Ford making a 777HP Stang - This is getting interesting.....

[ACUDANUT]

let me sit down and pull up a chair  this is always entertaining when dave gets involved

This is always entertaining when, Stu wakes up and wants to post. (hey Stu, how is the bird)..Thanks for not answering that question last week.

[ECS]

Three options:

Who designated you the authority in defining the criteria for a Factory vehicle?  I've said a hundred times that you are arguing semantics.   You said Ford just "tosses" a few dollar at Shelby but it means nothing in the overall scheme of things......right?  If we were discussing a Chrysler vehicle with the same criteria you would refer "tossing a few dollars" as a bonafide Partnership!  Keep in mind that the Shelby 1000 HAD to have been sold to an independent Customer because THAT is who they provided the modifications for.....right?  Then again, I guess Shelby is just considered another Customer for Ford.  You are either clueless or naive to the way things really work.  And you don't have to remind me about the many magazines you read and all the Internet searches that have made during lunch breaks while working at your "regular" job.

You act like there is some definitive protocol for the way these Cars are built.  The Industry is run by regular People who do and hide whatever they want.  They play all sorts of games to channel their vehicles.  You can call it what you want and I'll call it what I want.   You seem to have forget my 4th option where I'll shout it from the mountain tops if that's what I choose to do!  I can assure you that what I feel about the Factory status of a Mustang doesn't define who I am or my success in life.  I really hope you are being generously compensated for the hours you've spent trying to change my opinion.

[AKcharger]

You guys Kill me! I only regret tuning in this late!!

Ya' gotta give ECS credit for never giving up the fight no matter how many time he's shown to be wrong, but this should put the issue to bed once and for all, This is right from Howard Jenkins North American Sales and Marketing from Ford:

As it stands, mass production of the 2015 model is slated to begin on September 19th. Before 2015, the Mustang was much more difficult and expensive to own. Mustangs in China where available only through dealer-to-dealer "gray market" purchasing, with a 2013 V6 Mustang selling for $90,000 USD and other 10-14 models only bringing in more money.

Ford announced the formal introduction of the pony car to the Chinese market by displaying a pre-production Gray GT on the showroom floor of a Ford Dealer in Beijing. It's no surprise that the styling and performance of the Mustang has world-wide appeal. When the 2015 Mustang went on sale in Europe it completely sold out in the first 30 seconds. It will be interesting to see if the Chinese market follows the trend and shows the same interest as Europe in the 2015 Mustang

First unveiled at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November 2011, Ford Shelby GT500 is the most potent Mustang ever. The DOHC 354.6 cubic inches (5.811 l) 4-V V8 supercharged engine is certified to produce (493 kW, 855 Nm) 662 bhp and 631 lb-ft of torque,[41] with a claimed top speed of 202 miles per hour (325 km/h).[42] The new GT500 weighs 3,850 pounds (1,750 kg),[42] and was available starting May 2012.

The 2013 models have various improvements and differences compared to the GT500 of 2012 including new front end sheet metal along with standard HID headlamps, along with a new LED tail light assembly. The new 2013 Shelby GT500 also has no grill, due to the massive amount of cooling required for the vehicle. Performance changes include twin fuel pumps (a Mustang GT's single supply pump, twice over), larger fuel injectors, a grippier and larger-diameter clutch, a larger fan, a three-row intercooler (the previous car used a double-row unit), a beefed-up Tremec 6060 six-speed with an internal oil pump, and a single-piece carbon-fiber driveshaft. Larger Brembo front disc brakes with six-piston calipers, reinforced axle tubes, and aero tweaks to help the car reach 200+mph safely. Ford says the changes have resulted in a 14-percent reduction in drag and a 66-percent increase in front-end downforce. Also new for 2013 is a larger front anti-roll bar and retuned springs. An rpm-adjustable electronic launch-control function is standard, as is four-mode electronic stability control.

A Performance package is also offered, adding two-mode adjustable Bilstein dampers and a Torsen limited-slip rear differential. In addition to the Performance package, a Track package for road racing can be ordered bringing a transmission cooler, a nose-mounted differential cooler for the Torsen limited-slip unit, and an air-to-oil engine-oil cooler. Wilwood disc brakes was also brought on board with an improved stopping package.

