Why wasn't the 440 available with a 4 spd after 1972?

[sdweatherman]

Watching the Mecum Dallas auction today and noticed the 1973 Pontiac 455 super duty 4 speed car sell for some pretty high dollars. Did some looking and the 4 speed was available behind the 455 super duty in both 1973 and 1974. Does anyone know why Ma Mopar didn't allow the 4 speed behind the 440 in the Road Runners and Chargers for 1973 and 1974?

[twodko]

That was the time the insurance companies were giving muscle car manufacturers
a lot of grief about their huge HP cars and abysmal gas mileage.
Maybe it had something to do with that? 

[Chargerguy74]

The 440 bolted to a 4 speed wouldn't pass emissions tests.

[moparjohn]

Emissions?  I'm sorry, can anyone explain why an auto would change the emissions vs 4spd. I'm serious, not being a wise ass. MPJ

[sdweatherman]

The 440 bolted to a 4 speed wouldn't pass emissions tests.

I second that vote John. I am not an emissions/engine expert by any means, but I would need a much better explanation to accept that a change in transmission would alter the emissions enough to disqualify it for use.
Scott.

[ws23rt]

I'm interested too--
Along the same line the 09 man trans. challenger has a skip shift mechanism. When shifting from 1st at 19mph or so it will not allow moving into second. This is a messed up system because fourth gear is where one will get when not expecting it.  I am led to believe it is meant to train us to drive in a more economical way to stop the weather change
Was this same thinking in play in the early 70s?

[Ghoste]

In the case of the new Challenger it's likely a way to get as much mileage as possible during testing for CAFE standards to keep the fleet average high.

[Baldwinvette77]

I got my stupid emission testing license, the only thing they state about the 2 transmissions is that manuals idle higher (important when you are measuring a car at idle) , other than that, theres no major difference between the 2 in the real world, unless you shift at 7000 rpm  , but i was only told about '88 and newer cars since thats all we test in southern ontario 

[74Rallye]

Cost of insurance was higher for a 4sp.

[sdweatherman]

Two chimes for the insurance reason so far. But I don't think I am ready to call it all on insurance quite yet. You could still get the 4-speed behind the 400 big block. You would think that if it was just insurance, it would have been axed for the 400 also. Great dialogue so far guys - keep it going. 

[RiverRaider]

Hello,
It may have been market driven if the 72 model year had fewer ordered 440 four speed cars and/or they were selling slower than the automatics.
RiverRaider

[JB400]

I'm going to through my vote behind image.  For 73, Chrysler shifted their Charger lineup to a more luxurious car instead of the high performance car like the earlier cars.  Since they was trying to market the car to little old ladies and retirement age men, the last thing Granny is going to want in a car is a cheap manual trans.

[BrianShaughnessy]

I'm going to through my vote behind image.  For 73, Chrysler shifted their Charger lineup to a more luxurious car instead of the high performance car like the earlier cars.  Since they was trying to market the car to little old ladies and retirement age men, the last thing Granny is going to want in a car is a cheap manual trans.

Yup.   'Personal Luxury' car.

[dyslexic teddybear]

IIRC.......from an article I read, mid 70's, emissions were a big part of it.

Can't remember the car mag, but it stated manuals were a lot harder pass then autos.....there was a "puff" effect from shifting. Given the fairly crude emission and lack of FI at the time......makes sense to me.

[odcics2]

IIRC.......from an article I read, mid 70's, emissions were a big part of it.

Can't remember the car mag, but it stated manuals were a lot harder pass then autos.....there was a "puff" effect from shifting. Given the fairly crude emission and lack of FI at the time......makes sense to me.

[Chargerguy74]

The 440 bolted to a 4 speed wouldn't pass emissions tests.

This was something I first read quite awhile ago. I thought it was common knowledge. Guess not. I don't have any of my literature with me, but did a few google searches to try to find a credible source. I came up dry. I rember coming across this info in the shop recently as well, and read it out to my dad, who owned a 74 400HP 4 speed back in the day, but I have no clue what I was reading at the time. I'll try to find it.

[Nacho-RT74]

I thought it was still available in 73 but not anymore in 74

[Chargerguy74]

I thought it was still available in 73 but not anymore in 74

I recall us discussing this not too long ago on another forum lol

[Ghoste]

I didn't think it was but not too up on the 3rd gens.   

[EccentricMagpies]

I thought it was still available in 73 but not anymore in 74

I recall us discussing this not too long ago on another forum lol

I had to look at the numbers again because I thought it was a 73 option as well. There was a thread ~2 years ago on this topic.

