Reward for my VIN, fender tag, and title

[Patronus]

Scooby-doo thinks theres still something that isn't right here...

[TUFCAT]

Ruh Roh.... time for more Scooby Snacks?    Gosh I hope not! 

[typars]

Really ?  He bought the car and pulled it out from the spot it was sitting with a truck. Not a van or a car or a mini bike it was a truck. And no it was not sitting next to a gunman on a grassy knoll in Dallas.

[moparnation74]

Real J code car or not, without the original drivetrain present, it is not worth restoring it concours.  However, in the condition as it sits, it should be restored back to the racer it once was, I would think it would look Badazz that way.  You mentioned earlier you had all the other parts and I guess you mean the grille, interior, suspension, etc.  Those are nice to have and saves money but they do not verify the originality of a J code or any code charger.

I agree with everyone here the legal docs must stay with the body.  Rebodies, Dynacorn bodies, reproducing(build sheets, fender tags, etc.) is illegal and should be dealt with appropriately.  You either have it or you do not, period. If you do not have those items than you willingly purchased said car knowing that. If there is any mischief than a lawyer and the authorities are there to handle that, period.

[TUFCAT]

Real J code car or not, without the original drivetrain present, it is not worth restoring it concours.  However, in the condition as it sits, it should be restored back to the racer it once was, I would think it would look Badazz that way.

Exactly ^^^^

[BluesCuda]

Pulled it......


Very bad, choice of words.


They almost had me with the pic, however, first thing comes to mind, that car was not that far gone, and for sure, should have gone back together....
Now that I hear...., pulled it, were the tags pulled from the car to keep them and the car safe from thieves, while parked outside, and if the car went missing from behind that shop in early 2004, may the original owner at the time may have thought someone stole the car for scrap money?

Good Lord people.   Seriously?  Some of you read into things WAY too much.  I "pulled" my car out of the driveway this morning when leaving the house.  Does that mean I removed the VIN tag, etc from my daily driver this morning?  NO.  I "pulled" the car out of the driveway.  It's just that simple.  And you know what?  I'll be 'pulling' the car back into the driveway when I return home this afternoon.  (Rant off...still shaking my head at some of the posts on this thread.  I understand people can and will be skeptical, but c'mon. )

From what I gather, it is not known when, how or why the car ended up south of the St. Louis metro area.  What 'IS' known is the fact a mutual friend 'pulled' the car from the repair shop when they obtained it.   How they were made aware of the car, I do not know.  In general, car enthusiasts in the St. Louis area buying and selling an old Mopar -or- people looking for, or knowing about old Mopars being for sale come to this friend and their family when they hear of such.  It could be a case of somebody saying 'Hey, there's an old Mopar sitting down the road from my house.  Go check it out.'  It's just that simple.  Was it purchased for cash, livestock, or traded?  I have no clue, for quite frankly it is not my business to ask.  I am very confident in saying they had NOTHING to do with removing any documentation from this car, for they are well aware of the legalities and ethical ramifications that come along with that topic.  With that said, I found a picture of the car that I snapped in 2008 right after Typars purchased it and stored it at a friends place while he made room in his shed.  Using that timeline, I'd say the car was 'discovered' again that same year, for Typars purchased it not long after it was obtained by the mutual friend.  

So...the years between the car being sold in the Carolinas during 80's and 2008 is unknown, or muddy at best.  I now say muddy, for it is now known somebody advertised it on whatever website +/- 10 years ago with the documentation already removed.  Who that was and what geographic location is not known.  Where the passenger door ended up is a mystery as well.  It appears to still on the car when it was advertised by whomever.


Again, sorry for the initial rant in this reply. The internet in general can be very frustrating with armchair quarterbacks and people that pump their chests to inflate their egos or self-worth.   Thus the reason I do not post on Moparts as much.    

I have to get back to work, so I will not be back on this forum until later today or tonight.

Scott

[hawkeye]

As far as I can see, there is no story here.  A guy bought a rolling shell that may or may not have been a real j code.  Someone sold a vin plate, fender tag and title on ebay that may or may not have been original to this car.  Unless he can find a car masquerading as his car, everyone got what they paid for and no laws have been broken.   I find it interesting that he is crushed when people question his veracity but automatically assumes whoever has the vin, fender tag and title is a crook.   

[Dreamcar]

As far as I can see, there is no story here.  A guy bought a rolling shell that may or may not have been a real j code. 

Based on his first few pictures which include the fender tag, it probably is a real J code.

