Full suspension and steering rebuild - still some play in the wheel

[krigel]

Ok, the suspension is all new with Hotchkis parts front to back. The steering is all new with Hotchkis idler, pitman, steering rods, and a Firm Feel Stage 3 box. The guys at Firm Feel think it should have no play in the wheel, but there is about an inch and a half of play. I've had the pot box checked, and it got a clean bill of health. Any other suggestions?

[Mike DC]

 
Slap me for bringing up something so simple, but . . . did you adjust the play on the steering box? 

[timmycharger]

 
Slap me for bringing up something so simple, but . . . did you adjust the play on the steering box? 

boy, Im looking into a box from them, I would hope for that kind of money it doesnt need adjustments right away..

[Kern Dog]

It is supposed to be adjusted after reassembly but it does not hurt to check. Another area to look at is the steering box mounts on the K member. They can and DO flex, especially if a mount is cracked. I weld additional gussets around the mounts when I have an engine out of a car. You can get the car up on car ramps or a 4 post lift and watch the steering linkage as another person steers back and forth. I've had NEW idler arms have too much slop or fit loose in the K member. Pitman arms rarely are bad in my experience. Tie rod ends rarely affect steering play unless they are really bad. The steering box mount flex and Idler arm are the usual culprits.

[don duick]

is it power steering ? if so did you check it with engine running ? power steering has that amount of play if you check it with engine off. if you have this play with engine running you have a serious problem. Sorry if I am stating the obvious.

[myk]

I thought Firm Feel boxes naturally have play in them; they're just re-built and re-valved OEM boxes anyway, right?  It was my understanding that only a Borgeson unit would not have this sort of issue...

[familymopar]

I recently re-did all of my suspension and steering components except for the steering box with Hotchkis and firm feel parts.  I bought  firm feel stage 3 box that is currently sitting in my garage.  Right before I did the rebuild I spoke with some friends of mine and we drove each others cars.  I decided to do the job but hold off on the box.   After all was done I drove it and then I drove some other b bodies with both firm feel stage 2/3 boxes as well as some borgesons. I have a good inch play at top center of my wheel.  After driving the others I decided not to do the FF box, now anyway.  The borgeson had a little less play but the FF boxes have as much play as mine at the top.  And otherwise my steering is fine, although I would like it a little stiffer.  But as far as the play at the top goes, they all had it, the borgeson being a little less. I would love to rid myself of it, so let me know when you do.

[tan top]

 when you checked for play at the wheel ,  did you have the engine running ?

[familymopar]

when you checked for play at the wheel ,  did you have the engine running ?

If the question is directed to me, the plat in the wheel is as I am driving down the street, so yes.  And it was with so many others I have driven as well.

[tan top]

when you checked for play at the wheel ,  did you have the engine running ?

If the question is directed to me, the plat in the wheel is as I am driving down the street, so yes.  And it was with so many others I have driven as well.

   woops  noo sorry FM    forgot to quote the original poster  my bad   ,  


I have never tried a stage 3 firm feel box , cant say , but all these cars have some movment in the wheel  ,  there will be play with out the engine running , when the motor running , there is still play but the wheels move a little at stand still when wheel is moved ! when centred ,  I forget how much my original box moved & the rebuilt box I fitted as it was so long a go , & now I have a stage 1 firm feel box   but they are all like it to some extent
they will never be like a rack & pinion

[familymopar]

No worries tan top.

I think that little bit of play is, unfortunately, normal.  I do not believe that a FF stage 3, or any, box really rectifies this.  I have marked it up to nature of the beast.

