total confusion is setting in

[Stegs]

I need you help

I have a oem carter carb on my charger, I just installed the firecore ignition from Ron, car runs better than it ever did


I have 2 issues and this is where I get confused. My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Most people including myself think its lean

Now, Ron said to set the timing at 15 degress and 36 degrees by 3000 rpm

I just got off the phone with the guy I bought the car from (big mopar guy) and he says I need 6-8 degrees with a factory distributer, and my bogging issue is b.c the timing is off by idle

now the car was acting up way before the new ignition (the new ignition helped out a lot) but im still dealing with a sluggish car from idle and a surge from 45 mph+

the car has been sitting for a while so im going to run a full can of carb cleaner thru it with 93 octane for the next 3 tanks of fuel (to hopefully clean out the carb)

When I got the car it ran great, but as I drove it, it developed these issues


My question is, is my timing from Ron way off (which I highly doubt, Ron is a genius) or am I overlooking something? Vac advance on the new distributer is not there....should I hook it up?

im assuming (as most of you are by reading this) the carb needs a rebuild....and has nothing to do with the new ignition .....

I don't seem to have any vac leaks, but will look more tonight.....

if this was your car...what would you do?...........im going to pour in carb cleaner in the tank for the next few tanks and see if that cleans up....but I plan on getting my carb rebuilt anyway (figure its been sitting since 1985, but what gets me is the car ran great when I bought it)

EDIT : just spoke with Ron literally 5 min after typing this, he is going to price out a new carb for me that will fit. while I wait for that, im going to run carb cleaner thru the tank (nothing to loose I guess) and maybe it will help......

Im sure Ill end up buying a new carb along the line sooner than I thought

[stripedelete]

A new gas tank will only run you a couple hundred bucks.

[firefighter3931]

Scott, before making any wholesale changes try replacing the fuel filter....it could be clogged up.  Who knows when it was last replaced ? 

The timing is right they way we have it set up and is not the problem....trust me 


Ron

[BSB67]

Now, Ron said to set the timing at 15 degress and 36 degrees by 3000 rpm

im assuming (as most of you are by reading this) the carb needs a rebuild....and has nothing to do with the new ignition .....

if this was your car...what would you do?...........

That initial timing is good as long as total timing is limited to 40 or less.

Yes.  The carb needs a rebuild.

I would rebuild the carb.

[Stegs]

I just did the fuel filter on Friday, brand new napa gold direct replacement

didn't help any, im thinking its time to order a new carb....this carter I have now has served its time and I don't want to be constantly chasing down a poor engine performance

[John_Kunkel]

My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Welcome to Carterland. Rebuild or replace.

[Stegs]

My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Welcome to Carterland. Rebuild or replace.

im hopping on the replace train .....Hello Holley

[68charger440]

My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Welcome to Carterland. Rebuild or replace.

im hopping on the replace train .....Hello Holley

As someone who recently spent a whole lot of time rebuilding and dialing in a used carb, I will say that you never know what has been done to the carb before you got it, so if you can afford it, buy a new one and then tune it from there.  At least you are a starting with a known good carb and not a warn out modified pos.  I finally got mine dialed in, but not without loosing way to many hours tweaking it.
Replace with new is a choice I wish I had made!

[BSB67]

My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Welcome to Carterland. Rebuild or replace.

im hopping on the replace train .....Hello Holley

As someone who recently spent a whole lot of time rebuilding and dialing in a used carb, I will say that you never know what has been done to the carb before you got it, so if you can afford it, buy a new one and then tune it from there.  At least you are a starting with a known good carb and not a warn out modified pos.  I finally got mine dialed in, but not without loosing way to many hours tweaking it.
Replace with new is a choice I wish I had made!

If you cannot, afraid to, or don't want to rebuild a carb, you might have picked the wrong hobby

[Stegs]

My issues are 1. car spits ands sputters leaving a stop light until I give it more gas (if I ease into it it bogs bad) 2. my car has a surge from 45 mph on up to about 60

Welcome to Carterland. Rebuild or replace.

im hopping on the replace train .....Hello Holley

As someone who recently spent a whole lot of time rebuilding and dialing in a used carb, I will say that you never know what has been done to the carb before you got it, so if you can afford it, buy a new one and then tune it from there.  At least you are a starting with a known good carb and not a warn out modified pos.  I finally got mine dialed in, but not without loosing way to many hours tweaking it.
Replace with new is a choice I wish I had made!