[Ghoste]

And what did the numbers show?  Or the old thread?

[Nacho-RT74]

yea I remember have talked about that too, but couldn't recall the conclusion...

however 1973 dealership data book shows the conclusion LOL

[JB400]

Any ideas on the production numbers?  Has anyone seen a 73 equipped with the manual?

[EccentricMagpies]

here was that thread I was thinking of... somewhat of a different topic but it hit this one too.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,97437.msg1126399.html#msg1126399

Nice post Nacho.. thanks!

[Ghoste]

Any ideas on the production numbers?  Has anyone seen a 73 equipped with the manual?

Production figures show zero made.

[EccentricMagpies]

Then I seen this thread back from '08 talking about GG and his production numbers.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=40728.10;wap2

[sdweatherman]

IIRC.......from an article I read, mid 70's, emissions were a big part of it.

Can't remember the car mag, but it stated manuals were a lot harder pass then autos.....there was a "puff" effect from shifting. Given the fairly crude emission and lack of FI at the time......makes sense to me.

Great discussion guys. OK, three votes for emissions - and I can believe that there were possibly two different emissions criteria - a several minute average and a few seconds instantaneous criteria. Makes more sense to me now - and makes sense why the 4 speed was still offered on the smaller Cu In engines - easier to pass emissions. If anyone runs across any documentation on this subject to solidify it, please post.
Thanks again, Scott.

[ply72rr]

The Dana 60 was not available any longer and the Dana was mandatory behind 4 speed equiped 440 and Hemis.
There were only 23 spline 4 speeds after 1972 also and 440 and hemi engines required the 18 spline hemi transmission.

[Nacho-RT74]

mmm interesting theory!, but we got 9 1/4 anyway

[Ghoste]

The Dana could easily have still been installed, it was/is still being manufactured.  I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

[Nacho-RT74]

I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

[Chargerguy74]

The Dana could easily have still been installed, it was/is still being manufactured.  I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

I agree, but the '73/'74 (and '72 for that matter) 440 wasn't really defanged in comparison to the '71. The '73 440 was rated at 280hp and 380 ftlbs net. The published '71 440 numbers for Plymouth were 305hp and 400 ftlbs net. I think if this info was well known, the 72-74 cars wouldn't be written off as family/old man/straight up luxury cars by the "muscle cars ended in '71" people, or the "last year for the Charger was '72" PERSON (you know, cuz the '72 looks like a 71).

[Ghoste]

I was thinking in terms of available performance options but you make an excellent point about gross ratings versus SAE net.  Did the cam or heads change for the 72-72 440's?

[Challenger340]

I could be wrong here, just going to throw this out there....
But my recollection of the 4 speed Trans demise behind the 440's in the passenger cars specifically, was the switch to CAST Crankshafts in the 440's.
They just were not sure if the new CAST CRANKS in a 440's could stand up to the shock load of a 4 spd clutch dump over time.

The shorter stroke 400 Engines were given a reprieve with 4 spds being still available for a couple of years thereafter('73 & 74) as being a "weaker/safer" brethren, nonetheless,
it was felt the  4 stick was a little "risky" behind the actual CAST Crank 440's in the passenger Car lineup so was it dropped.

Interesting to note also;
The only Forged Steel Crank 440 Crank Engines in those years moving forward, were "using up" NOS Forged Crank stock for Truck production, a heavier application in conjunction with 6-pack rods(also being dropped)
That is why it is not uncommon to find '73 and '74 "Truck" 440 Engines with Forged Cranks and 6-pack Rods., just using up the remaining inventory stock.

[Chargerguy74]

Why the switch to cast if they were still using up forged cranks in the trucks? The 400 4 speeds were steel cranks in 73/74. Not sure why they would continue to run steel cranks in the 400 4 speeds, but choose to stop running steel in the 440, if stock was still available. I'm sure after the '72 production figures, they would've known not many would've sold anyway.

Ghoste, I'm not sure of the answer to your question. I'll have to look up some part numbers.

[Challenger340]

Why the switch to cast if they were still using up forged cranks in the trucks? The 400 4 speeds were steel cranks in 73/74. Not sure why they would continue to run steel cranks in the 400 4 speeds, but choose to stop running steel in the 440, if stock was still available. I'm sure after the '72 production figures, they would've known not many would've sold anyway.

Ghoste, I'm not sure of the answer to your question. I'll have to look up some part numbers.

Who knows.... all I am saying is my understanding was; they went to a CAST CRANK in the passenger car 440's.....  so no 4 speeds.

As it relates to the question "why no 440 Engine 4 speeds ?