[AZMoparboy]

Krigel, I think Familymopar has it right. This design of the steering box has been around for many years. Develop so many years ago no one even knows when. We've been spoiled by modern vehicles, even our economy car handles so much better then the antiquated machine that we are trying to get to perform as well as they do. My third-generation charger, I went through the same steps as you did. I didn't buy a third stage gearbox but I did take my steering box over to a local steering box shop. My son-in-law does business with this shop on a regular basis and recommended to me that I ought to go over and have a chat with them. This guy knew what he was talking about. He gave me a  Show and tell of just what he was going to do to the box and that he was very familiar with this looseness with the Chrysler steering gearbox. After the rebuild and then reinstalled the gearbox, my car handles so much better than it did. Also it wasn't cheap either, $325 out the door, ouch. On my new project, a 1971 Challenger I'm going to go with rack & Pinion and see just what the difference is in the handling. I am also going to put a four link rear end in it also and try to stiffen the car up to where it will perform more modernized. I really love this hobby it's all about the Chase and then we winning, good luck

[charge69]

I agree that familymopar is right about the natural "play" in the steering even when it is brand new.   My power steering box was rebuilt along with my power steering pump and even had new hoses put on using the original metal hose-ends.  The complete front-end was rebuilt including the pittman arm and bushings and it still has a little play in the steering! 

I think it was just natural for these cars to have a little play, even when new!  By the way, the power steering of 1969 is a far cry from what we have now. NO-FEEDBACK was natural phenomenon of PS back then and mine is certainly typical of the era!!

[fy469rtse]

The play not in the box fella's, next step is to idler arm , rollerize arm instead of bush, don't believe me , put it on a four post lift , have someone sitting in it with it running , move the steering wheel back and forth just past play , you under watching, drag links to bottom arms also come into play,
How many of you guys have the plates to bottom arms to eliminate the play there,
Plenty of past threads on here , start one by one mod and see what differences you come up with ,
I do all of them that I've learned over the years to improve the steering almost automatically to every car I build ,

[familymopar]

The play not in the box fella's, next step is to idler arm , rollerize arm instead of bush, don't believe me , put it on a four post lift , have someone sitting in it with it running , move the steering wheel back and forth just past play , you under watching, drag links to bottom arms also come into play,
How many of you guys have the plates to bottom arms to eliminate the play there,
Plenty of past threads on here , start one by one mod and see what differences you come up with ,
I do all of them that I've learned over the years to improve the steering almost automatically to every car I build ,

I assume you mean thus roller idler, or one like it:

http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_idler_arm_bearing_kit_1.html

I am no pro on this but when I went to buy this a few months back firm feel assured me it would serve no purpose in minimizing my steering play. They actually talked me in to not doing it in my application and I just replaced the idler, pitman, bushings, and near everything else except the center link. 

I am certainly not claiming it won't help eliminate the play, I am only claiming that the guys who manufacture it assured me it wouldn't. They also assured me it was simply the nature of the box. Again, I suppose I don't know better but I firmly feel it is in the box.

If you are talking about welding plates on to the lower control arms to stiffen those up, I have not done that although I intend to. Nonetheless, the play in my steering is present before the wheels ever move and only at top center. I am very confident that is not a result of the LCAs.

[krigel]

Thanks for all the replies. Firm Feel swears there should be no play, and they don't think the boxes should be adjusted after they are in the car. The play is while the car is moving (yes, with power steering). I'm beginning to think it is something I'll have to live with. A smaller steering wheel might not make it feel as drastic.

[Kern Dog]

Krigel, I think Familymopar has it right. This design of the steering box has been around for many years. Develop so many years ago no one even knows when.

The iron case power steering chuck was designed in 1957 and used in every P/S equipped American built Mopar car until the Diplomat/Gran Fury ended production in 1989. The B series vans also used them but I'm not sure of when they went to a different design. The ratio was always 15.7 to one.
The OEM Police "Firm Feel" units were just your basic production line chucks that were built with more attention to detail and with a few better parts.
When a reputable shop like Firm Feel rebuilds a steering box, they use the best of the parts they have. Think of it as you would as in engine blueprinting. Clearances are tighter and more consistent. Parts fit together with less slop.
The Firm Feel stage 3 chuck is a great unit. I have one in my 70 Charger along with the Fast ratio Pitman and Idler arms. The FR arms move my 15.7 ratio to about 12.0 to 1. Also, some may not be aware but Firm Feel also has a Stage 4Power Steering option that they do not advertise.