A Motor Trend magazine May 2012 road test provided a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds and a quarter mile time of 11.6 seconds at over 125 miles per hour (201 km/h). By comparison the '13 GT500 is faster than both the Camaro ZL1 and Corvette Z06.[43]

Automobile-Catalog computer model estimates provided a 0-60 time of 3.3 seconds, a quarter mile time of 11.3 seconds at 130 miles per hour (210 km/h), and a top speed of 212 miles per hour (341 km/h).[44]

In February 2012, at the Chicago Auto Show, Shelby officially announced that a convertible version of the 2013 GT500 will reach production. The convertible has a limited top speed of 155 miles per hour


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj%C3%B6bo

[ECS]

Ya' gotta give ECS credit for never giving up the fight no matter how many time he's shown to be wrong.....

If this topic is my largest glitch for being "wrong" then I feel pretty good in the overall scheme of things.  Like I said before, this thread was never about discussing views on Factory cars, it was a consolidated effort to find a "gotcha" moment for other things that some of these guys hate me for.  I've caught and exposed their cronies for the schemes/lies that they have told and this is simply an attempt at "pay back".  If their intent was anymore transparent, you could use it for a glass bottom boat at Disney Land.  

[TUFCAT]

I've caught and exposed their cronies for the schemes/lies that they have told and this is simply an attempt at "pay back".

You are insinuating that people from the CHRYSLER design office are my cronies and you have caught them in some sort of lying/scheme?

Shirley, you can't be serious?

[ECS]

Shirley, you can't be serious...

You already conveyed your motives for commenting in this thread.  You're seeking revenge over something I never said. 

" Once again, for my part, this was done out of support and respect for the 10 to 15 people from the Chrysler Design Office whom were called liars by you (with regard to the four-door barracuda concept) including my Dad!"

[pettybird]

Who designated you the authority in defining the criteria for a Factory vehicle?  

Come on Mr. title/VIN/monroney guy...it's the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT that determines the criteria for a factory vehicle!  I reported FACTS as to the criteria for a standard GT500, the Shelby GT500KR, the Shelby Super Snake, and the Shelby 1000.  If I pick up the Encyclopedia Brittanica and find the land mass of Madagascar, it doesn't make me an "authority" on Madagascar.  It does, however, mean that I researched the topic and found credible information to back up what I posted.

In case this comes as a surprise, you've done none of that.  At all.

I've said a hundred times that you are arguing semantics.

Say it 100 more times so you can be wrong 200 instead of just 100.

If we were discussing a Chrysler vehicle with the same criteria you would refer "tossing a few dollars" as a bonafide Partnership!

Yes and no.  Ford and Shelby have a partnership, much like Chrysler has a partnership with AEV for Jeeps.  AEV more or less developed the super off road factory packages for the new Wrangler, and those parts are on a new Jeep at the time of initial sale.  Therefore, like the GT500KR.  AEV also makes full upfitter kits for existing owners.  That's like the Shelby 1000.  saaaaaaaame deal.

You said Ford just "tosses" a few dollar at Shelby but it means nothing in the overall scheme of things......right?  If we were discussing a Chrysler vehicle with the same criteria you would refer "tossing a few dollars" as a bonafide Partnership!

You say that like I'm some narrow minded idiot who sucks the teat of Mother Mopar.  You don't know me at all.  I see "Mopar or no car!!!!11!!!!1111!" and gag a little in my mouth.  Chrysler has made some of the biggest shitcans to ever disgrace the interstate highway system.  I'd rather walk than drive just about anything made from 1975-2004.  I've owned four Mustangs and am kind of jonesing for another 5 liter car.  If they weren't so terrible in the snow I'd pick one up for a daily.  Their quality sucks, too, but to paraphrase Jules from Pulp Fiction:  "Mustangs have personality.  Personality goes a long way."

I can even tell you I loathe most E bodies.  They're plastic pieces of crap.  I DO, however, love rare and unusual combinations.  I'd park your white/blue/blue Challenger in my living room.  It's beautiful.

Then again, I guess Shelby is just considered another Customer for Ford.  

I never, ever said that.  Reference any number of posts that you either can't read or can't comprehend.

Keep in mind that the Shelby 1000 HAD to have been sold to an independent Customer because THAT is who they provided the modifications for.....right?  

Well sure, but Wonder makes bread for customers.  It doesn't mean that they've got a deal with Ford to sell NHTSA approved, modified cars which are completed before the MSO is printed.  

You are either clueless or naive to the way things really work.  And you don't have to remind me about the many magazines you read and all the Internet searches that have made during lunch breaks while working at your "regular" job.

