Strange stuff going on - front suspension

[andben]

I got a '70 Charger with a 496 Hemi. I got some problems with my front suspension.

Suddenly my charger is VERY high and doesnt go down to normal level (wheels leaning in, slanted in-outwards). And suddenly it's very low so the wheels leaning outwards.

I get crazy about this and I have tried small adjustments to the height and switched tires, with spacers and without spacers.

It work for like an hour or driving, I stopm turning and accelerate and suddenly I hear tires howling and they are slanted in/outwards again.

I will get the car in jack stands and starting to remove tires, brakes, steering and stuff. I need to get to the buttom with this in the winter.

What to do?

[MSRacing89]

Sounds like you might be making adjustments to the car on a binding surface.  Even a garage floor will make it tough to set ride heights and toe.  Its a good idea to do this adjustments with turn plates or even a garbage bag under the tires will do.  Roll the car back and forth after each adjustment and re-check until it does not move anymore. 

[HPP]

Check the rear torsion bar anchors very carefully for cracks. Inspect the upper and lower control arm bushings

[Ghoste]

And I don't know that I would wait until winter to get to the bottom of it.  You might want to get at it right now because you could have something dangerous going on there.

[RallyeMike]

I got a '70 Charger with a 496 Hemi. I got some problems with my front suspension.

Suddenly my charger is VERY high and doesnt go down to normal level (wheels leaning in, slanted in-outwards). And suddenly it's very low so the wheels leaning outwards.

If you switch to a 318 and 10" drum brakes the problem will go away.

[andben]

If you switch to a 318 and 10" drum brakes the problem will go away.

Why? The car came with 440 and front disc brakes. Meaningless answers.

[Mike DC]

 
I agree, it sounds like you may be adjusting things with the tires laterally binding against the ground and screwing up the process.


It can help to manually bounce the front end of the car up & down a few times by hand before you start making changes.  



Another (unusual) possibility would be if the front shocks are somehow binding/sticking.  That could prevent the front suspension from cycling naturally. 

[andben]

I agree, it sounds like you may be adjusting things with the tires laterally binding against the ground and screwing up the process.
It can help to manually bounce the front end of the car up & down a few times by hand before you start making changes.  
Another (unusual) possibility would be if the front shocks are somehow binding/sticking.  That could prevent the front suspension from cycling naturally. 

Good idea, i will check the shocks as well or just swap them to new ones. I also got Unisteer stuff installed so maybe it's that as well?

[HPP]

IMO, if the alignment is changing after an hour of driving, or it changes angles between rolling the car forward or backwards, you do not have just a binding problem. If these angles change enough for you to actually notice them, then you have a much bigger problem with something being loose or broken.

The tire/spindle is held in place by the triangulation of the upper and lower control arms, strut rod, and steering linkage. Any significant movement at the tire would translate into some very minor movement at any of these joints. So you are looking for a defect that is most likely .125 or even less.

My assumption with this is this must be  at least a 3-5* change in tire angle for you to notice. Anything less than that you probably wouldn't see until the tire was wear odd or hear it when it was squealing against the pavement. Anything greater and you have a serious issue.

You didn't mention when the Unisteer was installed so I'll assume its been in for a bit. Any install of the Unisteer would not impact the control arms, but if anything in it fails, it could contribute to or be the problem. similarly, not knowing the age of your bushings, they could be suspects as well.

[375instroke]

You probably just have the toe way off, and that's causing the tires to either pull apart, or inward, and that can cause huge changes in the camber.  I had this happen to me when I first got my Charger and moved the caster positive.  That changed the toe, and when I moved the car back and forth to settle things in before adjusting that, the camber moved way out.

[MSRacing89]

You probably just have the toe way off, and that's causing the tires to either pull apart, or inward, and that can cause huge changes in the camber.  I had this happen to me when I first got my Charger and moved the caster positive.  That changed the tie, and when I moved the car back and forth to settle things in before adjusting that, the camber moved way out.

Also remember these cars have massive bumpsteer issues.  So you are compounding the toe issue with any change in ride height.  Even if the car settles a bit after you set the toe, you could see a significant change. 

[CairnsGeneral]

Gday from Australia. andben im glad to have found your post. Rest assured you are not alone with this problem, I have exactly the same problem with my 68. 
Have you managed to find the cause ? I havnt had the time to get stuck into mine because it will involve a complete front end tear down, however Im very confident it is caused by failed control arm bushings or ball studs or a combination.

This will sound familiar to you. At some stage while driving along, you car would have started to raise at the front, front wheels excessive positive camber as well as toeing in real bad causing the tyres to screech. This is something that just starts happening all of a sudden. When you pull up, the car looks like a 70's gasser at the front and wheels looking rather uncomfortable. If you let the car roll backwards or push it backwards, the front settles back down and wheels turn back into place. I agree with HPP, something significant has failed, to allow for such awkward and excessive missalignment of the front geometry. Ive checked all my tie rod ends, wheel bearings and steering components, and it aint coming from there.

Let me know if you have found the cause since this thread began, id be very interested to know  . Im still a few weeks away from having the time to strip mine down, but i'll be sure to post the cause of this phenomenon as soon as I find it !!

[fy469rtse]

Could also be a failed or stripped thread to camber bolts in your top arm,
had one of mine fail , and altered wheel alignment on its own , and while not as bad as your discribing very similar ,
are pivots to bottom arm's, torsion bar point ,check there not some how binding in there,

[Kern Dog]

If you switch to a 318 and 10" drum brakes the problem will go away.

Why? The car came with 440 and front disc brakes. Meaningless answers.

