Ford making a 777HP Stang - This is getting interesting.....

[ECS]

Wow.......another obsessed follower of everything I say & do.  Thank you!

[TUFCAT]

Wow.......another obsessed follower of everything I say & do.  Thank you!

Somebody has to keep track of the bullshit you spew.

You were given many chances of getting out of this "cleanly" and without total humiliation.  Once again, for my part, this was done out of support and respect for the 10 to 15 people from the Chrysler Design Office whom were called liars by you (with regard to the four-door barracuda concept) including my Dad!

Who's the dumbass now?

[pettybird]

.

[ECS]

I have this thing for arrogant assholes who are wrong all the time.

I'm sure you do.  You shouldn't be ashamed however to admit how much you admire yourself.

[dyslexic teddybear]

I think of informative threads such as this[getting the truth out] as a public service.

Thank you gentleman.

[ECS]

Once again, for my part, this was  done to support and respect the 10 to 15 people from the Chrysler Design Office whom were called liars by you (with regard to the four-door barracuda concept) including my Dad!

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.  Like I said, it wasn't important enough at the time to take detailed notes.  I certainly had no way to know that it would be a topic of discussion 3 years later.  My belief/opinion is that these Ford specialty cars are Factory built whether you guys choose to agree or not.

I have been having fun going back & forth with you two guys regarding this topic.  Your quote above however is an absolute, blatant lie.  Nowhere did I ever call your Friends or Father "liars".  Show me ONE place where I ever referred to your Contacts and/or Father as a "liar" and I'll give you 100 Cases of the RPM product that you have been begging me to give you.  Have your Friend petty bird check all of my previous posts on the 4 Door Project.  He obviously doesn't have anything better to do than spend hours rummaging through my past comments.  

[TUFCAT]

Dave. A public apology to my Dad (oldhemiman) and all of his friends from the design office would suit me just fine.... This would include an apology to his good friend and member here, (chargerjy9) whom you've also insulted while he was trying to explain things to you.

[bill440rt]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VyzII09Hos

[ECS]

Dave. A public apology to my Dad (oldhemiman) and all of his friends from the design office would suit me just fine.... This would include an apology to his good friend and member here, (chargerjy9) whom you've also insulted while he was trying to explain things to you.

I have nothing to "apologize" for.  Below is the link for you to rummage through.  If anyone should provide an apology it's YOU for the instigating and rude comments you initiated.  I stand on everything I said in that thread.  If you don't like being punched, don't start a fight.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,98383.0.html

[TUFCAT]

Steroids and muscles don't make you a big man Dave - actions do.  

[TUFCAT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VyzII09Hos

Thanks Bill, but I can't take all the credit, I'm going to have to share that belt with Doug...the best "corner man" any cat can ask for!  

[dyslexic teddybear]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Here's mine.

Considering ANY of the Shelby packages factory is an insult to the factory engineers who went by the rules and produced a 600 plus HP car meeting emissions/safety/reliability that could be sold and serviced/warrantied by any Ford dealer.

It's also an insult to the Dodge engineers that beat Ford using the same restrictive rules that Shelby did not need to meet.

It's amazing we are even talking about 600-700 hp cars from the factory that meet regs and get pretty impressive MPGs too.

JMO

[ECS]

I think of informative threads such as this[getting the truth out] as a public service.

Thank you gentleman.

I too appreciate that there is information that we all provide for furthering the Industry.  While it may appear that petty bird and I we're knocking heads, I respect and appreciate/acknowledge the factual information and data that he accumulated regarding this topic.  I also talked with Tom Barcroft about this thread and he said he was going to log on and chime in.  (I have no idea why he hasn't.)  We both saw the 2 light blue Mustangs that were at SEMA.  He paid more attention to the Race version of the two.  They were close to where the overhead suspended 1967 DYNACORN Mustang Body was hung and displayed from the ceiling. 

Dennis Mondrauch told us about the "Factory" status for the Street Version Car.  Whether he was just pumping up the "brand" is unknown to me.  He did say that they were being built as Factory Cars..  I was going to contact him on the "paperwork" that I saw to see if it might had been something that was printed/advertised by Ford.  Like I said earlier, I didn't take notes at the time because I never figured it would be a point of debate 3 years later. 

[ECS]

Steroids and muscle don't make you a big man Dave - actions do. 

Having the same "TUFF" guy demeanor in person (as opposed to sitting behind the keyboard) is one way you can tell who is a "big man".  I PROMISE you'll get to see if you pass the test sometime in the near future. 

[TUFCAT]

Steroids and muscle don't make you a big man Dave - actions do.  

Having the same "TUFF" guy demeanor in person (as opposed to sitting behind the keyboard) is one way you can tell who is a "big man".  I PROMISE you'll get to see if you pass the test sometime in the near future.  

Are you a terrorist or a Business man?  Certainly a business man like you wouldn't make threats of physical harm to others that you are in disagreement with. If you intended to do so much as to lay a pointed finger on me I will sue your ass for assault and you will likely lose everything you have ever worked for.

