_Kunkel]

The output shaft bearing should be firmly locked in place long before the input shaft end play is checked.

[72Charger-SE]

I used the same washer that was in the original build.  I suspect the washer may be an issue as I added another disc and steel to the front clutch.  Do you know the proper thickness of the correct 'washer' for a four clutch disc setup?

I can test the end play theory by putting the old 3 disc front clutch in and buttoning it all up.  I will then reseat the extension housing and see if I can get the circlip locked in place.  If I can I will check the end play. 

I will get the measurement for:
1.) Thickness of currently installed washer
2.) Approximate 'end play'

I will remove the extension housing and make sure I didn't damage the circlip thus preventing it from seating properly (not likely but possible, I guess...).

Thanks...

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Don't waste your time installing the old front clutch. With the extension housing bolted up and circlip locked in place and the front pump bolted up and tight with paper gasket in place (o ring can be left off now) see if the input shaft will move in and out. If so check the movement with a dial indicator. If I remember correctly the spec was .035-.110. You want to keep it on the low side. If you changed your clutch it is likely you will have to adjust the endplay.
I changed my front and rear clutch drums and my output shaft bearing snap ring would barely fit without forcing it with a screw driver. I had almost no endplay because there was a very thick .110 washer. It worked for my old clutch drums but not the new ones. Here are the various size thrust washers https://www.tsr-racing.com/chrysler-a727.html?cat=204&p=2
As John said, before checking the endplay you must first bolt up the tail-shaft. The output shaft bearing circlip must be locked in place before installing the front oil pump and checking the endplay. The bearing does take thrust therefore you cannot check the endplay until the circlip is seated.

[72Charger-SE]

Thanks 70-500-SE...   I called and spoke to 'Scott' (I believe) at TSR this morning.  He indicated I can pull up on the tail shaft and the circlip should lock in place.  He told me to try and see if that works when I get back home at the end of this week.  If it does then measure the end play.  If not to call him when I am in front of the tranny.   Thanks again & GOD Bless!

[72Charger-SE]

So...  after returning from my trip yesterday I headed out to the garage...  long flat screw driver in hand...   I gently pried the circlip housing up and tada... the clip popped perfectly in place...  I overlooked the simple fix.   Today I will do some end play measurements to make sure I am good to go.  Thanks to all for your help!  GOD Bless!

[72Charger-SE]

I am done with the transmission rebuild and have two left over bolts with square nuts...   These were in the same bolt/tool tray that I placed all the transmission items in and I am unsure where these go?   ??   Judging by the coverage of oil & dirt I would say they go somewhere on the outside of the transmission.   Thanks for your help & GOD Bless!

[68r/t]

Looks like the bolts that clamp the shift and kick down levers on.

[72Charger-SE]

That's it!!!     Awesome!!   Looking in the FSM to see how those are secured now.   Thanks & GOD Bless!