Ford making a 777HP Stang - This is getting interesting.....

[Ghoste]

Whatever.    As usual you are correct and I will just admit it now and it will save another thread from getting dragged into one of the senseless little sideshows you love.

Semantics.

[TUFCAT]

Using that same line of logic, I guess the 1969 Dodge Daytona is not actually a "Dodge" vehicle and should be classified as a 1969 Creative Industries Daytona.......right?

Like an outside vendor who built a 4-door Barracuda?  

[ECS]

Whatever.    As usual you are correct and I will just admit it now and it will save another thread from getting dragged into one of the senseless little sideshows you love.

Semantics.

Unlike some, I have a realistic appreciation for every Automobile Manufacturer.  I don't dismiss one particular entity when they do the exact same thing that my "favorite" Manufacturer does.  You can't have it both ways.

.......and the "semantics" occur when you call Ford Partnered/Owned Subsidiaries as being "outside contractors".  

[TUFCAT]

Ford has ownership in the Companies that they use to channel their racing programs.  Similar to the Saleen Mustangs and SLP with General Motors, Ford uses their "secretly funded" Racing outlets as an addendum to their normal Corporate offerings.  While it is all "smoke & mirrors", Ford is directly funding those Programs.  

Interesting.  I thought Roush Performance was owned and operated by Jack Roush?   Can you dig into the Ford partnership papers and find out exactly how much of the company Ford actually owns?  And while you're at it, can you get the same information for Saleen and Shelby American? Only if you've got the time....but realistically it shouldn't be that hard for you.  

[ECS]

What is Ford's current ownership percentage of Roush Performance these days?

Take a look at the Federal Monroney Label on a Shelby 1100 and see if everything is listed on the Original copy or if a separate addendum label (of the "conversion") has to accompany the original Window Sticker.  Then see if you can send a Viper directly from the Factory to a conversion Company like Hennessey and have their upgrades listed on the ORIGINAL Monroney Label as being Dodge Corporation built.  That will tell you who works for who or if the tail wags the dog.

[TUFCAT]

Take a look at the Federal Monroney Label on a Shelby 1100 and see if everything is listed on the Original copy or if a separate addendum label (of the "conversion") has to accompany the original Window Sticker.  Then see if you can send a Viper directly from the Factory to a conversion Company like Hennessey and have their upgrades listed on the ORIGINAL Monroney Label as being Dodge Corporation built.  That will tell you who works for who or if the tail wags the dog.

What about Roush and Saleen?  I didn't think we were talking about Hennessey Vipers, but I'll take your word for it.

[JB400]

Aren't Saleen and Roush just tuners, while there is a licensing agreement between Shelby American and Ford?  Shelby's still have a factory Ford warranty regardless of modifications, while Saleen and Roush either have to modify within limits of the Ford warranty or offer their own.

[TUFCAT]

Aren't Saleen and Roush just tuners, while there is a licensing agreement between Shelby American and Ford?  Shelby's still have a factory Ford warranty regardless of modifications, while Saleen and Roush either have to modify within limits of the Ford warranty or offer their own.

Saleen and Roush are vehicle manufacturers who buy vehicles from Ford - just like conversion van companies and body upfitters.  They also provide their own warranties.  They are subject to the same federal regulations governing design and testing of their automotive products as larger vehicle manufacturers.

[ECS]

Aren't Saleen and Roush just tuners, while there is a licensing agreement between Shelby American and Ford?  Shelby's still have a factory Ford warranty regardless of modifications, while Saleen and Roush either have to modify within limits of the Ford warranty or offer their own.

They are vehicle manufacturers who buy vehicles from Ford - just like conversion van companies and body upfitters.

Really?  That's an interesting opinion since they have only ONE DOT/DMV Monroney Label with Ford listed as the main Manufacturer!

[ECS]

Ford has ownership in the Companies that they use to channel their racing programs.  Similar to the Saleen Mustangs and SLP with General Motors, Ford uses their "secretly funded" Racing outlets as an addendum to their normal Corporate offerings.  While it is all "smoke & mirrors", Ford is directly funding those Programs.  

Interesting.  I thought Roush Performance was owned and operated by Jack Roush?  

Who said anything about "Jack Roush" being Corporate funded by Ford?  It's a known fact that both Shelby and Saleen were hired/funded by Ford to assist in developing their Corporate Racing program.  They used those firms as a loophole to offer some "special" vehicles.  They have done this for years.  The 1969-70 BOSS 429 was another vehicle built under the same guidelines.

[TUFCAT]

Really?  That's an interesting opinion since they have only ONE DOT/DMV Monroney Label with Ford listed as the main Manufacturer!

Have you checked the VIN on Saleen Boss 302 lately...its not a typical Ford Vin.  .

[ECS]

Saleen 302 lately...its not a typical Ford VIN. 

Saleen was only involved with the Boss 302 in 2007.  They built 500 vehicles (under the Parnelli Jones name) and he has nothing to do with the newer Boss 302's.

[TUFCAT]

Saleen was only involved with the Boss 302 in 2007.  They built 500 vehicles (under the Parnelli Jones name) and he has nothing to do with the newer Boss 302's.