If I'm wrong, (and its actually not a threat).... then you owe me an apology right now.... much cheaper than the alternative.  I certainly don't want to feel threatened in any way at any future car shows, because it might cause me to inform the event security staff, local police, and get a restraining order on you.    

Pettybird should do the same.

[ECS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VyzII09Hos

How ironic!  It appears that your video represents nothing more than a big mouthed, paper champion.

[bill440rt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VyzII09Hos

How ironic!  It appears that your video represents nothing more than a big mouthed, paper champion.

It is a tongue-in-cheek response from an outsider's NEUTRAL perspective.   

[ECS]

It is a tongue-in-cheek response from an outsider's NEUTRAL perspective.

The comment wasn't directed at you.  I apologize for the confusion.  This thread became nothing more than a witch hunt to find fault with my view about the definition of a Factory Car.  Regardless if my "memory" was wrong about details I claimed to have witnessed in 2011, it doesn't change what occurs in the Industry today. Vehicles like the 1969 Dodge Daytona, 1969 Shelby Mustang, 1987 Buick GNX, 1968 Hemi Dart, 1989 Turbo Trans Am, etc........were ALL considered Factory manufactured cars.  They were under the Ownership of the Brand who manufactured them until they were sold with their Factory "conversions".  The same Firms were involved doing the same things throughout the years.  The semantics are what clouds the scenarios.  If a 2012 Shelby is not a "Factory" car then neither are the 1969-70 Shelby's or the Boss 429's.  The debate becomes what a "Factory" built car should be defined as.  Is it a Car built  under one roof never leaving the Assembly Line or a continuation assembly built through various stages, while still owned by the Manufacturer?

[pettybird]

The debate becomes what a "Factory" built car should be defined as.  Is it a Car built  under one roof never leaving the Assembly Line or a continuation assembly built through various stages, while still owned by the Manufacturer?

NO, it isn't a "debate."  It's you being wrong more than 50 times in this thread.  How the hell are you STILL trying to be right? 

For like the 10th time the Shelby 1000 is an AFTERMARKET package installed AFTER the point of sale. 

This isn't hard.  This is about you not wanting to let a very simple idea through your neutron-star-dense skull in the presence of comprehensive and overwhelming evidence.

Riddle me this:

Suppose Mr. Norm's (or the dealer of your choice) installed Hemi engines in anything you'd like.  So, random guy (again, doesn't matter since this is hypothetical) takes his brand new, 10 miles on the odometer 1971 Barracuda convertible over there, VIN BH27G1B, and they drop in a Hemi, a four speed, bolt on a shaker, throw in a Dana, etc.  Now, that car comes up for auction and a friend of yours wants to buy it.  The seller has ALL of the original paperwork from Mr Norm's (or First Avenue Chrysler Plymouth, again not important) and your buddy asks what it's worth.  It's dead mint, restored to YOUR standards.  Are you going to advise him to pay $200,000 or $3.5 million?

That's your "semantics" right there.

This isn't about whether or not a car is considered factory if it leaves the factory floor and comes back after a trip to a subcontractor.  The final straw you're hanging onto is this foolish notion that an after the point of sale conversion "counts" as a factory car.  If you think it does, please allow you to give me a few weeks to start churning out G code cars like the one posited above...I'll let you have them for the bargain price of only $900,000.00.  You should be able to make a killing, right?

The only reason you keep bringing up the list of cars below is because you're trying to bullshit your way into the clear, or at least outlast the people who are being big meanies to you for no reason that you (and only you) can think of.  Sorry...I must be so far down the economic ladder from a titan of industry like you that I have a LOT of free time to call you out on it for as long as you'd like to quixotically continue trying to be right.

Every 1969 Dodge Daytona (and Charger 500) wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts in a Dodge parts book.
Every 1969 Shelby Mustang wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts in a Ford parts book.
Every 1969/1970 Boss 429 wears a unique VIN (aside from previously noted paperwork errors in Dearborn) and has all of its unique parts in a Ford parts book.
Every 1987 GNX wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts listed in a Buick parts book.
Every 1968 LO/BO23 car wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts listed in a Dodge/Plymouth parts book.
Every 1989 Turbo Trans Am wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts listed in a Pontiac parts book.

And, again, this is the big one here:

Every 2008-2009 Shelby GT500KR wears a unique VIN and has all of its unique parts listed in a Ford parts book, was built at the Ford factory in Flat Rock, was shipped to Shelby American for KR conversion, and shipped back to Ford for distribution as a new car.

You want a get out of jail free card?  Want a public apology?  Want a Youtube video with me proclaiming my love for RPM by slathering a tub of it all over my body?

