Ignition switch help after switch swap not done by me please guys...

[K9COP]

HI guys, I have my car back after paint (1 year!!). 1970 Dodge Charger 440 4 speed with '69 front clip and electronic 'orange box' ignition.

The painter said he never managed to start my car, so it has been pushed around his shop. (It was also good enough to dump all it's power steering fluid the day after it arrived there....

Full disclosure: the car was completely rewired, BY ME, but was used and driven without problems before paint. I drove it to the paint shop...

Subject of the thread:

The starting problem was diagnosed as a bad ignition switch. It would sometimes fire just as the key was released from 'crank position'.

New switch gives the following outputs when tested for continuity:

Red wire on switch to Red wire on new harness= constant power.

Blue wire on switch to Pink wire on new harness (which goes to one side of the ballast resister, ) 'run' voltage (pos II on key) only. - This is twinned with terminal #1 on elec Ignition ECU.

Black wire on switch to Brown wire on new harness (accessories) = 'run' voltage only.

Brown wire on switch to Orange wire on new harness (to fuse box for wipers, brake lights, elec choke etc) 'crank' position voltage only.

Yellow wire on switch to Purple wire on new harness (straight to starter relay) 'crank' voltage only.

Problems:

1) Mechanic had to run additional wire from brown on Ignition switch to  other side of ballast resistor for cranking coil voltage, to get car to start. (Joined to pre-existing separate piece of pink wire (marked 'coil' in the harness kit) for the coil +ve feed). This was NOT like this before. Ballast resistor only had pink wire from ignition switch to one terminal, joined to #1 terminal ECU wire, and single pink from other side to coil +ve.

2) No brake lights!! Given that the supply to the fuses is only supplied (via new Orange wire) in the cranking position of the ignition switch, those fuses have no 'run' voltage. Meter reading at fuses gives 6.7V- wipers work but slow. Applying 12V to Orange wire (I bridged across to the Pink wire on the new harness) gives fast wipers but still no brake lights.

Old switch when tested for continuity gives the same results...

I'm really confused. Car was functioning perfectly after the rewire, and none of these problems, or need for adaptions, were required.

I could swap the Pink and Orange round, which would give run voltage to the Orange, and crank voltage to the Pink, but then I'd have no 'run' voltage to the coil after the car had started and crank voltage ceased.

Sorry for long thread, but I'm out of ideas!!

Help please!!!

Looks nice though....

[Pete in NH]

I kind of got lost in your description but, it sounds like the start/run issue is the classic open ballast resistor thing. Of course that may not be it, there could also be an open wire between the ignition switch and the ballast resistor. If you have a meter with a resistance position, disconnect both ends of the ballast resistor and measure across the two pins, it should be 1 ohm on an orange box system.

The brown wire to orange wire "crank position" only feeding the wipers and brake lights doesn't sound right, you want that connection to have power in the run position only. Having it powered in the crank position could be pulling down the ignition circuit voltage through the ballast resistor.

[K9COP]

Hey Pete, thanks for getting back to me. I bet you thought you were through with debugging my car, right?  

So basically I see the issue as this. My Orange wire, (Brown out of the switch) needs run voltage but only has crank.

My Pink wire (Blue out of the switch) only has run but needs crank voltage.

If I swap these, I'll have run voltage to the fuse box (correct), and crank voltage to one side of the ballast resistor, which is then twinned off to coil +ve, also correct. What I won't have is run voltage to coil +ve.

Here's how the resistor was before the rewire:



Note, two wires on right hand terminal in shot..

And here it is how it was before the switch was changed but after the rewire:



The difference being that there is only one wire on the right hand (as you look at it from the front) terminal of the ballast resistor, which goes straight to the coil +ve.

NOW, after the switch change, the car has one extra wire direct from brown on the ignition switch, out through the firewall,  to the right hand ballast resistor terminal.

[Pete in NH]

I'm not sure I understand the extra brown wire added after the ignition switch change. We need to get back to some basics here. Do you have a factory service manual for 1970 Dodges or factory wiring diagrams for 1970 Chargers. If not I can send you wiring diagrams. Also, do you have the original instruction booklet that came with the Orange Box system? Again, if not I can send you a copy. We need to get the wiring back to the original circuit paths.

[K9COP]

Pete, thanks for the, as usual, generous offers of help. I have a 1970 wiring diagram, but no service manual, and no info on the orange box system. That was on the car when I got it, and I'm learning little by little. It appears you can teach an old dog new tricks, and old dog handler? Not so much.... 
I'd appreciate any lierature you have please.

After the switch replacement, there was no 'crank' voltage to the resistor, and hence, no crank voltage to the +ve terminal on the coil, only 'run' voltage. My guy, who I'd put under time pressure so I could use the car, added the red wire to the resistor, from the brown switch wire, to bring the un-resisted 12V cranking voltage up to the +ve coil terminal to complete starting.

There are some differences in the outputs of the new switch according to wire colours, compared to the old switch. I tried numerous resistors.

I am re-wiring the connections as follows:

Car (switch):     New harness:

Red to             Red for constant 12V

Brown to          Pink for crank voltage to resistor terminal then piggy back out to coil +ve terminal.

Blue to             Brown for 'run' voltage to accessories.

Black to            Orange for run voltage to fusebox for wipers, brake lights, elec. choke etc.

Yellow to           Purple for crank voltage to starter relay.

I will then re-use the new, additional, red wire to carry run voltage from the Blue wire to the other terminal on the resistor piggy backed to #1 terminal on the ignition ECU/Orange box.

The diagrams, and the pictures of my car before the rewire, show two wires to each terminal on the resistor. Brown from the switch and dark blue out to the coil on one side, and dark blue trace the other, with the addition of the wire to feed terminal #1 on the Orange box. So the above correction will address the issues I have now, hopefully. I can only deduce that my car started before by picking up run voltage to the coil as I released the key from 'crank' to 'run' and it was just spinning enough to fire.

Thoughts please Pete/guys?

K9

[Pete in NH]

70 was the first year for the ignition switch in the steering column, so there is a wiring harness near the bottom of the column with all the ignition switch connections. My way to approach this problem would be to trace all 8 of these wires and make sure they go to the right places. You should be able to use your wiring diagram to do this. Let me know if you need help in figuring out what to do.

[b5blue]

  I'm a bit lost but will chime in. I had a new switch that I installed and with in a month it failed to crank the engine over. Ignition worked just not starter? When replaced it I tested function out of the column and it worked, my guess is ether my key switch or the part are off just enough to not reach the starter engage inside the switch.
  For a 70 up I found it useful to have an extra switch. Being able to unplug the column mounted switch and just plug in a loose new one under the dash for testing is handy to have. I recommend dropping 35 bucks for a new one and using as a test mule for trouble shooting. It eliminates second guessing column installed switch function.
  Just a suggestion. 

[K9COP]

Thanks Neal. Sorry, in my efforts to try and make my explanation and colour identification clearer, I may have made it more confusing...

I guess my definitive question is, what should the outputs of the various wires of the switch, Red, Blue, Black, Brown, Yellow be in various key positions, including start position?

If none of the wires have a crankand and run voltage, then I need to run an extra wire to the resistor to feed the coil in one of those positions.

Thanks,

K9

[b5blue]

It's not your post, I'm deep into bumper/grille replacement now.
key buzz-q13a-18r
key buzz-q13-18r
indicator lamp-e2e-18o
b-1------j1-12r (from/to main splice)
ign. 2----j3-14br
ign. 1----j2-16dbl*
acc.------q2-12bk
starter ---s2-18y
so ign. 2 and starter would crank and ign. 1 run. (The last # is size and color of wire.)