Someone sold a vin plate, fender tag and title on ebay that may or may not have been original to this car.  Unless he can find a car masquerading as his car, everyone got what they paid for and no laws have been broken.   I find it interesting that he is crushed when people question his veracity but automatically assumes whoever has the vin, fender tag and title is a crook.   

I don't remember him saying the buyer of the VIN is a crook. But, why would someone buy a VIN, tag, and TITLE to a hemi car if they didn't plan on using it? Removing the VIN and selling it, regardless on the condition of the car, should be illegal if it's not already. Buying one to use on another car should be as well. If the car becomes unusable, then the VIN, tag, and title should be unsuable as well. 

[Patronus]

If I were the owner I'd spend that $1K reward on replacing the title. Unless it's a 1/4 mile at a time that thing ain't gonna hit the street without it. I dig the car, great find. In the end, you have the car. I don't think whomever owns the paper can take it. Where are you as far as filing for a replacement?

[hawkeye]

"I don't remember him saying the buyer of the VIN is a crook."
I guess the part about "no questions asked" kind of gave it away.  And I agree, the guy that bought the stuff on ebay  is probably up to no good, but Typars is in no way entitled to the ebay items just because he bought the shell, for any amount of money.  Lets say, for the sake of argument, that Typars found this rebodied hemi car.  Who are the authorities going to believe, some one with the title, vin tag and fender tag with some restamped sheet metal or some one with a old rusty shell?  

[Moparpoolman]

As far as I can see, there is no story here.  A guy bought a rolling shell that may or may not have been a real j code.

Based on his first few pictures which include the fender tag, it probably is a real J code.

Someone sold a vin plate, fender tag and title on ebay that may or may not have been original to this car.  Unless he can find a car masquerading as his car, everyone got what they paid for and no laws have been broken.   I find it interesting that he is crushed when people question his veracity but automatically assumes whoever has the vin, fender tag and title is a crook.   

I don't remember him saying the buyer of the VIN is a crook. But, why would someone buy a VIN, tag, and TITLE to a hemi car if they didn't plan on using it? Removing the VIN and selling it, regardless on the condition of the car, should be illegal if it's not already. Buying one to use on another car should be as well. If the car becomes unusable, then the VIN, tag, and title should be unsuable as well. 

I truly think that the tags were never sold separately on ebay BUT along with the car, I have seen hard copies printed from DEC 2003 and JUNE 2004 that the car and the tags were advertised together.  Does anybody have an ebay auction documented that show ONLY the tags being sold??   It sounds to me that the body was taken from someone that had the car in one place and the tags in safe keeping and possibly going to restore it one day.  Now how would you report your car stolen if the Vin tags were not on it??  I would think that Typars should know if he had a transaction for the car.  I also think that if Typars bought it from a friend, the friend would know if there was a transaction from where he got the car.  It seems as though the KEY players in this deal don't know much about any transactions, Why is that???
  On another note,  I have a mopar project in the works that is a bare shell, the dash is on a shelf, the drivers door is on another shelf, and the fender tag and build sheet are in a filing cabinet.  If the car were to go missing the authorities wouldn't be much help because the VIN isn't on it. yea there is still the sequence number on the cowl and rad support but not a whole vin.

[familymopar]

I think things are starting to come together.

Let me say first to Typars (and Scott aka BluesCuda) that I don't think anyone here has meant any offense or is wearing tin foil hats.  We got a bare bones story to start with and were left with little more, although Scott has chimed in with some useful photos and info.  People on this site seem to love a good mystery, and you gave us one.  In truth, what you presumably came here looking for is a large network of charger lovers to keep an eye out for this tag, that I can assure you is being done by all posters and likely many more, all over the states, and maybe the world.  While there has been some speculation by some, I don't think anyone thinks Typars did anything wrong, I certainly don't.  And I think everyone really does want to help.  I certainly do.

So this is where it is at as far as I can tell.  Typars believed that the vin, title, and fender tag were sold in an "envelope sale" on ebay:

I am the owner of a true 1968 Hemi 4 speed Charger. Several years ago the VIN, fender tag , and title were sold on eBay by someone doing something they should not have done.

This info and associated pics came to Typars by way of 6bblgt:

At that time, Typars had no idea documentation existed.  6bblgt provided some pics of the documentation that he had on file in a response to the Moparts thread I posted.  Again...no idea documentation existed up until 6bblgt spoke up just recently.   