Cheap shot, and a really, really stupid one.  No ruling for the shot, but 10 Points from Gryffindor for it being laaaame.

You act like there is some definitive protocol for the way these Cars are built.

Yes.  Yes there is.  The federal government says so.  

The Industry is run by regular People who do and hide whatever they want.  They play all sorts of games to channel their vehicles.  

You could make decent money as a whistleblower for the NHTSA.  Also, provide any evidence at all that that's what happens with the Shelby 1000.

You can call it what you want and I'll call it what I want.  

Well, you COULD, but you could also insist that the moon is made out of cheese or that gravity doesn't exist or that when you cut open your nipples rockets shoot out.  And you'd be wrong.  You are attempting to turn a factual statement into a matter of opinion.  The question at hand isn't "do you think Ford could make these pre-warranty" or "do you think Shelby should open a chain of franchised stores and sell them as new cars."  It's whether or not this particular vehicle, a Shelby 1000, is a factory package installed by Shelby before the issuance of government approval or not.  That's not an debatable point.  It's right or wrong.

I can assure you that what I feel about the Factory status of a Mustang doesn't define who I am or my success in life.

You'd be a flat out horrible person if it did.  

[TUFCAT]

Shirley, you can't be serious...

You already conveyed your motives for commenting in this thread.  You're seeking revenge over something I never said.  

" Once again, for my part, this was done out of support and respect for the 10 to 15 people from the Chrysler Design Office whom were called liars by you (with regard to the four-door barracuda concept) including my Dad!"

Yeah, you've got big "one up" on me...You've insulted my father, I've never insulted yours.

[pettybird]

Shirley, you can't be serious...

You already conveyed your motives for commenting in this thread.  You're seeking revenge over something I never said.  

" Once again, for my part, this was done out of support and respect for the 10 to 15 people from the Chrysler Design Office whom were called liars by you (with regard to the four-door barracuda concept) including my Dad!"

Yeah, you've got big "one up" on me...You've insulted my father, I've never insulted yours.

HE IS YOUR FATHER.  SEARCH YOUR FEELINGS...YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE.

[ECS]

Yes.  Yes there is.  The federal government says so.

You are clueless and naive.

[AKcharger]

[AKcharger]

[TUFCAT]

My Dad is VERY well respected, and very well-liked in the Mopar community.  He is also very knowledgeable, and will tell you the truth. If he doesn't know he says "I don't know"!

[ECS]

You've insulted my father....

I guess I should feel insulted that he didn't cower down and agree with my point of view.   If you consider me disagreeing with your Father about the history of the 4 Door Barracuda as being "insulting"............TUFF!  Take care guys! 

[AKcharger]

[AKcharger]

[TUFCAT]

You've insulted my father....

I guess I should feel insulted that he didn't cower down and agree with my point of view.   If you consider me disagreeing with your Father about the history of the 4 Door Barracuda as being "insulting"............TUFF!  Take care guys!  

You'll be back...who are you kidding? 

For everyone just now tuning in.....ECS has a prior history of this.  Whenever he's found to be incorrect, he just keeps spinning the truth and lying until his "enemy of the day" either gives up or goes away...

[AKcharger]

[Ramsrt]

I took that as a current conversation because I reread it too quickly.  Apologies for that and to Mr. Barcroft as well...people screw up my last name all the time too. Drives me nuts.

OK- 4th try ( without pics this time). Says it went but doesn't show up. Sorry if I bomb you with multiples somehow.

Hi everyone, no problem - I see it also

Tried posting earlier but it doesn't look like it went. Pics must have been too large.

The 2011 SEMA show was beyond expectation. there is just no way to see everything. I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis during the set up day. I remember him saying that for had over $50 million dollars worth of vehicle in the show. There were many vehicles in the Ford display but a couple that caught my eye was the original Cobra that started Shelby on his road of collaboration with Ford and a new Mustang 5.0 that had a few external mods but had no back seat and an X brace installed in its place. Dave had several that stood out to him also.

If there is one thing I learned with my 30 years with Chrysler is anything can happen under the right circumstances. Viper powered Challenger being a case in point. They teased us with a Viper powered Challenger, did a few burnouts and may have even been at the Woodward Cruise. The next thing that pops up is a limited Viper Challenger Drag Pack from the factory.  Do you remember the interview with Ralph Giles of SRT when the Viper was relaunched . He said that it was designed by a small team in secrecy in a locked room after hours without the knowledge of others ( even top brass). Pretty risky stuff and it occurred during bankruptcy and all the turmoil. My father and I had the opportunity to go through the loan guarantees when Iacocca was around and it was a strange time. Younger brother is still with Chrysler running one of the International Divisions.

