Ford making a 777HP Stang - This is getting interesting.....

[DC_1]

While I'm sure a small number of outside suppliers or engineering firms assisted Chrysler in the development of the Hellcat it doesn't preclude the fact that it comes to market through its own direct corporate efforts and engineering and not though some proxy company or corporate partnership.....sorry ECS, I don't buy your argument of the 1000hp Shelby trumping the Hellcat. 

[ECS]

Here you go again....dodging questions when you're wrong.

I just choose not to let you detract from my original statement.  The FACTORY Shelby Mustang 1000 had 1100HP and that is a fact.  By all means, prove that statement "wrong". 

[ECS]

......sorry ECS, I don't buy your argument of the 1000hp Shelby trumping the Hellcat. 

No need to apologize!  You have the right to think whatever you want. 

[BananaDan]

I see it very simply, maybe because I'm a simple guy.  No mustang leaves the Ford factory with 1,000HP.  Another company/partner buys a Mustang GT or whatever from the Ford factory, modifies it and then it becomes a 1,000HP mustang.  That means:

Dodge produces 700+HP cars
Ford does not

BD

[ws23rt]

I see it very simply, maybe because I'm a simple guy.  No mustang leaves the Ford factory with 1,000HP.  Another company/partner buys a Mustang GT or whatever from the Ford factory, modifies it and then it becomes a 1,000HP mustang.  That means:

Dodge produces 700+HP cars
Ford does not

BD

  All this makes me smile.  I suspect that ford may regret the distance they have from the 1000hp mustang and might very well correct that distance soon.  It's the way the big three have been playing this game for a long time.  There is no room at the top for all three at the same time.

[ECS]

I see it very simply, maybe because I'm a simple guy.  No mustang leaves the Ford factory with 1,000HP.  Another company/partner buys a Mustang GT or whatever from the Ford factory, modifies it and then it becomes a 1,000HP mustang.

Your "simple" depiction is not representative of the situation.  Shelby did not "buy" a Mustang and then convert it.  Ford did the EXACT same thing with their Mustang that Dodge did with their Charger Daytona in 1969.  Chrysler owned the vehicle from the time it left their regular production "Factory" and then was shipped to Creative Industries for it's "conversion".  

Just like the Shelby 1000, the 1969 Dodge Daytona had all of it's features listed on it's original Monroney label.  If you say that the Shelby 1000 is not a "factory" car, then the 1969 Dodge Daytona was not a "factory" vehicle either.  You can't have it both ways.  

[Indygenerallee]

Geezz, I thought Maximrecoil was bad....... 

[ws23rt]

Geezz, I thought Maximrecoil was bad....... 

[BananaDan]

Could I order a Charger Daytona or Plymouth Superbird from the dealer?  I could, so it was an official car built and sold by Mopar.  I just went to Ford's website and looked at the available Mustang models.  Where do I click to buy a Shelby?

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/models/



Besides, comparing the Daytona to the Hellcat vs. Hellstang argument is not really apples to apples.  It wasn't the Creative Industries Charger Daytona, it was the Dodge Charger Daytona, and I'm pretty sure it was designed by Dodge engineers.  Creative was just outsourced to build them for Dodge.

I was on Shelby's website and they only list the prices for the conversion - not the entire package.  In fact, their sales flyer says "does not include base vehicle cost".  In addition, their website's fine print also says that most modifications will void the factory warranty.  Can't really call it a factory car if the factory warranty is voided.

[JB400]

FYI:  Shelby's are discontinued for the 2015 model year to allow for further development.  A rumored GT350 is to return for the 2016 model year.

[Indygenerallee]

God those new Mustangs look horrendous....

[ECS]

FYI:  Shelby's are discontinued for the 2015 model year to allow for further development.  A rumored GT350 is to return for the 2016 model year.

Thanks for your accurate input.  I posted (twice) a link that specifically told about the 2012 Shelby Mustang 1000 but I guess it was to difficult to understand.  It's comical that the 1969 Daytona "conversion" is considered Factory issue but ANY other Auto Manufacturer who did the EXACT same thing is classified as modified.    

The "regular" 2013 Factory Ford Shelby Mustang had 662 HP and a curb weight of 3820 lbs.  Most Automotive Enthusiasts don't remember that particular car being built.  Even the most anti-Ford naysayer can't say that Car was not a "Factory" built vehicle.

