Ford making a 777HP Stang - This is getting interesting.....

[ECS]

Like Pettybird says, he could have easily bowed out (around page 3) with a simple "I don't know" ....instead of arguing and fact-twisting with Pettybird and myself.

There was never reason to bow out!  As usual, you guys just HAVE to try and prove me "wrong" about something.  You twist, detract and deflect every little thing that is said until you FINALLY find a diversionary topic to be correct about.  This was never about Monroney Labels.  It was whether Ford ever made a FACTORY vehicle with more than 700 HP.  You're focus is trying to feel like a big shot by "winning" a debate with ECS.  That became obvious when petty bird mentioned his "day job for the last nine years" earlier in the thread.  Maybe that's the real problem!   Neither of you you can find a way to channel your "infinite wisdom and knowledge" to escape the despotism of your Superiors.  

[pettybird]

Well let me be the first to commend you on your self proclaimed and mandated time frame for allowing someone to admit being "wrong".  You can talk all day long about specifics that I was incorrect about but my original comment was that the Ford Motor Company had already built a "Factory" vehicle that made more than 700HP.  Regardless of whatever semantics you choose to express concerning "addendum" paperwork, etc....... that is the fact!

holy shitballs man you're STILL WRONG and you're STILL arguing a completely dead point!!! 

I'm gonna pull out all of the stops here...all caps, bold, italic, underlined and anything else I can find.  Unleashing the fury in 3,2,1...

FORD MOTOR COMPANY OF DEARBORN MICHIGAN NEVER RELEASED A 1000 OR 920 OR 950 OR 1100 HORSEPOWER MUSTANG.  END OF STORY.  THE CAR TO WHICH YOU ARE REFERRING IS AN AFTER-THE-POINT-OF-SALE SHELBY OFFERING AND NOT A FACTORY FORD CAR.  THE SHELBY 1000 DOES NOT HAVE FACTORY FORD PART NUMBERS ON ITS UPGRADED EQUIPMENT.  IT WAS NOT AVAILABLE AS A NEW CAR WITH A NEW CAR WARRANTY FROM YOUR DEALER.  IT DID NOT EXIST IN ANY FORD SALES CATALOGS AS AN ORDERABLE VEHICLE.  THERE ARE NO SALES CODES IN THE FORD SYSTEM FOR A SHELBY 1000.

You were (and still are!) wrong about the Shelby 1000 being available through Ford directly.  You were ALSO wrong about it being at SEMA when you were there.  You were ALSO wrong about a car (which you didn't see) having a Monroney on it from Ford.  You were ALSO wrong about how that Monroney listed horsepower when Ford stickers don't.  You were ALSO wrong to bring up the boss 9 as an example of how things get built at Ford.  You were ALSO wrong about how Ford and Shelby coordinate on factory releases vs. aftermarket tuner packages in the same building. 

THOSE ARE THE DAMN FACTS. YOU ARE 100% WRONG HERE.

[TUFCAT]

 


PETTYBIRD FOR PRESIDENT!!! 

[TUFCAT]

ECS..... Pettybird just got all medieval on your ass!     That was an "EPIC" smack-down if I've ever seen one! 

[ECS]

you're STILL WRONG and you're STILL arguing a completely dead point!!! 

SHELBY is funded directly by Ford and used to manufacture those types of vehicles for their Corporation.  That is a FACT.  

Stick with your "day job".  Maybe one day you'll be "big shot" enough to do your own thing.  

[TUFCAT]

Stick with your "day job".  Maybe one day you'll be "big shot" enough to do your own thing.  

Looks like he just did! 

[Ghoste]

you guys just HAVE to try and prove me "wrong" 

Pot, meet kettle.

[TUFCAT]

you guys just HAVE to try and prove me "wrong" 

Pot, meet kettle.

or better yet.... MOUTH, meet foot.

[pettybird]

you're STILL WRONG and you're STILL arguing a completely dead point!!! 

SHELBY is funded directly by Ford and used to manufacture those types of vehicles for their Corporation.  That is a FACT.  

Stick with your "day job".  Maybe one day you'll be "big shot" enough to do your own thing.  

Wikipedia entry regarding Shelby.  Ford does toss them money but Ford isn't Shelby and Shelby isn't Ford.

Carroll Shelby International (OTC Pink: CSBI) was formed in 2003 from custom performance vehicle manufacturer Shelby American when, founder and owner, Carroll Shelby took the company public, and additionally forming Shelby Automobiles as a subsidiary from which to continue manufacturing vehicles and parts.[1] In 2009, "Shelby Automobiles" was officially renamed to "Shelby American", bringing back the original company name to celebrate the 45th anniversary of the 427 Cobra and GT350.[2] Carroll Shelby Licensing, Inc. is the second wholly owned subsidiary that forms Carroll Shelby International,[3] which is based at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway in Clark County, Nevada.