[myk]

Stage 4?  I can only wonder what that's like. 

No worries tan top.

I think that little bit of play is, unfortunately, normal.  I do not believe that a FF stage 3, or any, box really rectifies this.  I have marked it up to nature of the beast.

So are you going to sell that box?

[familymopar]

Stage 4?  I can only wonder what that's like. 

No worries tan top.

I think that little bit of play is, unfortunately, normal.  I do not believe that a FF stage 3, or any, box really rectifies this.  I have marked it up to nature of the beast.

So are you going to sell that box?

I may very well.  I am not 100% that I won't install it.  After the front end rebuild, I don't think it will do me any good in terms of "slop" but it would still give me a somewhat stiffer feel.

Problem is the FirmFeel core charger.  If I do sell it I would hope to get someone's core to get my deposit back.  Kind of tricky.

[ODZKing]

I have a Firm Feel (I believe) stage 1 on my 67 Charger. I also had to get the arm package as mine had the non-tapered.
I have NO play in my steering what so ever. None!

In fact I cheaped out and just put a regular box on my 73 and I'm sorry I did. It will get replaced eventually to the Firm Feel.

Now, I have not talked to anyone who has used these folks parts but from what I am told they are same as Firm Feel boxes. http://www.steerandgear.com/
Anyone tried?

[familymopar]

I have never driven a steerngear, to my knowledge anyway.  There are a few threads here about them and seem to be pretty well liked.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,98325.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,89300.0.html

Seems Bill440rt uses one, so hopefully he will chime in.

I should have stated earlier concerning my own box, what I currently have is a FirmFeel box also.  Previous owner told me he switched to the firmfeel, he did not know what stage, it was done in mid/late 90s.

And when I talk about "play", it is far from extensive or cumbersome.  When steering wheel is straight up, I have maybe an inch of slop, so in other words, from top center, I move my steering wheel maybe almost 1/2 inch in either direction before the car begins to respond, once past that point, no play.  It is far from bad and of the many similar cars I have driven, I may have amongst the least amount of play, but it is still there.  You get used to it pretty quick.

[ODZKing]

I spoke to S&G at Carlisle as well. In reading the posts about FF, yes the shipping was unbelievable. What I ended up doing was wrapping the old box in about 10 plastic bags and stuffed it into a flat rate USPS box.  Just made it, and they took it!
A few days later I get a call from some place in the west asking what was in it. When I explained what it was they understood but apparently it had leaked and the box was starting to disintegrate.  Oops!
They finally received it and when they called me they said they were amazed that it got to them with the condition of the box.  Oh well.
Bill seems to like his S&G and we are at Carlisle each year ... may just do the same as him and save the shipping for the 73.

[myk]

Why is the SG unit cheaper on shipping?

You guys need to sort this all out so I can decide on which box to buy lol...

[375instroke]

The input shaft moves in and out by design on the power steering box.  That movement actuates a valve to direct pressure to one side of the power piston or the other.  It's by design.  The valve has to move before fluid can be directed to operate the pitman, and that's why you feel play.  Once you're turning, the wheels are pushing back to center, so you won't have any play.  If the car wasn't moving, that same play would be there.  Watch the input shaft of the box when someone moves the wheel back and forth, and you'll see what I'm talking about.  It's inherent to the design.

[familymopar]

The input shaft moves in and out by design on the power steering box.  That movement actuates a valve to direct pressure to one side of the power piston or the other.  It's by design.  The valve has to move before fluid can be directed to operate the pitman, and that's why you feel play.  Once you're turning, the wheels are pushing back to center, so you won't have any play.  If the car wasn't moving, that same play would be there.  Watch the input shaft of the box when someone moves the wheel back and forth, and you'll see what I'm talking about.  It's inherent to the design.

That is a good description and a helpful explanation.  Thanks!