I've had the opportunity to work inside almost every assembly plant in the Chrysler system in the early 90's when on loan to the Corporate audit staff for 18 months. If a problem was discovered we had manufacturing, engineering, assembly or any ther resource necessary to determine root cause and correction. 

Sorry for going off topic but the point is one upsmanship is still alive in Detroit. Look at the Diesel ads right now. Dodge and Ford have been playing cat and mouse ever since 1989 on Diesel Power. Dodge goes 850 ft lb. on the Cummins, Ford announces the new 2015 at 860 ft. lb. Dodge is doing a High output Cummins with 865+ . Where does it stop. Probably doesn't but is started with a 400 ft lb. B series Cummins that now does 860 + emissions legal.

Just wanted to let you know that Tom is out here.

Tom

[Mytur Binsdirti]

[TUFCAT]

OK- 4th try ( without pics this time). Says it went but doesn't show up. Sorry if I bomb you with multiples somehow.

Hi everyone, no problem - I see it also

Tried posting earlier but it doesn't look like it went. Pics must have been too large.

The 2011 SEMA show was beyond expectation. there is just no way to see everything. I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis during the set up day. I remember him saying that for had over $50 million dollars worth of vehicle in the show. There were many vehicles in the Ford display but a couple that caught my eye was the original Cobra that started Shelby on his road of collaboration with Ford and a new Mustang 5.0 that had a few external mods but had no back seat and an X brace installed in its place. Dave had several that stood out to him also.

If there is one thing I learned with my 30 years with Chrysler is anything can happen under the right circumstances. Viper powered Challenger being a case in point. They teased us with a Viper powered Challenger, did a few burnouts and may have even been at the Woodward Cruise. The next thing that pops up is a limited Viper Challenger Drag Pack from the factory.  Do you remember the interview with Ralph Giles of SRT when the Viper was relaunched . He said that it was designed by a small team in secrecy in a locked room after hours without the knowledge of others ( even top brass). Pretty risky stuff and it occurred during bankruptcy and all the turmoil. My father and I had the opportunity to go through the loan guarantees when Iacocca was around and it was a strange time. Younger brother is still with Chrysler running one of the International Divisions.

I've had the opportunity to work inside almost every assembly plant in the Chrysler system in the early 90's when on loan to the Corporate audit staff for 18 months. If a problem was discovered we had manufacturing, engineering, assembly or any ther resource necessary to determine root cause and correction.  

Sorry for going off topic but the point is one upsmanship is still alive in Detroit. Look at the Diesel ads right now. Dodge and Ford have been playing cat and mouse ever since 1989 on Diesel Power. Dodge goes 850 ft lb. on the Cummins, Ford announces the new 2015 at 860 ft. lb. Dodge is doing a High output Cummins with 865+ . Where does it stop. Probably doesn't but is started with a 400 ft lb. B series Cummins that now does 860 + emissions legal.

Just wanted to let you know that Tom is out here.

Tom

Thanks for sharing your corporate experience with Chrysler and the SEMA show.  Sorry we can't view your photos, (not sure how they could've been germain to the subject since Pettybird already posted 2012 SEMA photos).

[pettybird]

OK- 4th try ( without pics this time). Says it went but doesn't show up. Sorry if I bomb you with multiples somehow.

Hi everyone, no problem - I see it also

Tried posting earlier but it doesn't look like it went. Pics must have been too large.

The 2011 SEMA show was beyond expectation. there is just no way to see everything. I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis during the set up day. I remember him saying that for had over $50 million dollars worth of vehicle in the show. There were many vehicles in the Ford display but a couple that caught my eye was the original Cobra that started Shelby on his road of collaboration with Ford and a new Mustang 5.0 that had a few external mods but had no back seat and an X brace installed in its place. Dave had several that stood out to him also.

If there is one thing I learned with my 30 years with Chrysler is anything can happen under the right circumstances. Viper powered Challenger being a case in point. They teased us with a Viper powered Challenger, did a few burnouts and may have even been at the Woodward Cruise. The next thing that pops up is a limited Viper Challenger Drag Pack from the factory.  Do you remember the interview with Ralph Giles of SRT when the Viper was relaunched . He said that it was designed by a small team in secrecy in a locked room after hours without the knowledge of others ( even top brass). Pretty risky stuff and it occurred during bankruptcy and all the turmoil. My father and I had the opportunity to go through the loan guarantees when Iacocca was around and it was a strange time. Younger brother is still with Chrysler running one of the International Divisions.