And, again, since you're still being the kid hopped up on spongebob and candy that tuffy branded you earlier, the only TWO cars done AT Las Vegas WITH Ford blessing, sales codes, part numbers, emissions and crash compliance testing were the 05 GT-H/06-07 GT and the 08-09 GT500KR.  End of story.

Nice cheap shot, too.  Let me put it to you this way:  If you owned the entire western hemisphere and I was starving to death and homeless in the middle of the Sahara desert, and you told me that the Berlin wall was made of macaroni noodles, you'd still be wrong.  

[TUFCAT]

If ECS come back with anything more,  I'll have to call to check on the availability of beds at the psych wards in the greater St.Louis area.

[ECS]

Ford does toss them money but Ford isn't Shelby and Shelby isn't Ford.

Semantics.  They use them to "loop hole" their FACTORY race vehicles.  Similar to the "Shelby Lancer" and the "Lancer Shelby".  One was made by Chrysler as their "Factory" vehicle and the other was a "Conversion".  Shelby was a terrible "business man" and Ford basically established his name for him.  Instead of checking "google" for your information, talk to the People who were there and they will tell you things that the Corporation does not want you to believe.  Semantics......smoke & mirrors!

[ECS]

If ECS come back with anything more,  I'll have to call to check on the availability of beds at the psych wards in the greater St.Louis area.

They're going to let me out for a while so I can take my BOSS for a drive.   

[TUFCAT]

You don't DRIVE your cars  - - ANOTHER LIE!! 

[ECS]

You don't DRIVE your cars  - - ANOTHER LIE!!  

How do you think it got to the area it was parked in this picture?  

[TUFCAT]

How do you think it got to the area it was parked in this picture?  

Trailered and pushed... like the Valiant, Challenger, and black 'Cuda? 

[Aero426]

How do you think it got to the area it was parked in this picture?  

Trailered and pushed... like the Valiant, Challenger, and black 'Cuda?  

DRIVEN is not a convincing argument with all the pre-delivery stuff on the windows.    

[ECS]

DRIVEN......... 

.....is a relative term.

[dyslexic teddybear]

THE SHELBY 1000 DOES NOT HAVE FACTORY FORD PART NUMBERS ON ITS UPGRADED EQUIPMENT. 
[/quote]


The most interesting/important point made. Historically, isn't that what determines the "collector" value of factory packages?

Were not any aftermarket parts used in production cars assigned a factory part number? Early 6pak/6bbl manifolds come to mind.......

[TUFCAT]

Were not any aftermarket parts used in production cars assigned a factory part number? Early 6pak/6bbl manifolds come to mind.......

The sixpack/6bbl was a factory option on a factory produced car. That intake was installed at the plant (in the engine built-up line).

[dyslexic teddybear]

Just thinking from a future "collectability" standpoint......will the Shelby be considered "factory" like Daytona's or Boss's?

Very much doubt it. More like a Mr Norms package......

[dyslexic teddybear]

Were not any aftermarket parts used in production cars assigned a factory part number? Early 6pak/6bbl manifolds come to mind.......

It the sixpack/6bbl was a factory option on a factory produced car. That intake was installed at the plant.

Yeah....

Was thinking no matter the source, aftermarket or OEM supplier, it will have a factory part number and be in the parts system for ordering replacement parts.

If my understanding is correct, the Shelby parts are NOT in the Ford parts system......thus not a factory package.

Hellcat will be.....thus a factory package.....

[TUFCAT]

Just thinking from a future "collectability" standpoint......will the Shelby be considered "factory" like Daytona's or Boss's?

Very much doubt it. More like a Mr Norms package......

Yup. 

[TUFCAT]

"DRIVEN".....is a relative term.

Yes......like "DRIVEN  ON"...and "OFF" the trailer.  

[pettybird]

I don't know how you can even convince yourself that you still have an angle here.  Damn.

Without further ado,

FINE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF DODGECHARGER.COM, A COMPREHENSIVE LIST OF ALL THE THINGS THAT DAVE WALDEN HAS BEEN WRONG ABOUT IN THIS THREAD!

Saleen was only involved with the Boss 302 in 2007. 

Wrong.  Saleen produced a second round of boss cars the next year in Dan Gurney colors.  I've driven both.

Then why not stay with my original comment about the SHELBY 1000 Mustang?