[HPP]

Don't loose sight of the fact that emissions performance was/is looked at in fleet terms. If you can achieve even a .1% reduction in emissions across a million units, you have just met your obligation under the law to reduce total emissions. If a single option is bumping you above that line, then it doesn't take a lot of discussion to eliminate or change that option to pull things back in line.

[Chargerguy74]

Yeah, to me, it just seems like the reason they dropped the forged crank was because they dropped the 4 speed, and not vice versa. No reason to put the forged cranks in 440s if there were no 4 speeds, so use up the forged crank stock in the trucks.

[bordin34]

About a month ago I found a 73 Charger in a junkyard. It had a 440 with a 440 vin, a/c, a four speed with what looked like a factory floor hump, a standard dash, and a 9-1/4" rear.

[Chargerguy74]

About a month ago I found a 73 Charger in a junkyard. It had a 440 with a 440 vin, a/c, a four speed with what looked like a factory floor hump, a standard dash, and a 9-1/4" rear.

Was there a fender tag? Lots could have happened in 40 years. A Rallye dash would've been correct for a U code 73.

Didn't the 9.25" rear roll out during the '74 model year?

[bordin34]

I didnt think enough to check or take pictures of the fender tag and only took this one picture. It was definitely a U-code though. From the picture I can see it has the rallye valence too. I remember it had A/C too and was definitely a factory big block car.

[RallyeMike]

I think it was factored by most all of what is stated. The car industry was changing driven by insurance, emissions regulations and fuel prices. What we saw was an industry shift away from performance cars, including the loss of the Hemi, the six pack, and then the 440 4 speed. The performance industry continued to progressively decline for many years ..... and then came the dark ages of the 80's 

As far as 73+ 440 4 speed cars. I do not believe there were any. I have been interested in 73-74 Rally U code cars since I got my first in 1987 and I have never seen a legit 440 4 speed car. Of course there were not that many 73-74 U-code cars ever built, so if a few slipped through, they would be a small percentage of a small production run. I believe the factory literature is true that the biggest engine available with the 4 speed was the 400. As usual, if anyone is going to claim they know of a one of none car, they need to be ready to step up to the plate with definitive proof. I'd love to see one 

[bordin34]

This is the place the car is at if anyone is interested, East Brunswick Foreign and Domestic Car Parts .

[71charger_fan]

I would guess it was emissions but indirectly. It costs money to certify an engine/trans combo and the take rate for 440s as a percentage of sales was low and the percentage rate of manual trans orders was low across all engines. I'd surmise there was no point in spending money to certify an engine/trans combination that would likely sell in the hundreds if that much.

[HPP]

This was also the beginning of the financial decline of Chrysler, so I could see them not wanting to spend money on non profitable combinations.

[TUFCAT]

It costs money to certify an engine/trans combo and the take rate for 440s as a percentage of sales was low and the percentage rate of manual trans orders was low across all engines. I'd surmise there was no point in spending money to certify an engine/trans combination that would likely sell in the hundreds if that much.

  I support that as being the best answer.

[bordin34]

Apparently someone bought it and is trying to flip it. I found this ad on craigslist. Definitely not a rallye .
This is the description, "Original big block 4 speed car."

[Chargerguy74]

If not a Rallye (or not an SE) it wouldn't be a factory 440.

[EccentricMagpies]

Certainly not the original motor if it has AC.   4 speed - 440 of any B-body car were never ever equiped with AC.

[bordin34]

I remember the car being a U-code but I could be misremebering. I am however 100% sure it was not an M-code and was a factory big block. That would mean it has to be a 400-4 but I think I would have remembered a P or N in the vin.

[Kern Dog]

This was something I first read quite awhile ago. I thought it was common knowledge. Guess not. I don't have any of my literature with me, but did a few google searches to try to find a credible source. I came up dry. I rember coming across this info in the shop recently as well, and read it out to my dad, who owned a 74 400HP 4 speed back in the day, but I have no clue what I was reading at the time. I'll try to find it.

The same limitations hit Chevrolet and Pontiac performance cars in the later 70s. The Z28s were auto only from 77 until the new Camaro of 1982.
The reasoning that I see is that MOST people that drive automatics let the trans shift for itself 99% of the time. The engine revs up, upshifts, revs up, up shifts...
A manual trans does idle higher in neutral which is where it rests at stoplights. During operation, the engine revs up, then down during shifts, then up when the next gear is ingaged, etc. An engine in a manual trans car revs all over the place. All the rev up/down puts out more smog compared to the simply function of the auto trans.