I've had the opportunity to work inside almost every assembly plant in the Chrysler system in the early 90's when on loan to the Corporate audit staff for 18 months. If a problem was discovered we had manufacturing, engineering, assembly or any other resource necessary to determine root cause and correction. 

Sorry for going off topic but the point is one upsmanship is still alive in Detroit. Look at the Diesel ads right now. Dodge and Ford have been playing cat and mouse ever since 1989 on Diesel Power. Dodge goes 850 ft lb. on the Cummins, Ford announces the new 2015 at 860 ft. lb. Dodge is doing a High output Cummins with 865+ . Where does it stop. Probably doesn't but is started with a 400 ft lb. B series Cummins that now does 860 + emissions legal.

Just wanted to let you know that Tom is out here.

Tom

Hi Tom--

I went to SEMA in 2010.  You're not kidding that the show is overwhelming.  I remember being in commercial truck tires and thinking "I have no idea where I am."  It was by pure accident that I ran into a Chip Foose autograph session...he's a very cool guy.  Another great part was getting a ride in a Raptor outside over the dirt mound they'd put up next to the drift track.  Another guy and I convinced the driver to be REALLY aggressive, and we were (momentarily, anyway) completely in the air going over that mound.  It kicked ass.

The Cobra was in (one of) the lobbies in a big historical Ford display that year.  Nice hardware.  The Mustang with the X brace was a Laguna Seca edition Boss 302.  I really want a silver/red stripe one. 

As far as the Drag Pack cars, you're spot on that things can come out of nowhere.  However, those cars were sold on bill of sale only and were not road legal.  The one you saw on Woodward was a prototype, and you know those manufacturer plates give them license to drive just about anything on the street!  We got a pair on a car we took in at our dealership that was off of Ford's personal 2000 Cobra R (which is another example of a highly modified, road legal, certified, factory Ford offering) that they used to give VIP's joyrides around their test track.  I'm sure someone caught hell for leaving them on.  I collect plates but no amount of begging has convinced my (Detroit native) boss to let me have them...

Torque ratings aside what impresses me most about the new diesels is how quickly they start and how quietly they run.  My only diesel truck was one of those filthy early 80's Silverados which cranked forever in cold weather.  We have a new Ford at work and you don't have to wait for glow plugs to heat up or perform any voodoo rituals.  The progression of technology in the last two decades is amazing.

The issue here isn't whether or not cool stuff happens.  Dave's (incorrectly) arguing that an aftermarket package installed on a car still constitutes a "factory" vehicle since it was done by a very close partner of Ford's.  Yes, stranger things have happened.  This isn't one of them.  This (the Shelby 1000 that we're 11 pages into discussing) is a straight up, aftermarket tuner package.

Thanks for stopping by-

Doug

[pettybird]

.

[pettybird]

I'm going to pull a Columbo here..."just one more thing."

The 2012 GT500 was powered by a supercharged, all aluminum 5.4 liter engine producing 550hp.

For 2013, Ford upped the power a ton--the 2013-2014 models made a huge 662hp.  They finally got the 2000 Cobra R (and Ford GT) heads, the displacement went up to 5.8 liters, and the supercharger was not only larger but was a different design that was more efficient.

Now, here's yet another in a LONG line of nails in the Shelby 1000's coffin as a factory offering:

Ford was so concerned with the additional power level breaking the engine that they switched over to a cast iron block.  Yep.  662Hp had powertrain engineers worried about the aluminum block.  It CAN hold more, as evidenced by the 1100hp that Shelby and piles of 10.5 outlaw cars running in the single digits.  However, for warranty and durability purposes the material was changed.  Now, with the 5.8 liter already being road tested at the time of the Shelby 1000's debut, how in the hell would powertrain have signed off on pulling that much power out of the aluminum block? 

It's true, too.  You didn't know that before.  Research it.

Or just tell me I smell and no one loves me.  That's really more your speed.

[AKcharger]

Silence from ECS testifies to his defeat!!! We'd like to thank all our belligerents for playing today with a special shout out to Tuffcat and Pettybird whose hard hitting logic and back-to-back rhetorical blows forced ECS to cower in submission!