How to turn 383 engine to find TDC?

[pmike]

I have a 383 in my '73, and I'd like to check the timing before I will go further in tuning the carburetor. The damper has the mark on it but other mark is missing, so I first I will need to find the TDC to set the marks correctly.

How should I turn the engine when finding TDC? It is a AC and power steering car so there's quite lot of stuff on the way.

I pulled the plugs and there seems to be no hope rotating it from generator or other belts? I guess I'll just have try to fit a socket/ratchet between the fan and damper/crankshaft nut, the belt pulleys come quite close to the fan - or are there any other tips or tricks?

Auto trans will not rotate the engine, even without a load, if I'd jack it up on the rear and rotate the tires, I have not tried..?

What size nut should the crank nut be so I could find a correct socket first, if that's the only way?

[justcruisin]

A socket on the crank is really the only way, you could pump some air into a cylinder with the plugs out but you wont be able to stop it when you want as easy as turning the crank with a bar. The nut should be 1 1/8". To check for true TDC you need to use a piston stop in number one hole.

[jdscofield]

disconnect the coil, remove the spark plug from the #1 cylinder, place your finger or thumb over the hole for the spark plug, and bump the engine by using a screw driver at the starter solenoid on your firewall.  when the air compresses and blows your finger off the head, that is top dead center.  the rotor on the distributor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug boot on the distributor cap.  when you time it, disconnect the vacuum advance from the carb and plug it.  then advance the timing 10 to 13 degrees.  engine should run like a champ.

[justcruisin]

I think he wants to establish true TDC, not just get her runnin.

[pmike]

Yep, I'll first have to find and make the mark at true TDC, to be able to set the correct advance.

Engine is running but firing in the pipes and stumbling when giving it more gas, it is definitely running rich but I'd like to first check the timing before leaning the carb.

I'll borrow a 1 1/8" socket today from work and try to fit it there, thanks for the nut size!

[BSB67]

I have a 383 in my '73, and I'd like to check the timing before I will go further in tuning the carburetor. The damper has the mark on it but other mark is missing, so I first I will need to find the TDC to set the marks correctly.

How should I turn the engine when finding TDC? It is a AC and power steering car so there's quite lot of stuff on the way.

I pulled the plugs and there seems to be no hope rotating it from generator or other belts? I guess I'll just have try to fit a socket/ratchet between the fan and damper/crankshaft nut, the belt pulleys come quite close to the fan - or are there any other tips or tricks?

Auto trans will not rotate the engine, even without a load, if I'd jack it up on the rear and rotate the tires, I have not tried..?

What size nut should the crank nut be so I could find a correct socket first, if that's the only way?

1) I think it is 1 1/4" socket.

2) Are you saying that the timing chain cover does not have a timing tab?  It might be difficult to find with AC.  If the tab is there, so are the marks.

So, going from memory from a long time ago, I think I used a 1 1/4" socket, a very short extension, and a breaker bar.  I think the breaker bar will still contact the fan blades but you can make it work.  If you loosen the fan belt you can eliminate that issue.  This is assuming that I remember correctly, and that the 1973 stuff is the same as the 60's stuff.

[pmike]

Thanks for excellent photos, I re-checked and there might be something in the location where there is the timing tab in yours, but if it is, it is badly blocked with an in/outlet of a (cooling?) hose.

I had a short time to spend and tried with a 1 1/8 socket and a bar, I think I can fit it there, when I loosen the fan belt, but could not get socket to fit, I'll have to try a 1 1/4 tomorrow!

[John_Kunkel]

The only way to find true TDC on an assembled motor is to place a positive stop to stop the piston travel short of TDC. This can be done by breaking the ceramic insulator out of an old junk spark plug and then threading the inside of the metal shell for a long bolt.

With the stop assembly installed in the #1 spark plug hole, rotate the crank clockwise until the piston hits the stop and mark the damper; then rotate the crank counterclockwise until the piston again hits the stop and then mark the damper. TDC is midway between the two marks.

The crank bolt is 1 1/4" but, with all the spark plugs removed, you can often turn the crank by hand.

[pmike]

I am going to try this hose and oil method described here http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs111b.htm  (half page down).

By the way, just to be absolutely sure, #1 cylinder is the driver's side front cylinder?

[BSB67]

I re-checked and there might be something in the location where there is the timing tab in yours, but if it is, it is badly blocked with an in/outlet of a (cooling?) hose.

Unless you are planning to relocate the timing mark on the balancer,  the mark you need will be at the tab.  Although obstructed, with a little effort you will be able to check and adjust the timing.  Usually the biggest problem is reading the timing tab.  You will probably need to get under there and clean it up.  Possibly put a mark that you can see at the timing location you need.