[TUFCAT]

Dan if you go into "Build and Price", near the "cars" tab you will see "current model year" and "previous model year".

Select previous model year. Now you're into 2014 stuff.

Find "2014 Mustang" in the cars tab, click, and away you go. Shelby's are there.....but more on that story later.

Basically you can't get anything from Ford that will make a Hellcat turn a mean eye towards you.  

[ECS]

Creative was just outsourced to build them for Dodge.

Isn't that the exact same scenario that most here are using to describe the "non-Factory built " Shelby Mustang?!? 

[TUFCAT]

Isn't that the exact same scenario that most here are using to describe the "non-Factory built " Shelby Mustang?!?  

No.

[JB400]

Was Creative Industries even considered a car manufacturer?

[TUFCAT]

Was Creative Industries even considered a car manufacturer?

No.

[ECS]

Was Creative Industries even considered a car manufacturer?

This will show the biased mentality that I have been talking about.  ALL of the cars listed below were built EXACTLY under the same manufacturing guise but I guarantee that the "Chrysler" vehicles will be the ONLY ones that (a few here) will hypocritically provide excuses for as to why they are "Factory" Vehicles. 

*Were Ford Boss 429's considered a "Factory" built Car or a conversion Vehicle?

*Were Ford 1969-70 Shelby Mustangs a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?

*Were Chrysler 1968 Hemi Darts a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?

*Were Chrysler 1969 Dodge Daytonas a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?

[ECS]

Was Creative Industries even considered a car manufacturer?

Neither was the Brighton Facility that did the Factory conversions for the BOSS 429.  Keep in mind the Boss 429 is ABSOLUTELY considered a Ford "FACTORY" built vehicle......not a "conversion" Car.

The Mustang's body however was not wide enough to encompass the massive Boss 429 engine and as a result, Ford hired Kar Kraft out of Brighton, MI to modify existing 428 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet Mach 1 Mustangs to properly fit the new Boss 429 engine. Kar Kraft was contracted by Ford to create the Boss 429, because Ford was stretching itself thin across a number of projects, such as the Boss 302 and its Trans Am version that competed in the SCCA Trans Am Series of races in the same years the Boss 429 was being produced for NASCAR. Kar Kraft at the time was also in the process of creating the Trans-Am Boss 302 as well. Production on the Boss 429 began in 1968 in Brighton, Michigan at Kar-Kraft's factory; the cars were transported to this plant directly from the auto maker's plant, and the work began. Kar Kraft made extensive modifications to the Mustang, including widening the shock towers and extended out the inner fenders to allow this massive engine to fit. The mounts for the front suspension were chopped and displaced to create room for the block and exhaust manifolds.[1] Next the battery was repositioned to the trunk and a stiff 3/4" sway bar was added to rear end to improve handling since the car was now nose heavy. This was the first Mustang ever fitted with a rear sway bar, and it notably handled much better than other big-block Mustangs of the time, making it a very capable track car. It came fitted with an 8,000rpm tachometer, and AM only radio. In addition, a hole was cut in the hood, and a manually controlled hood scoop was added to these cars. Other features included a front spoiler that was shallower than the Boss 302 spoiler, color keyed dual racing mirrors, and an engine oil cooler. It was also equipped with a 3.91 ratio rear axle with a "Traction-Lock" limited slip differential.

[ECS]

Neither was the Brighton Facility.....

Were the Boss 429 cars considered a Ford DMV vehicle or just a 428 Mustang shipped from the Dearborn Plant to be customized at the Brighton Plant?  Were these cars offered as "NEW" Factory vehicles from the Ford Motor Company, sold through a Ford dealership or were they registered and sold as an outsourced conversion?  Like I said earlier, Ford has been doing this for years and many of their "conversions" are DMV certified as first generation Factory vehicles.

[TUFCAT]

Once again ECS, you're sooo wrong.....please let me explain!  We don't want people to be misinformed.  

Your "simple" depiction is not representative of the situation.

Now wait just a minute!!  First of all, Banana Dan's "simple deduction" (as you put it) is CORRECT . Yours ECS, ...no big surprise here....is not.  But I recognize YOU have an agenda....and he doesn't so I'll cut to the chase....

Shelby did not "buy" a Mustang and then convert it.

Uh, yes they did. In the case of the Shelby 1000, to make the conversion an individual has to purchase a GT500 form their friendly Ford dealer, and have it converted by Shelby American into "Shelby 1000" status.  Shelby American also sells converted vehicles to their own customers and bypasses the friendly Ford dealer altogether.

