Air Extractors - it's a done deal for me - listen to this

[odcics2]

"Exhausters"  =   3% drag reduction.   

That's what it says on the John Pointer authored vintage documentation. 

From NASA to NASCAR,  Chrysler Wing Car Development Interviews, Hot Rod Magazine, June 29, 2005

Hot Rod asking Gary Romberg about is they tested full size Daytona.   I am assuming Gary's reply is prior to the car going into production.

Q: Did you guys ever make and test a full scale G-Series wing car mock up?
A: No, it only got as far as those 3/8 scale models we had in the Wichita State facility

"G" Series are the 1971 cars.   

[odcics2]

Dented inner hood structure at the 200 mph run. (yellow arrow)
There was one bump at Talladega where it would rub.
The car ran with 5" of oil pan to track clearance. (static set up)
The hood inner is the lowest part, being almost twice as low
compared to the fender bracing next to it.

For the record, this shot was 1 year after the birth of the Daytona.    When the Daytona was already for production, Talladega Superspeedway was not even finished to know what "bumps" they would discover.     Also,  Greg,   I have the rear window plug, rear window and the 4 piece rear window straps out of the #99 Glotzbach Daytona.   I don't know what all you got with the car but if you need 100% original Nichels parts to copy just let me know.  Also, how the plug and trim clips were installed were different than the production cars.  I'm certain you know this stuff but just incase..

DC-93 was tested at Talladega in late August, 69. That's where they came up with the chassis set up to give to the teams.
Keep in mind that the origin of DC-93 (later known as the 88) was the Charger 500 that was loaned to Hot rod, stolen, stripped and recovered, so it was a street 500.  A lot of the race 500s were updated from 68s.  When the 'new' additions on DC-93 were proven out, these were incorporated into newly built 500s. Things like the 1.5 degree body to chassis tilt, the "PITA" bars underhood, the steering gear attached to the cross member...
Existing cars could be retrofitted to some degree.   I'd assume the 1.5 degree tilt would not be a retrofit!! Way too much involved!

So, the Engineering car would have a different manner of rear trim attachment, IMO. I did get the original rear window from Don White.  The witness marks are still on it from the tape used to wrap the straps.   Check out the photo below   

I'd be interested in trading pics with you so you can see how this car was assembled and I can see how the 99 was constructed!     

Most of those could have been converted to Daytonas in August 69.   

[C5X DAYTONA]

"Exhausters"  =   3% drag reduction.   

That's what it says on the John Pointer authored vintage documentation. 

From NASA to NASCAR,  Chrysler Wing Car Development Interviews, Hot Rod Magazine, June 29, 2005

Hot Rod asking Gary Romberg about is they tested full size Daytona.   I am assuming Gary's reply is prior to the car going into production.

Q: Did you guys ever make and test a full scale G-Series wing car mock up?
A: No, it only got as far as those 3/8 scale models we had in the Wichita State facility

"G" Series are the 1971 cars.   

Egg on my face on that post..   

[C5X DAYTONA]

Dented inner hood structure at the 200 mph run. (yellow arrow)
There was one bump at Talladega where it would rub.
The car ran with 5" of oil pan to track clearance. (static set up)
The hood inner is the lowest part, being almost twice as low
compared to the fender bracing next to it.

For the record, this shot was 1 year after the birth of the Daytona.    When the Daytona was already for production, Talladega Superspeedway was not even finished to know what "bumps" they would discover.     Also,  Greg,   I have the rear window plug, rear window and the 4 piece rear window straps out of the #99 Glotzbach Daytona.   I don't know what all you got with the car but if you need 100% original Nichels parts to copy just let me know.  Also, how the plug and trim clips were installed were different than the production cars.  I'm certain you know this stuff but just incase..

DC-93 was tested at Talladega in late August, 69. That's where they came up with the chassis set up to give to the teams.
Keep in mind that the origin of DC-93 (later known as the 88) was the Charger 500 that was loaned to Hot rod, stolen, stripped and recovered, so it was a street 500.  A lot of the race 500s were updated from 68s.  When the 'new' additions on DC-93 were proven out, these were incorporated into newly built 500s. Things like the 1.5 degree body to chassis tilt, the "PITA" bars underhood, the steering gear attached to the cross member...
Existing cars could be retrofitted to some degree.   I'd assume the 1.5 degree tilt would not be a retrofit!! Way too much involved!

So, the Engineering car would have a different manner of rear trim attachment, IMO. I did get the original rear window from Don White.  The witness marks are still on it from the tape used to wrap the straps.   Check out the photo below   

I'd be interested in trading pics with you so you can see how this car was assembled and I can see how the 99 was constructed!     

Most of those could have been converted to Daytonas in August 69.   

Ah, so your plug would of also been leaded to the car.    Mine is gas welded on the sides in spots then some type of body filler.   

That is the same pattern on the plexi as mine in your photo.    My straps are in great shape and it looks to be some type of electrical tape.      The rear window trim clips are riveted and it has thick foam between the glass and the plug.    I will get some shots up tonight.

[Daytona Guy]

Yes, I said I listened to it. The question I would ask him, and what no one seems to have an answer for this the exhauster used on the test mule. He said their are no aero purpose for them, yet the facts go against his "statement". They says 3% - and they are aero designed with no purpose of tire clearance on the test mule.