Shelby did not "buy" a Mustang and then convert it (to shelby 1000 spec, inferring that Ford provided the cars).

Half truth.  Shelby 1000 owners bought the cars themselves.  But, since you're insisting that Ford provided them, you're wrong.

Just like the Shelby 1000, the 1969 Dodge Daytona had all of it's features listed on it's original Monroney label.

This will be the first of many times you're wrong about a sticker you never saw.

Take a look at the Federal Monroney Label on a Shelby 1100 and see if everything is listed on the Original copy or if a separate addendum label (of the "conversion") has to accompany the original Window Sticker.  

Wrong since no such window sticker exists.

The FACTORY Shelby Mustang 1000 had 1100HP and that is a fact.

Wrong some more since the 1000 isn't a a FACTORY car.  CAPS LOCK DON'T MAKE YOU RIGHT!

You won't answer the question because the 2012 SHELBY 1000 was built under the EXACT same premise (BY THE SAME COMPANY) that you continue to dismiss.  By admitting that the BOSS 429 is a "FACTORY ASSEMBLY LINE VEHICLE" (and it is) you will contradict everything you have been trying to refute.

This is wrong two ways.  The Shelby 1000 is not a factory Ford offering, and it's a non sequitur to compare a 1000 to a boss 9.

The Shelby 1000 was only built in 2012.  

Wrong.  You can still send your 2010-up GT500 to shelby with a boxcar of cash and they'll make you a brand new 1000 right now.  it's on the SA website.

The Shelby 1000 was considered a "Factory" built vehicle and it was only offered through certified Ford Dealers.  

Wrong two ways.  The Shelby 1000 is not a factory built vehicle.  Also, since the reorganization of performance vehicles and branding, you are no longer required to be 'certified' as in the days of SVT.

Ford Motor Company actually owned the rights to the "Shelby" name and Carroll Shelby was livid with what they did to "his" Shelby Mustang vehicle in 1969-70.  They made changes to the Shelby Mustang that made him furious.  How could Ford have done that if "SHELBY" owned his brand of vehicle?

First part correct but irrelevant.  Last line is pretty funny...are you suggesting Lee Iacocca paid kickbacks to his old company to build shitty FWD turbo cars?  That licensing agreement dissolved a long time ago.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.  It is no different than the 1968 Dodge Hemi Dart or the 1969 Dodge Daytona.  

Me either.  Then, oops, you're wrong again.  The Shelby 1000 is NOT a FACTORY Ford offering.

Once a vehicle is "sold" and then routed through a Company like "Lingenfelter" it is no longer the property of the Manufacturer that built it.  The conversion will NOT show up on the original title information that the Car was built with.

Horse, meet water.  Too bad you won't drink.

The Boss 429 went to the Brighton Plant as a 428 Cobra Jet.  It was the "donor Car" to be converted into the Boss 429.  

Wrong.  A "donor car" is one that gives up a large number of parts to another vehicle.  The Boss 429 Mustangs entered and left KK with all of their original exterior sheetmetal, interior, drivetrain aside from the motor and work, suspension aside from the addition of a rear sway bar...the same car that pulled in, pulled back out.  There was no boss 'shell' waiting for the 428 to give up the goods.

Isn't that the message that twit-cat has been pounding since I made my initial comment about the Shelby 1000?  (It too was considered a Factory Ford vehicle just like the Boss 429.)  According to twit-cat, a vehicle of this nature would require an "addendum" Monroney Label like he stated earlier in reply #70 of this thread.

Still wrong as the Shelby 1000 isn't a factory Ford offering.  Also wrong about the boss 9 needing an addendum.  Or about a Ford Monroney existing for a Shelby 1000.

That's what the losing end of the debate always says when they have been proven wrong!

Funny, Tufcat and I were saying the same thing about you.

I simply provided information on how Ford had already manufactured "Factory" cars that have exceeded that HP number.  

The only information you provided was a magazine article WHICH CLEARLY STATES THAT THE PRICE OF A SHELBY 1000 DOES NOT INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL CAR.

Some of those cars were registered as a Factory Ford vehicle and not a secondary conversion car.  

The 2013-2014 Shelby GT500 and its 662hp motor is the highest rated car Ford has ever produced.  Any car with more than that is an aftermarket/tuner/supplier uprating.

I saw the Monroney Label on one of those Mustang 1000's and it was a Ford issued item.  

By your own admission, no you didn't.  And therefore it wasn't.

It was not an addendum list added or attached to the original.

Since you didn't see ONE window sticker you obviously couldn't see a second.

I only mentioned the early Boss Mustangs because Ford is STILL "loopholing" their specialty Cars the same way.