I ask for one SHRED of evidence that the Shelby 1000 is a FACTORY car, FROM Ford, with a unique Ford VIN and full emissions/safety testing, with parts available at the Ford dealership parts counter wearing Ford part numbers, JUST LIKE THE 2008-2009 GT500KR.  Your "evidence" so far has been a link to a magazine article which CLEARLY states that the price of the 1000 DOES NOT INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL CAR, a false memory about seeing a car (and impossible window sticker) 5 months before its release, a corroborating witness statement confirming that falsehood, and you called your contact at Ford who obviously didn't even remember the conversation you had with him at all.

Mr. Bancroft hasn't replied because he doesn't feel like being put through the wringer on a subject where you are clearly out of your depth.  I certainly don't blame him.

[ECS]

For like the 10th time the Shelby 1000 is an AFTERMARKET package installed AFTER the point of sale.

Who purchased/owned the blue Shelby 1000 that you posted from the New York Show?

[ECS]

.....and you called your contact at Ford who obviously didn't even remember the conversation you had with him at all.

Mr. Bancroft hasn't replied because he doesn't feel like being put through the wringer on a subject where you are clearly out of your depth.

I haven't talked to Dennis for quite some time.  What are you talking about when you say I "called" him?  I only stated I was going to contact him to see if the "paperwork" was something provided by Ford.  I haven't had the chance to do this.  You typed 3 pages chastising me for not remembering every detail about a vehicle I looked at 3 years ago but you can't get things straight about something I said in the past 24 hours!  And it's good to know that Tom Barcroft contacted you to inform you why he hasn't posted here.  He worked as an Executive for Chrysler for over 30 but agrees with me regarding these specialty cars.  

You can compare Mr. Norm and Boss 429's all you want.  Apples & Oranges.  The fact remains that Mr. Norm bought & OWNED the vehicles he converted prior to re-selling them to his Customers.  Ford retained ownership of the Boss 429's before they were sold to the Dealership.  They weren't sold to a Dealership to undergo a conversion by that Dealership.

[moparstuart]

let me sit down and pull up a chair  this is always entertaining when dave gets involved

[pettybird]

I haven't talked to Dennis for quite some time.  What are you talking about when you say I "called" him?

The car I talked with Dennis could not have been a Mustang 1000.

I took that as a current conversation because I reread it too quickly.  Apologies for that and to Mr. Barcroft as well...people screw up my last name all the time too. Drives me nuts.

[pettybird]

Who purchased/owned the blue Shelby 1000 that you posted from the New York Show?

I am assuming that it was owned by Shelby American as they trucked it all over the country to show it off during 2012, let the press at it, etc.  They may have had it presold.

This is a Road and Track article that not only states that the car on display at the NYIAS was a prototype but uses the term "post-title" and states the cost at $150k PLUS the cost of the original car:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/2012-shelby-1000-1

[pettybird]

You can compare Mr. Norm and Boss 429's all you want.  Apples & Oranges.

And you can stop bringing up Daytonas, GNX's, 69 Shelbys, etc.  Also, don't bother bringing up the 69 Hurst/Olds, 70 300-H, 69 Rambler Scrambler, late 70's Hurst T-top 3rd gen F bodies, et al.  They're not relevant, either.

You need to focus here.  This is about the MODERN relationship between Ford and Shelby, and how cars are built and titled, and when they become a finished consumer product.  This isn't about what you thought you saw, or who you know, or what it looked like or any of that fluff.

Ford and Shelby are separate, publicly held entities.  They collaborate on specific products and licensing agreements but are free to do what they like away from each other. 

Every piece of information I have found either states or implies that the Shelby 1000 is the successor/topper to the Super Snake, a post-title upgrade package modifying a customer's car AFTER the point at which Ford and the federal government certify that the pre-conversion car meets all applicable standards for sale and use on public roads.  In other words, you start with a finished car that Ford washes their hands of and you modify it to your desires at your own peril.

The other path Ford and Shelby has taken was with the 08-09 GT500KR.  Those cars, as shown to you in excruciating detail, left Ford's Flat Rock facility NOT legal for use on public roads until after they were done at Shelby.  It took Shelby American in Las Vegas to complete the car to make it a certified car available for sale to the public.

I have found NO information that Ford shipped incomplete cars to SA, as they did with the GT500KR, to be converted to 1000 spec in order to be eligible for sale and use on public roads.  I even looked hard for a addendum sticker for the 1000 package, and all I've seen (two cars like this...not many people are dumb enough to buy a $200+K mustang and then dump it) are 'certificates' that look a lot like high school diplomas congratulating you on getting piped.  That Road and Track article I linked a post or so ago even calls the car 49 state legal.  Why would Ford leave off such a huge market with such a strong fan base?

You can keep arguing for the sake of arguing.  Call your contacts.  Search the internet.  Find me ONE sales order code, ONE piece of FORD literature, ONE VIN identifier, ONE stitch of evidence that the Shelby 1000 was available NEW from FORD on an MSO.  Keep in mind that I've held the Ford issued MSO for a GT500KR in my hands...

It's put up or shut up time.  Three options:  You can prove me wrong, admit that you know nothing about this topic (aside from what I've gone to great lengths to teach you), or go down as a bullshitter.