 

If you say that the Shelby 1000 is not a "factory" car, then the 1969 Dodge Daytona was not a factory" vehicle either.

Okay let's break this down so people understand exactly what ECS latches onto....(as a self proclaimed practicing "window sticker expert" I don't know why he didn't picked this up on this himself)....

Ford Motor Company aka "Ford" manufactured two Shelby Mustang models for 2014. One being the "Mustang Shelby GT500 Coupe", and the other, a "Mustang Shelby GT 500 Convertible".  I have to use 2014 because the 2015 models are not out yet.

The Ford "Shelby Mustang GT500 Coupe" has a body VIN designation of P8J. The "Shelby Mustang GT500 Convertible" has its own distinctive body VIN designation of P8K.  For the record, all Ford "Mustang GT" models have separate VIN designations... P8C for a Mustang GT Coupe , and P8F for a Mustang GT convertible.

I just choose not to let you detract from my original statement.  The FACTORY Shelby Mustang 1000 had 1100HP and that is a fact.  By all means, prove that statement "wrong".  

Ford does not build, sell, market, distribute, advertise, or even mention any other Mustangs that bear the "Shelby" name. Why?  Because any 2007-2014 Mustang bearing the name "Shelby" THAT DOES NOT HAVE a vin designation of P8J or P8K is not a Ford product.  It is a Shelby American product. Period.  Plain and Simple ....but not end of our story....

ECS won't tell you this, so I'll have to.  The Shelby Models built by "Shelby American" are not considered OEM Ford products.  Sure they might have the same VIN designations as the Ford GT500 (P8J and P8K) but they have been converted.  

Just like the Shelby 1000, the 1969 Dodge Daytona had all of its features listed on its original Monroney label.

Okay this is sort of a half-truth. The vehicle that starts the conversion process at Shelby American is a genuine Ford Mustang Shelby GT500.  It left the factory wearing the same body VIN designations (P8J or P8K) and is considered a factory "Shelby" model - but from who's factory?  Prior to conversion these cars were honest-to-goodness Ford Mustang "Shelby GT500" vehicles - just as legitimate as the tens pound of shit Carroll Shelby wore under his cowboy hat.

Ford did the EXACT same thing with their Mustang that Dodge did with their Charger Daytona in 1969.

Now stop right here for a moment....are you sure you want to say that?   Are you talking about vehicles identified as "Ford" or "Shelby American" on the factory applied Federally mandated Monroney label?  Or in the case of a Shelby American, the "addendum"?

Using your "production line" logic, the 1969 Dodge Daytona, all Shelby Mustangs, the 1987 Buick GNX, etc......should not be considered "production line" vehicles simply because THEIR assembly had additional stages within the Factory build process.  Keep in mind that they ALL had Federal Monroney Labels that showed their build features as being "Factory" issued.

Okey dokey cowboy....it looks like you need me to save yer ass again, so let me do some more "splainin" before ya sink further into that hole you've dug.  After the dust settles from the Shelby American boys getting there greasy mitts all over them Mustangs they hafta affix their own window sticker "addendum" to legally sell these rascals.  The addendum legally informs the new buyer of the adjusted MSRP, and other requirements under the monroney law such as equipment changes, and any specifications that are no longer applicable from the original build-up at Ford's Auto Alliance plant in Flat Rock, Michigan (where the factory window sticker was applied just in case you guys weren't keeping up).  I don't want ECS to get upset with me so let me clarify -  the factory window sticker said the car was manufactured as a Ford Shelby GT500.

[TUFCAT]

Chrysler owned the vehicle from the time it left their regular production "Factory" and then was shipped to Creative Industries for its "conversion".  

Yes...., yes.......come on.......you can say it...... *[and]* .....what's the important part your missing?   Keep thinking.  I know you can do it....[you really don't get it do you]?   Oh boy.   Gonna have to do some more heavy lifting here....

In regard to the Daytona, Hurst LO23/RM23's, 300H, or anything else you can think of (except Superbird which was mainly completed at Lynch Road then sent to Chrysler's Clairpointe facility to have nose and wings fitted).  These cars are FACTORY BUILT.....