6bblgt says the ebay pics also included a pic of the trunk rail number, which would be odd if one were only buying the docs:

The "eBay" pics of the fender & VIN tags also showed a pic of the trunk rail number. 

But Moparpoolman, or his friend, has copies of the same pics from a 2003 or so ebay ad that included the docs and the car:

at that time the ad was for the Car and VIN tags all together as a package with a title but the tags were displayed off the car laying on top of the title.  The pics that are posted in this thread are from that ebay ad that was for the car, title and tags together.  So there was no wrong doing unless there was a second ebay auction later in time selling only the tags.

And we have no reason to think there was a later ebay ad, except that 6bblgt thinks that the ad may have been newer and the time stamps are incorrect.  But if there was a later ad it used the same photos.  And 6bblgt says it is possible that someone just sent him these pics later in time:

& if the eBay auction was 2003 - someone may have sent me some of the tags/title/trunk rail pics around '09.

Based on all this, I think for now it is a safe place to start by believing there was a single ebay ad.  That ad happened sometime around 2003.  It used these photos we now see and it was for the car and the docs.  There was no envelope sale associated with those photos on ebay (although it is possible that someone purchased the package on ebay, was mailed the docs, and never retrieved the car?).

So the ebay ad happened around 2003.  Typars, we now know, bought the car in 2008:

I found a picture of the car that I snapped in 2008 right after Typars purchased it and stored it at a friends place while he made room in his shed.

This only leaves a 5 year window.  Typars has no history of the car between the 80's and 2008, but most of that time does not matter.  Aparently the car and docs were together in 2003 on ebay. 

Blues Cuda says the car was rediscovered by someone he trusts and it was very close in time to when Typars bought it:

What 'IS' known is the fact a mutual friend 'pulled' the car from the repair shop when they obtained it... Typars purchased it not long after it was obtained by the mutual friend.

The below statement seems to no longer be the case, according to Moparpoolman: (EDIT: actually I guess this is true, but the tags and car were together)

for it is now known somebody advertised it on whatever website +/- 10 years ago with the documentation already removed.

So in 2003 the car and tags are listed together.  Sometime shortly before 2008, Blues Cuda's trusted mopar friends rediscover the car behind a shop, pull it out, and sell it to Typars.  (I'm not getting in to the semantics of it being "pulled out", I very well may have said that the exact same way and reading anything into it is digging a bit for something not there).

I would say the place to start looking for those docs is the shop the car was pulled out from behind.  If they do not have them then I would ask them where and when they got the car.  If it was after 2003, and the bought it on ebay, then they should have the docs.  If it was before 2003 then the ebay ad should have been theirs.

There may be no clone car at all.  This stuff may have been pulled off for safe keeping while the car was out back in a field, and they were just forgotten about and not given over at some point.

This does not explain an experts unwillingness to discuss the car:

Another thing leading me to believe that someone has cloned it is a certain so called expert refuses to talk about the car. Go figure.

But as we all know these experts will not discuss the results/veracity of ANY car.  That info, according to them, is the property of the person paying the expert and is held confidentially and only the client can reveal findings.  So maybe that unnamed expert was simply saying "I don't discuss clients cars", i.e. I don't know if that is a client's car or not, but I need not waste my time looking for you because if it is I will not tell you anything about it.

My bet is that the shop has it.  Or had it, if it is no longer around.

EDIT: for grammar and spelling

[typars]

Shop is a dead end. Seems it might have belonged to a former employ, No one at the shop seems to recall.

[Cncguy]

Get a list of employees and start making calls

[familymopar]

Shop is a dead end. Seems it might have belonged to a former employ, No one at the shop seems to recall.

The car may have belonged to a former employee?  Who sold your friends (the local mopar people) the car?  The shop or the former employee?  if that was only in 08 and this was not their first time doing this, certainly they have a bill of sale on the car.  The could lead you to the previous owner.

That is your best lead.  I don't think the tags were sold separately on ebay.  So in 03/04 they were together.  Then you are there in 08.  The answer is in that shop or the former employee.  He may not even realize/remember he has it.

[TUFCAT]

In truth, what you presumably came here looking for is a large network of charger lovers to keep an eye out for this tag, that I can assure you is being done by all posters and likely many more, all over the states, and maybe the world.  

Someone's gonna get "noticed" if a Black 68 Hemi Charger with gold interior ever crosses my path.  

[Dreamcar]

I'm starting to think the documents for the car are not that far away from where the car sits now.