Good luck

http://store.440source.com/Factory-Timing-Cover-Long-Curved-Tab-5deg/productinfo/100-1058/

[pmike]

I will have to check again with a camera, if there is a tab there, only the very edge of it can be seen from above. My plan has been to mark both the damper/balancer and the reference point, and also measure and mark the desired advance degrees on damper. 

[BSB67]

I will have to check again with a camera, if there is a tab there, only the very edge of it can be seen from above. My plan has been to mark both the damper/balancer and the reference point, and also measure and mark the desired advance degrees on damper. 

Certainly do as you like.  But that timing tab has been used for 50 years.  I don't think your is any different.

What are you planning to use as a reference point?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Am i correct to guess that your lower radiator hose exits on the passenger side? If so, the tab is impossible to see from above. Crawl under the car and look up front the passenger front fender between the k frame and you will be able to see the tab. Setting the timing is a pain but with a dialback light its not too bad.

[BSB67]

Am i correct to guess that your lower radiator hose exits on the passenger side? If so, the tab is impossible to see from above. Crawl under the car and look up front the passenger front fender between the k frame and you will be able to see the tab. Setting the timing is a pain but with a dialback light its not too bad.

Was it a body style, or production year that had the passenger side water pump inlet???

[c00nhunterjoe]

Am i correct to guess that your lower radiator hose exits on the passenger side? If so, the tab is impossible to see from above. Crawl under the car and look up front the passenger front fender between the k frame and you will be able to see the tab. Setting the timing is a pain but with a dialback light its not too bad.

Was it a body style, or production year that had the passenger side water pump inlet???

Im not sure. Ive seen it on a few cars. I know big block trucks used them too. My car happens to have it as well but i dont know what the housimg came off of origonally. I set my timing from underneath after i marked 0 to be visable from below. Not hateful, just a few minutes longer then normal.

[pmike]

Am i correct to guess that your lower radiator hose exits on the passenger side? If so, the tab is impossible to see from above. Crawl under the car and look up front the passenger front fender between the k frame and you will be able to see the tab. Setting the timing is a pain but with a dialback light its not too bad.

That would be the correct guess! And the tab really seems to be there, now that I know what to look for, but it does not look as precise as one in BSB67's photos. Little of it can also be seen from top, I do not think I could see it from under the car, '73 has all kinds of rails on the way.. If I'd use it from above, do you think should the 0 degree point be at the driver side edge of the tab? There does not seem to be any marks on the tab? I do not have dialback light available but I could mark the degrees on damper.

Edit; http://www.440source.com/timingcovers.htm shows different timing tabs and from those I guess it would be the 2120627 as it does not look curved and not as long as the last one. And so it should have the degrees marked but if they are they must have been painted over based on my photos (which I took in hurry this morning before work).

What are you planning to use as a reference point?

If I will still have to mark my own marks with reference point, I might just attach and bend a thick wire near the damper, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a permanent mark but just to check the timing for now. Perhaps it still is better to try to make my own marks, as I have it already almost sorted

Was it a body style, or production year that had the passenger side water pump inlet???

Im not sure. Ive seen it on a few cars. I know big block trucks used them too.

I do not know what my engine came from, I have an another topic on trying to locate the numbers on it.. The radiator inlet housing has numbers 3698468 CFD on it, and a search infact tells that "Shown above is a 3698468 housing, Chrysler # 3698469 and 3769192. Used starting in 73, these are ideal for car applications using a right hand lower radiator hose." Well, so that might be the original housing for the car. I wonder if the housing would have been kept original if the engine has been swapped? Probably, to avoid having to swap radiators and such?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Yup. Thats the one. Scraper some paint off and look for the marks.

[jlatessa]

By the way BSB67, did you make or buy those slick engine turners
you have mounted at the water pump holes?

Great idea!

Joe

[PlainfieldCharger]

I am going to try this hose and oil method described here http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs111b.htm  (half page down).

By the way, just to be absolutely sure, #1 cylinder is the driver's side front cylinder?

You are correct...

[pmike]

1 1/4 socket did fit and it will be possible to rotate it from the damper nut. I will set the new marks as the timing tab is very hard to get to, as the engine/timing cover is from different car than the cooling hose inlet housing that hides it..

[c00nhunterjoe]

Yours looks the same as mine. Just find the marks on it. Gurantee they are there. A little brakleen will problem soften the paint up enough to wipe off with a rag.

[BSB67]

By the way BSB67, did you make or buy those slick engine turners
you have mounted at the water pump holes?

Great idea!

Joe

Made them a very long time ago, and use them all of the time.  Definately worth having IMO.

[pmike]

We did set the timing today with the friend, we used the original timing tab but checked first that damper mark was correct with the oil tube trick.

Strobe showed that the car was set for almost no initial advance at all.

We measured marked 10 degrees advance on damper as the marks on tab could not seen, ended setting initial advance at approx 15 degrees and engine feels now much better but still stumbles and fires in the exhaust when giving more gas. So tuning the carb will follow..