If you cannot, afraid to, or don't want to rebuild a carb, you might have picked the wrong hobby

I don't mind trying, but if I screw it up then im without a driveable car.....im slowly learning these older cars, Im a jeep guy, but those are pretty simple and ive owned a lot of them, so I understand them. These older cars are a learning curve....I will get it...but it will take time. But ill admit 100%, I don't do carbs....they are tricky, hard (for me) to understand....Id rather have someone who knows what they are doing rebuild it......but I think with this one...its going to be replaced.

[68charger440]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

[Stegs]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

my thoughts exactly 

[BSB67]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

Sure it is.  Probably 95% of all carters (especially carters) out there can be assessed by visual observation to be good or not.  Could some one have gone inside, buggered it up, put it back together and put it on you car....sure, it's possible.  Unlikely though.  And, a little observation, common sense and literature review, you could figure that out on your own if it was buggered-up, even if you never did one before.

I can honestly say that I have rebuilt and or tuned 100 carbs with unknown history or origin and never had one that was buggered up.  I have seen carbs that based on visual observation, I would not buy because I did not like what I saw.

Should everyone on the planet have the skill set to rebuild a carb....no way.  But if you choose to own a 45 year muscle car, and intend to work on it, then yes. I think you should be willing to learn through experience on how to do something as simple a rebuilding a carb.  All we ever had were daily drivers.  If you are that concerned and the car must run, by a couple carbs at a swap meet, buy a Carter Carb book, rip into one, learn how it works and you'll never fear your carb again.  What ever happened to the process of actually doing something and learning from it?

[fy469rtse]

again , wisdom, and great advice, practice teach your self new skills , lots of guys will pipe in when you get stuck , see it everyday on here to do with everything

[68charger440]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

Sure it is.  Probably 95% of all carters (especially carters) out there can be assessed by visual observation to be good or not.  Could some one have gone inside, buggered it up, put it back together and put it on you car....sure, it's possible.  Unlikely though.  And, a little observation, common sense and literature review, you could figure that out on your own if it was buggered-up, even if you never did one before.

I can honestly say that I have rebuilt and or tuned 100 carbs with unknown history or origin and never had one that was buggered up.  I have seen carbs that based on visual observation, I would not buy because I did not like what I saw.

Should everyone on the planet have the skill set to rebuild a carb....no way.  But if you choose to own a 45 year muscle car, and intend to work on it, then yes. I think you should be willing to learn through experience on how to do something as simple a rebuilding a carb.  All we ever had were daily drivers.  If you are that concerned and the car must run, by a couple carbs at a swap meet, a Carter Carb book rip into one, learn how it works and you'll never fear your carb again.  What ever happened to the process of actually doing something and learning from it?

I don't want to argue too much especially since I have also for the past 40 years always just rebuilt used carbs with pretty good luck too, but when you do run into one that has been messed with internally with drill bits in the air bleeds etc. It can be difficult to even spot let alone fix especially if they left metal shavings inside the restriçtors that you can't even see, and bent up linkages and such. Then the time you have to put into it to fix it is just not worth it.  I took my last one as a personal challenge, but I sure could have done a lot of other things with the time I spent on it.  It is nice when you finally get a really badly broken one fixed ,but its a fine line between persistent and stubborn, and we all have different lines for that.  I don't think there is a right answer, its just a matter of how much money and time you have and which is more valuable to you.

[ws23rt]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

Sure it is.  Probably 95% of all carters (especially carters) out there can be assessed by visual observation to be good or not.  Could some one have gone inside, buggered it up, put it back together and put it on you car....sure, it's possible.  Unlikely though.  And, a little observation, common sense and literature review, you could figure that out on your own if it was buggered-up, even if you never did one before.

I can honestly say that I have rebuilt and or tuned 100 carbs with unknown history or origin and never had one that was buggered up.  I have seen carbs that based on visual observation, I would not buy because I did not like what I saw.

Should everyone on the planet have the skill set to rebuild a carb....no way.  But if you choose to own a 45 year muscle car, and intend to work on it, then yes. I think you should be willing to learn through experience on how to do something as simple a rebuilding a carb.  All we ever had were daily drivers.  If you are that concerned and the car must run, by a couple carbs at a swap meet, a Carter Carb book rip into one, learn how it works and you'll never fear your carb again.  What ever happened to the process of actually doing something and learning from it?

 Thank you for saying this. And it applies for most of what it takes to keep these old cars running.
Maybe I'm just one of those that had to learn how to fix my car cause I was young and poor. But what I learned that applies here is all the systems are only complicated at a glance when it is the first time and understanding the science of how they work is not required.
A how to book with step by step instructions will get you through the rebuild as well as identify parts that are wrong or broken. It's all just nuts, bolts, gaskets, etc.