[familymopar]

In truth, what you presumably came here looking for is a large network of charger lovers to keep an eye out for this tag, that I can assure you is being done by all posters and likely many more, all over the states, and maybe the world. 

Someone's gonna get "noticed" if a Black 68 Hemi Charger with gold interior ever crosses my path. 

That, I think, was Typar's goal in coming here.  And like I said, there is no doubt that anyone around here would immediately have their suspicion raised by seeing a car like that.

I'm starting to think the documents for the car are not that far away from where the car sits now.

I agree.  I don't think they were intentionally separated.  A previous owner has them.  Either the shop, or the employee of the shop, or the owner before that.  But there can't be too many as it is not that big of a time window and the car seems t have a habit of sitting for  awhile wherever it goes.

I guess I had assumed this had been done, but the very first thing to do at this point, since we have reason to believe there was no envelope sale, is to go down to the Missouri DMV and do a title search on the vin.  I do it all the time and it's no big deal.  If nothing turns up there do the same thing for N. Carolina.  The former employee of the shop may have transferred the title to himself.  And even if he didn't, Typars needs to know who the last person to title the car was and when it was done.

[hemi-hampton]

I think it should be displayed with the vintage Dick Landy found race car Charger.  LEON.

[typars]

A lawyer friend of a friend is looking into both states right now. I can say that the last person that had tags for the car ( this body ) was the employee of the body shop. He drove and street raced the car for several years before turning it into a race car.

[68X426]

I don't remember him saying the buyer of the VIN is a crook.

He called in his friend with the FBI. 

Actions speak louder than words.

There's no conspiracy here, or chest pumping, or inflated ego in this story and all the responses.  It is now, has been, and still remains, all about the money.

And that's still ok. 

[familymopar]

A lawyer friend of a friend is looking into both states right now. I can say that the last person that had tags for the car ( this body ) was the employee of the body shop. He drove and street raced the car for several years before turning it into a race car.

This is why everyone has been asking for more info.

If the employee of the shop had it registered in MO then he had the title in MO.  If he is the guy that sold the car to your mopar friend in 08 (who quickly transferred it to you), then there is little left for mystery, he has the title.

Now, if he left the job, and left the car there taking the docs with him and the shop sold the car title-less to your mopar friend, there may be some trouble.

This seems beyond simple enough at this point.

1) You need to run a title check in MO, that your lawyer friend is apparently doing (it literally takes 5 minutes);

2) You need to get the bill of sale from your mopar friend who passed the car to you and verify it is his name on the bill of sale.

If he had it tagged, registered and on the road, he has the title.

Now the 2009 stuff gets interesting.  If 6bblgt's hunch is right about the reappearance of the same photos on ebay in 2009, maybe employee realized car was gone and sold tags (if shop sold it) or realized he had them and sold them (if he sold it).  Either way, that guy's name, which should literally be simple to find now, is your key.

Wait, when was it last registered and on the road?  The car looks like a lot of car for the "I found a hemi racer in a field" but does not look like a car that has seen the road in any reasonably recent past.

How do you know the last tags were the employee of the body shop?  What is the date of last registration?

[typars]

According to the relative of the body shop employ ( the one that has given me all the Original sheet metal and seats ) the car never had headlights or bumpers on it and the interior was completely gutted. it looked a lot back then as it dose now.

[typars]

This should have been late 70s or early 80s. He bought the car off a used car lot around 1975.

[familymopar]

According to the relative of the body shop employ ( the one that has given me all the Original sheet metal and seats ) the car never had headlights or bumpers on it and the interior was completely gutted. it looked a lot back then as it dose now.

This should have been late 70s or early 80s. He bought the car off a used car lot around 1975.

Ahh, well that makes sense.

And let me say, this info keeps trickling out from you that is very helpful.

SO... you know who the relative of the body shop employee is?  Which means you already know his name.  And can find him easy enough.  But no one there recalls the car?  Including the relative?  If it was tagged by him ever we know he had the title.  Get the bill of sale from your middleman (the mopar family people) and you are on your way.

Either employee has the title and tags or he sold them.  But he is your key.

And the employee's relative is the one that gave you the sheet metal?  Which means that he is this guy?

iv been unable to fill in some of  the blanks of the Chargers life. Have talked with several people that had lots to do with the car back in the 70s and 80s and even came up a person that has all the original sheet metal that was removed to make it a race car. But from the 90s till now is a mystery. 

And they have had it since at least 75

He bought the car off a used car lot around 1975.

Sounds like the mystery of where it was and what it was doing between 75 and now is pretty well figured too.