ECS probably wants a reason so I'll oblidge him once again. These cars were ordered through the same channels as regular Chrysler vehicles, and sold through Chrysler dealerships.  Chrysler designed, tested, certified, marketed, sold, and warranted these vehicles just like any other vehicle.  Did they send partially built vehicles out for conversion in some cases?  Certainly.  But they came back to the Chrysler assembly plant to be invoiced and made ready for shipment.  These cars had regular production options, for a regular production vehicle, using a regular production assigned VIN. They left as a completed saleable vehicle (with a factory monroney label glued to the window) when they headed out for Anytown, USA.  

ALL of the cars listed below were built EXACTLY under the same manufacturing guise but I guarantee that the "Chrysler" vehicles will be the ONLY ones that (a few here) will hypocritically provide excuses for as to why they are "Factory" Vehicles.  
*Were Ford Boss 429's considered a "Factory" built Car or a conversion Vehicle?
*Were Ford 1969-70 Shelby Mustangs a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?
*Were Chrysler 1968 Hemi Darts a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?
*Were Chrysler 1969 Dodge Daytonas a "Factory" Car or a conversion Vehicle?

As MaximRecoil would say...this is a non sequitur!  (non se·qui·tur) noun: a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement).   Nothing to see here folks...so let's move on.  

Mr. Norm NEVER had the authority to have Monroney Labels altered to show his conversions as being "Factory" commissioned.  The Original Monroney Label is a mandated Federal document, used to convey vehicle characteristics that are "Factory" issued.

EUREKA!!!  Finally one damn statement I can agree with!  Poor Mr. Norm...how did he get wrapped up into all of this?  If you really stop and think about what ECS says here, he could have answered a lot of his own questions.  I don't know the laws that governed dealerships in 1969, but by todays standards, a "Mr. Norm" would only have to create an addendum to the window sticker (providing the EPA wasn't crawling up his ass)....I wouldn't have needed to go through this writing exercise. JEESH!  

Take a look at the Federal Monroney Label on a Shelby 1100 and see if everything is listed on the Original copy or if a separate addendum label (of the "conversion") has to accompany the original Window Sticker.  Then see if you can send a Viper directly from the Factory to a conversion Company like Hennessey and have their upgrades listed on the ORIGINAL Monroney Label as being Dodge Corporation built.  That will tell you who works for who or if the tail wags the dog.

More Tail Waggin' Dogs right here folks, ....and more invalid points thrown out by ECS to suit his own personal agenda (whatever the hell it is these days).  There's really no new facts presented. However, this is the EXACT reason why some cars, like a 650HP Cadillac CTS-V converted by Lingenfelder for example, is not considered an "OEM" Cadillac.  Cadillac can only rate the CTS-V with the horsepower it had when it left the factory floor....just as Ford does with its Shelby GT500 models (VIN codes P8J and P8K).  Here's a simple way to look at it....If it doesn't utilize "born with" parts...then its probably not a FACTORY BUILT CAR.


By all means....If you like what you see, tell your friends!     I'll be here all week      Tip your waitresses, and try the veal.  

[ECS]

In regard to the Daytona, Hurst LO23/RM23's, 300H, or anything else you can think of (except Superbird which was mainly completed at Lynch Road then sent to Chrysler's Clairpointe facility to have nose and wings fitted).  These cars are FACTORY BUILT.

.........more invalid points are being thrown out to suit ECS's own personal agenda.

Are you really this naive or just pretending to be?  You keep defending the "Factory" status of the Chrysler conversions as being "Factory Built" but then dismiss the SAME build characteristics used by Brand X vehicles as being a secondary conversions.   

And exactly what delusional "personal agenda" do you think I have for supporting the "Factory" characteristics of the 2012 Shelby Mustang 1000?  I don't own one, do not sell components for them or have any affiliation with that Vehicle whatsoever.   

[TUFCAT]

Are you really this naive or just pretending to be?  You keep defending the "Factory" status of the Chrysler conversions as being "Factory Built" but then dismiss the SAME build characteristics used by Brand X vehicles as being a secondary conversions.    

And exactly what delusional "personal agenda" do you think I have for supporting the "Factory" characteristics of the 2012 Shelby Mustang 1000?  I don't own one, do not sell components for them or have any affiliation with that Vehicle whatsoever.  

If you want more just say the word..... I'll get the hostess to find you a table.

[ECS]

If you want more just say the word..... I'll get the hostess to find you a table.

When you were a Kid, did a long or short yellow Bus pick you up for School?