[BSB67]

Its not always a matter of skill.  I can make any carburetor totally unrebuildable, and that is the point.  You don't know what has been done before you got it, so rather than beat you head against a wall trying to figure out what was done and  how to correct it,  it is often easier and cheaper to replace rather than rebuild unless you can't get a replacement.  That is why most mechanics will replace rather than rebuild.

Sure it is.  Probably 95% of all carters (especially carters) out there can be assessed by visual observation to be good or not.  Could some one have gone inside, buggered it up, put it back together and put it on you car....sure, it's possible.  Unlikely though.  And, a little observation, common sense and literature review, you could figure that out on your own if it was buggered-up, even if you never did one before.

I can honestly say that I have rebuilt and or tuned 100 carbs with unknown history or origin and never had one that was buggered up.  I have seen carbs that based on visual observation, I would not buy because I did not like what I saw.

Should everyone on the planet have the skill set to rebuild a carb....no way.  But if you choose to own a 45 year muscle car, and intend to work on it, then yes. I think you should be willing to learn through experience on how to do something as simple a rebuilding a carb.  All we ever had were daily drivers.  If you are that concerned and the car must run, by a couple carbs at a swap meet, a Carter Carb book rip into one, learn how it works and you'll never fear your carb again.  What ever happened to the process of actually doing something and learning from it?

I don't want to argue too much especially since I have also for the past 40 years always just rebuilt used carbs with pretty good luck too, but when you do run into one that has been messed with internally with drill bits in the air bleeds etc. It can be difficult to even spot let alone fix especially if they left metal shavings inside the restriçtors that you can't even see, and bent up linkages and such. Then the time you have to put into it to fix it is just not worth it.  I took my last one as a personal challenge, but I sure could have done a lot of other things with the time I spent on it.  It is nice when you finally get a really badly broken one fixed ,but its a fine line between persistent and stubborn, and we all have different lines for that.  I don't think there is a right answer, its just a matter of how much money and time you have and which is more valuable to you.

So, is your advice based on your experience with a Carter AVS, or Holley?  

[68charger440]

My nightmare carb was a Holley 870 Street Avenger that I bought used.  On the surface it looked good on all of the pics from many different angles and it was nice and clean.  But once I got it and tore into it I kept finding more and more issues with it.  To tell the truth it was the only one in my entire life that gave me so many fits and the taste of the frustration is still fresh.

[BSB67]

My nightmare carb was a Holley 870 Street Avenger that I bought used.  On the surface it looked good on all of the pics from many different angles and it was nice and clean.  But once I got it and tore into it I kept finding more and more issues with it.  To tell the truth it was the only one in my entire life that gave me so many fits and the taste of the frustration is still fresh.

Exactly, a Holley.  Your experience is with a used Holley that you probably bought off the internet, verses a Carter that came on his stockish car.   I did struggle once with a pair of Mikuni carbs on a jet ski, but I did not think that was applicable.  Part of my point is that almost no one bothers screwing with the internals of a Carter carb.  They just pitch it, obviously from the advice of others, and buy Holley's, then all of the carb tuning geniuses come out.

Oh, buy the way, there is one on carb that I did actually have a problem with......A Holley Avenger 870.  It was on my neighbors Roush built 427 cobra.  It was a manufactures defect that effected a lot of Avenger carbs.  They said that they replaced a lot of 870s for their customers.  Simply not worth fixing he said. I asked if he wanted us to return the problem carb for warranty reasons with the manufacturer.  He said no, Holley and everyone is aware of the problem, and he just sent to us a new carb.  Where do you think all of those bad 870s went that did not go back to the supplier.    Guess what the problem was, metal shavings everywhere in the carb.  I did clean it up and it works fine.  Oh, and despite its size, that carb's idle circuit is calibrated to lean for any thing with a big overlap cam.

Wouldn't that be funny if your experience with the 870 was actually caused by a manufacturer defect, and now you are recommending to others to buy new.  

Finally, he stated that it actually did drive fine when he first got it. 

[68charger440]

Yeah I have a Carter completion 750 on a shelf that I can always count on if I need to have the car running good, but I never had quite the same power that I got with the Holleys.  But for reliability I will admit the Carter is pretty good.  As long as I drain the fuel and blow it dry before I put It on the shelf, it can sit for years and still bolt up an go.