Does Ford own any part of Saleen?  

[ECS]

Does Ford own any part of Saleen?  

Not any more.

[SRT-440]

Until Ford builds a car on THEIR production line it's not a factory muscle car...out sourcing doesn't count...Mr. Norm has been making 1000+ hp Challengers for a few years now if we use that line of thinking.
And the Hellcat will NOT have a limited production number it WILL be mass produced and built by Dodge and have a real VIN.

No fear...Ford and GM will respond...but I think only Dodge is concerned with absolute HP and straight line performance...GM likes their cars to be good in the turns.

[Indygenerallee]

Until Ford builds a car on THEIR production line it's not a factory muscle car...out sourcing doesn't count

[ECS]

Until Ford builds a car on THEIR production line it's not a factory muscle car...out sourcing doesn't count...Mr. Norm has been making 1000+ hp Challengers for a few years now if we use that line of thinking.

An Automobile Manufacturer is basically a General Contractor that commissions subsidized independent Suppliers to manufacture components under their Engineering specifications.  The Assembly of a vehicle can have many build phases within the process of assembling those specified components.  Mr. Norm NEVER had the authority to have Monroney Labels altered to show his conversions as being "Factory" commissioned.  The Original Monroney Label is a mandated Federal document, used to convey vehicle characteristics that are "Factory" issued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroney_sticker  

Using your "production line" logic, the 1969 Dodge Daytona, all Shelby Mustangs, the 1987 Buick GNX, etc......should not be considered "production line" vehicles simply because THEIR assembly had additional stages within the Factory build process.  Keep in mind that they ALL had Federal Monroney Labels that showed their build features as being "Factory" issued.

[TUFCAT]

With regard to Saleen specifically, they are an OEM Manufacturer.  A Ford dealership cannot market, order, take delivery, sell, repair or perform warranty work on a Saleen product unless Saleen "certifies" the dealership first.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleen


I could not find anything stating Ford Motor Company had any ownership in Saleen at all - as ECS stated.


 

[ECS]

I could not find anything........

When I was licensed by Ford in 1998, one of the Corporate Vice Presidents (now retired) shared information regarding the Subsidiaries that Ford either owned or directly funded.  Saleen was one of them.  You're naive if you think all Corporate Racing programs are completely transparent.  Auto Manufacturers like Ford have been known to fund or set up other Firms to channel programs that are not production protocol.  You're inability to locate the facts does not negate the reality of the subject matter.   

[TUFCAT]

I could not find anything........

You're inability to locate the facts does not negate the reality of the subject matter.    

Surely you can't be serious.  You brought it this topic up , then started throwing the facts around.  

I was just trying to locate any shred of evidence that [might support] your unfounded scenario.  

There's no secret that Corporate manufacturer's have been supporting race teams since the invention of the automobile ...again, no news here.  In fact Chrysler was probably the biggest spender of them all - funneling bookoo bucks through Richard Petty Enterprises via parts, engines, and complete race cars....not to mention CASH.  

[ECS]

You brought it this topic up , then started throwing the facts around.

Then why not stay with my original comment about the SHELBY 1000 Mustang?  Why divert to Saleen in order to question the business relationship between Shelby and Ford?  Steve Saleen has absolutely nothing to do with the Shelby 1100 HP Mustang!  

[TUFCAT]

I think you need to re-read the thread posts starting at reply #22. To borrow one on your favorite expressions... You are the the epitome of the "tail wagging the dog" on this thread.  You changed the whole direction of the topic. You must have a bad case of amnesia....!!  Funny how you want me to stay on topic about Shelby because it fits your agenda?  Puh-leeez.  

[TUFCAT]

You brought it this topic up , then started throwing the facts around.

Then why not stay with my original comment about the SHELBY 1000 Mustang?  Why divert to Saleen in order to question the business relationship between Shelby and Ford?  Steve Saleen has absolutely nothing to do with the Shelby 1100 HP Mustang!  

Let's try to answer my question about Ford Motor Company's "ownership interests" in its outside vendors such as.... oh I don't know,  how about Saleen?

[ECS]

I think you need to re-read the thread posts starting at reply #22.

Why ignore my initial post #17? *  Again, the Shelby 1000 has nothing to do with Steve Saleen.  Sorry if you were confused by the meaning of the word "similar" that I used in #22. 

*What's the big deal about a 2014 Challenger with 700 HP when the 2012 Shelby Mustang was available with 1100 HP?

http://blog.caranddriver.com/shelby-previews-1100-hp-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-named-shelby-1000-new-york-auto-show/

Chrysler has historically been notorious for hitting the mark after the other Manufacturers have "been there.....done that".  The real issue here is that some can't acknowledge that other Automobile Companies have already done what Dodge is just now embarking on.  It's "similar" to the hypocrisy some use when comparing their Kids to other People's Children.  If their Kid is in a "Gang", it's because they are trying to expand and further their Social Skills.  When OTHER Kids are in a "Gang", it's because they are Hooligans & Thugs! 

[TUFCAT]

Here you go again....dodging questions when you're wrong.  I could do this all day and night but it gets annoying after a while.