No they aren't.  The lengthy explanation of the KR and Shelby GT point that out.

The Original BOSS Monroney label posted by Pettybird illustrates and proves that fact.

Wrong, since the boss sticker has NOTHING to do with 'loopholing' cars OR how Ford and Shelby currently coordinate.

I have no idea what I have been trying to express.

We'll let this one stand.

Ford offers/offered Shelby Cars directly from their Corporate Programs and Shelby is still licensed to convert a vehicle that a Customer sends to them after the fact.

Here, mr. horse, is another trough of water.  The KR and GT are scenario #1 while the super snake and 1000 are scenario #2.  I have no idea why you find this so difficult to understand.

[pettybird]

Part two since you're so wrong it exceeded the 9000 character limit of a post.  Let that sink in a bit.

So you've (tufcat) went from denying that Ford/Shelby vehicles were offered exclusively by Ford, to providing specific examples on the very subject that you originally denied had ever occurred?

Wrong, since no one denied that Ford and Shelby coordinate on special editions.  It's just that the 1000 isn't one of them.

I know how Ford sells their vehicles and am content with the proprietary information that that they have provided me over the past 17 years.  

Apparently not.  

Even thought they take a different type of manufacturing route, they both are considered (DMV certified) "Factory" built vehicles.

Wrong.  The DMV and your insurance company would have no idea your car had been converted to Shelby 1000 specs unless you told them.

What part of "I SAW IT MYSELF" do you not understand?

Tom Barcroft was with me at the SEMA Show.  He didn't remember it being a Shelby Mustang with 1100HP but it had 900HP.  He too remembers the seeing the Window Sticker but can't remember the specifics.

There WAS NOT AN ADDENDUM Label with it.  

There was no Shelby 1000 with it, either.

I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the information I saw on that particular vehicle.

You mean the one that you didn't see.

It was light blue and sitting next to the "racing version" which was also light blue in color.  

There weren't two blue Mustangs sitting next to each other at SEMA in the Ford booth in 2011.

I'll admit that I didn't intensely study the Label on the vehicle

How could you?  It didn't exist.

...and I remember being shocked when I saw the Horse Power that it listed.

Since Ford window stickers don't have HP ratings, you couldn't have seen a rating.  On a sticker that didn't exist.  On a car that didn't exist.

Regardless of the Monroney Label, we were told by a Ford Executive that the vehicle was a "FACTORY" Car.

Well, at least you walked this back a bit.  Most likely you were given a heads up on the 2013 GT500 which came out with 112 more HP than the 2012's sitting around you.  But, since the car that you didn't see wasn't a factory car, and didn't have a window sticker, it really isn't germane to the topic at hand.

There was never reason to bow out!  

Other than being dead wrong?

As usual, you guys just HAVE to try and prove me "wrong" about something.

And we did.  A lot.  Repeatedly.  Bluntly.

You twist, detract and deflect every little thing that is said until you FINALLY find a diversionary topic to be correct about.

Wasn't necessary since you provided all of the fail this thread could possibly hold.

This was never about Monroney Labels.  It was whether Ford ever made a FACTORY vehicle with more than 700 HP.

Well, since a Monroney would prove a car's provenance, they're related.  Oh, and in case it's still not clear, Ford has never made a factory, street legal car with more than 662hp.

You're focus is trying to feel like a big shot by "winning" a debate with ECS.

Nope.  The focus here is the truth.  And how thoroughly it has evaded your grasp.  Like a college freshman tripping balls on acid trying to catch butterflies.

That became obvious when petty bird mentioned his "day job for the last nine years" earlier in the thread.

That setup is what you'd call establishing a base of credibility on a topic.  For a counterpoint, talking about sparkly hollow-grams on Fiat paper did nothing of the sort.

Ford does toss them money but Ford isn't Shelby and Shelby isn't Ford.

Semantics.  

No?  You're still not getting that Shelby can make crap for Ford at the same time it makes crap for itself.  It's the whole point you're missing.

They use them to "loop hole" their FACTORY race vehicles.

Swing and a miss, part #749.  Ford FACTORY race cars aren't titleable and are sold...through the PARTS DEPARTMENT.  You want a new Cobra Jet?  It's got a part number and not a title.  No need to talk to your friendly salespersons at all!

...talk to the People who were there and they will tell you things that the Corporation does not want you to believe.

You mean how you were DEAD SURE that you saw a Shelby 1000 before it was built, wearing a sticker it didn't have, and had corroborating witnesses to the fact?  Or are we back to talking about 500 mile AAR's again?  Christ...you can't remember a 1000 days ago.