Lighten up, dude.  NOBODY is being paid here to solve YOUR problem. This is a volunteer forum. Either you are blindly frustrated or you have no sense of humor. Maybe you do not understand steering and suspension terminology. Wheels leaning in?  Slanted in-outwards? People in the "know" refer to that as positive camber and toe-in.
I read that you have a "Unisteer" unit.  A few minutes of research on that product would have been time well spent. These units have a terrible reputation for having worse bumpsteer than stock and a wider turning radius. Even so, I suspect worn lower control arm bushings OR the LCA pins have "egged out" their mounts in the K member.

[MoParJW]

I had a similar problem, in my case it was caused by bad lower control arm bushings.

[Troy]

Geez, I think some people have no imagination or sense of humor...

If you read the original post the right way it's easy to imagine that a 496 Hemi under acceleration will lift the nose (causing the wheels to unload and tilt) and then drop it suddenly when the power comes off. Same with turning then accelerating abruptly. This problem generally goes away with a 318. I was reasonably sure (as RallyeMike appears to have been) that this was a joke.

If not, try responding to the people who are actually trying to help. A picture or two would be awesome.

Troy

[Dino]

If you switch to a 318 and 10" drum brakes the problem will go away.

Why? The car came with 440 and front disc brakes. Meaningless answers.

Lighten up, dude.  NOBODY is being paid here to solve YOUR problem..

Awwww maaaan!  And here I thought you guys were going to put me through college.   

[don duick]

I also have the same problem and lately it has been getting worse. I have replaced everything except the lower control arm bushes so I am convinced that is the cause. I will be replacing them within the next 2 weeks and will advise of results. my other charger has new lower bushes and does not have this problem

[Kern Dog]

They are called "bushings". Bushes are like a tree, only smaller. They are found growing from the earth.   

[don duick]

 

They are called "bushings". Bushes are like a tree, only smaller. They are found growing from the earth.  

thanks kerndog

[andben]

Lighten up, dude.  NOBODY is being paid here to solve YOUR problem. This is a volunteer forum. Either you are blindly frustrated or you have no sense of humor. Maybe you do not understand steering and suspension terminology. Wheels leaning in?  Slanted in-outwards? People in the "know" refer to that as positive camber and toe-in.
I read that you have a "Unisteer" unit.  A few minutes of research on that product would have been time well spent. These units have a terrible reputation for having worse bumpsteer than stock and a wider turning radius. Even so, I suspect worn lower control arm bushings OR the LCA pins have "egged out" their mounts in the K member.

Ohh, Im just swedish and that was a typical swedish-jealously answer.. so english is, demonstrably, my second language. I apologize.

[HPP]

Which again highlights that a little latitude in the terms, procedures, and questions can go a long way to understanding. I think sometimes a lot of us forget that this is a global forum with members literally half a world away from our personal desk and its easy to jump on things some of us take as basics.

Yes, I wish everyone would purchase a Field Service Manual and consult it before hitting us with a question like what is the firing order of my 440, but alas, that doesn't happen so sometimes we have to address more basic questions as well as more complex situations, like this, that are extremely difficult to diagnose from a keyboard.

[Kern Dog]

Have you had any good luck in terms of progress?

[don duick]

OK Andben those who said it is the worn lower control arm bushings would be correct. I have the same problem and changed my bushings today and fixed the problem. My old ones were worn down to the metal and very sloppy.

[Mike DC]

If your LCA bushings were that wrecked then you really should check the LCA mounting tube in the K-frame itself.  They are known to metal-fatigue their way loose from the sidewalls of the K. 

[don duick]

If your LCA bushings were that wrecked then you really should check the LCA mounting tube in the K-frame itself.  They are known to metal-fatigue their way loose from the sidewalls of the K. 

yep I did that,  thanks for the advice.

[Tom Q]

Also remember these cars have massive bumpsteer issues.  So you are compounding the toe issue with any change in ride height.  Even if the car settles a bit after you set the toe, you could see a significant change.  
[/quote]  

What data do you have to prove this???  My real world experience proves otherwise. Try a 1970 Charger R/T that runs hot road course laps and eats SRT 8 challengers using .98 torsion bars and hemi leaf springs. No tricks just common sense that is not common anymore.  I would post a pic but I already have before.  Oh yeah and don't forget a former ride - 1970 AAR Cuda that would run 130 mph on the back straight and run 2.5 min laps.....massive bump steer...not.  Street cars not race cars btw.  Massive bump steer  

As usual bad advice on a thread.  1st place to examine is the lower control arm bushing and the pin where it goes thru the k frame.
Then examine the k frame to ensure the sleeve has not cracked in the k frame.  Next take the car to some one that understands these suspensions, not the internet.

[Kern Dog]

As usual, Tom Quad makes sense but uses a hammer to make his point.
Just a guess, but I figure that you don't make a living dealing directly with people, do you Tom?   

[TylerCharger69]

  Not saying this is the problem, but a buddy of mine has a 70 Charger. Originally a 318 car, now a 440. Alignments would not hold. He had the same symptoms. Come to find out, the "K" frame, where the lower control arms bolt to, were cracked and wallowed out really bad. It can be fixed, but he just replaced the "K" frame instead. It's hard to see unless the car is up on stands or in the air. If it needs to be repaired, "K" frame has to come off to fix it properly. 

[1974dodgecharger]

then what's the point of the internet then?  My bump steer happened when I used a wide rear tire and a narrower front, but if one was using same size front and rears the bump steer is not noticeable at all.  With my current setup 295s rears and 245s fronts yes the bump steer is very scary on the highway it makes you want to hit the car next to you.

So Tom where is your 1970 charger at so the person can test drive it so he/she can copy your setup?

[Tom Q]

don't like the hammer?? too bad. 
the bad advice/opinions given far exceeds and good advice/info.
people have computers and can't save anything
just look at the six pak  posts

[1974dodgecharger]

don't like the nail then don't hammer