Then, he said that he wanted to make sure the street car was the same and the fender scoops "covered up the holes that were for tire clearance". If this is true, the original holes as designed were for tire clearance on the track?? those little holes? I can do some calculations on surface area for that hole relative to a tire - moving left and right a degree or two and how close what would come to that hole's edge. The way he is talking it seems as if he does not know what he is talking about. I know that sounds presumptuous, but those holes, if they were for tire clearance, I would rather my tire hit a smooth surface than coming near a sharp edge. He was not talking about the hole getting bigger, but being exactly the same - race car to street car. Next, he got there in the spring of 69 he says - so there were more aero guys than him? That makes him the newbie at the time. His credentials are amazing.  

If what he is saying is true (and I believe he is not covering anything up), he has at least some questions to answer that do not add up. Don't worry, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but did I see black helicopters in the back on the test track


upload an image

I don't know the answer to why the slow speed mule had the exhausters.     Would be a good question but it's still after how it came to be.   There is no doubt it's an exhauster.   I understand Gary says it for tire clearance only but George has said many times that they didn't care what Pointer did.  Just so it didn't mess up the aero.     So I take it as they really didn't care, just so he made room with no negative affect.  

The 3% paperwork is odd.   3% is HUGE.     I can't find any test date, test data or even a test number on that issue.   There is absolutely nothing prior to production that I have seen.  Everything else and with multiple designs but ZERO on the extractor.  All the wind tunnel test were done on the 3/8 car prior to production as I understand it.  The fender tops have never been modified on that 3/8s car.  So I just have no idea where the 3% is coming from.

On how small the street hole is.  They knew they could make the hole huge on the race car.   They just didn't know if the production car had to have it.  So they just made a hole.  No science to why the hole is that size.  Just wanted a hole to show the street car had it to avoid a problem to make the body legal to race.    

When Doug S. has them come to the meets, it's lets just say...magical....     Absolutely a fantastic group of car guys.  Very approachable.

There were tests, the mule, I'm not sure why this is a mystery that is overlooked  - They did do testing with exhauster - that's all they did for that time with the low speed 120mph car. They apparently did these tests night and day. The 3/8 scale did not have exhausters - most likely was added after. I do not see how the 3/8 not having exhauster proves or disproves anything. There was no wholes on the top of those fenders for tire clearance either - that seemed to have been on their radar - who dropped the ball? Why test this 3/8 car when they did not have a solution for the tire clearance that seems to have been their ONLY concern for 1 full year that if they added it could not have adverse affects to aero? If they were warned not to effect that aero of the car by adding the holes and the fender scoops, why did the 3/8 test not have fender scoops to show there is no  interference? IOW, why test the 3/8 car without addressing the concern that they say they had from the start?? Again, another inconsistency and a dropping of the ball. The first time we see anything is in Feb-March - 2 to 3 months after the drawing - that is moving pretty fast. Does anyone have the dates for the 3/8 scale testing?

3% is not that huge at all for what it says. I have no reason to believe that this document is not authentic. Do we have any documentation that says anything about tire clearance for this particular car? No. These numbers of the low speed test mule (120mph) by engineers that are number crunchers, are not effected by actual speeds once they establish a baseline, after that it is physics, and variable dynamics, and calculations. As I have stated, all one has to do is determine CFM - out of both exhausters at variable speeds that seemed to gain 1.5% each. Understanding that this air is not going out the bottom of the car is not difficult to ascertain or calculate the advantage or percentage. I have seen my exhauster in action - rain pours out them - and at high speeds - wanting to see the effects in the real world - is amazing the air flow. It is hard to appreciate something you can't see (AIR).

Is there a list of aero engineers for this car? I can't see their being only one, especially when Gary Romberg said he came in the spring after this Daytona project was already off the ground. 

[tan top]

 found this picture , # 7 Daytona ,  I had saved on disc ,  think I saved the pictures from here originally !!

  no fender side edge ( or very little just to keep the shape maybe ) below the scoop ,

[Aero426]

found this picture , # 7 Daytona ,  I had saved on disc ,  think I saved the pictures from here originally !!

  no fender side edge ( or very little just to keep the shape maybe ) below the scoop ,

No factory edge, but there is a piece of round stock tacked to the inside of the fender to hold shape and give it strength.   

[Daytona Guy]

Now that picture would be consistent with a tire coming close. 

[Patronus]

I would imagine the spinning tire, different points of air infiltration, excessive speed, etc would necessitate the need to vent at the largest (by volume) area available on the front of the car..ie: the inner fenders. There is no way that hole was designed...and cut.. to fit even part of something as important as the tire while racing. Your doing 200mph and you're going to come even close to any bodywork?! I don't think so...Ask any racer, those vents settled down the front of the car through the venting of atmosphere.

[TUFCAT]

There is no way that hole was designed...and cut.. to fit even part of something as important as the tire while racing. Your doing 200mph and you're going to come even close to any bodywork?!  I don't think so

I'm starting to buy into that theory.  If it's that frighten close, then you got a problem! I'm not sure whether the hole was large enough (in my totally uneducated experience) for me to become warm and fuzzy with the tire clearance idea.  Removing the top of the fender, now were getting somewhere.     I suppose it could be up to each team to cut holes any size or shape they wanted?  Once again, I don't know how much wiggle room Nascar would allow on this.