Engine starting problems

[steves66]

OK, having some problems here trying to get my 440 started to break in the cam. I bought a MP electronic ignition kit from Mancini with the orange box. The kit included the distributor, ECU, wiring harness, ballast resistor, Accel plugs, and Accel coil. I got the engine to TDC, made sure that the TDC mark on the dampner was exactly on the 0 mark on the timing tab. Checked that both valves were closed on #1, and also as I was bring #1 up to TDC I stuck my finger in the plug hole to make absolutly sure that it was on the compression stroke. After I primed the motor, I dropped my distributor in, I made a mark on the tower the rotor was pointing to for #1 plug wire. I ran the plug wires following the firing order counter clockwise on the cap. Primed the fuel system to fill the carb bowls. OK heres my problem, when I crank the motor I am getting nothing but "popping", almost like backfiring. I got a pop through the carb once, and then I stopped trying. Didn't want to over crank with the new cam. I rechecked everything. I checked the voltage through the ballast and to the coil. While cranking I have 11.6 volts to the coil and while the key is in the run position I have 7.5 volts to the coil. The orange ECU box is brand new, but I am wondering if it could still be bad??? I came here to ask what I should do next? Any suggestions?

[resq302]

Almost sounds like you have a spark plug wire crossed or your distributor is 180 degrees off.  That is what my charger did when I got it rebuilt and the distributor was 180 out.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve,

Did you fill the fuel bowls up in the carb ? are you sure it's getting gas....or enough of it ? If you're running a mechanical pump it may take a few seconds for it to pick up prime. What i do in that case is to fill the bowls through the vent tubes so that when it fires there's some fuel there to run the engine while the fuelpump does it's thing.

It's possible that the orange box is defective. Have you verified spark ? Try advancing the distributor, slowly, while cranking it over and it will fire once you hit the sweet spot. Once you get it going run as much advance as possible to keep it from overheating.

Ron

[steves66]

Hey Ron, Yes I filled the bowls through the vent tubes until it ran out the sight plugs. Then I pulled the fuel line off the carb and siphoned the fuel all the way up through the in line filter right before it goes into the carb. Got a mouth full too!
I pulled the coil wire off to verify spark, I really couldn't tell much, but it didn't look like a blue spark. I will check again better tonight when I get home. I just pull the coil wire out of the dist, ground it with a screwdriver and crank, correct, or is there a better way to check for spark? Is there a way to check the ECU?
I am positive that I don't have wires crossed or 180 out. I checked and then double checked, because I have heard of so many people having that problem.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve, sounds like you've got a weak spark.  It should be bright blue....not dull orange. There have been a lot of defective orange boxes lately....seems like MP has been using the lowest bidder for their parts and quality is lacking.  I have the same problem on my 70rt....the damn box is melting the resin and leaking down the firewall. 

I've heard a few folks have had good luck with the cheapo "Autozone" replacement boxes.  Check to make sure you've got a good ground and if that doesn't work, swap the box out. Also, have a look at the reluctor gap....it should be .008 for proper operation.

(1) check grounds
(2) check reluctor gap
(3) replace ecu

Hope this helps.

Ron

[resq302]

Also, have a look at the reluctor gap....it should be .008 for proper operation.

(1) check grounds
(2) check reluctor gap
(3) replace ecu

Also, VERY IMPORTANT, when you check the reluctor gap, make sure you use a BRASS feeler gauge otherwise you will magnatize the reluctor and have to replace the reluctor.  I speak from experience.

[steves66]

Thanks guys.
If I have to buy a new box anyway, can I just upgrade to a MSD with the MP electronic dist? If it is a bad ECU, I am hoping that Mancini will make it right. So far they have been real good to me.

[firefighter3931]

Yep, the MSD and MP distributor work very well together. FWIW, everything i've run with an MSD unit has run better as compared to the oem stuff. The multipe spark discharge keeps the plugs super clean and prevents fouling. The idle is noticably cleaner, especially with big cams. I've got a 6al for the 68 and will probably swap out the orange box on the 70 for the same thing. The added bonus of the MSD is that it also eliminates the ballist resistor.

Ron

[sext7366]

Yep I agree MP has almost officially gone to shit...When I bought my car a couple years ago the guy told me he had just switched to the electronic ignition, and that he had to change out the ECU immediatly because it didnt work.  He went with the summit type which are confusing because summit doesn't call the basic unit the orange box, and in fact I think its blue.  Anyway since then I have not changed it all. I wish MP new what kind of business they could have if they kept the quality up, as I would have bought new springs this year, oh well.  I would check the fuel stuff first  you know the simplest solution is usually right.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Since your getting "popping" through the carb, your ignition is working. My guess is that you didn't allow for the fact that the distributor will turn as it engages the cam gear.

Do the finger in the spark plug hole check again to make sure you are on he compression stroke of #1 (front, drivers side cylinder). Make sure you just "bump" the starter as you do this so that you don't go past TDC.

Pull off the distributor cap, and make sure that it is pointing to the wire for #1. For best results, if the timing mark is on TDC, the rotor centerline should be at the 'clockwise' edge of the cap terminal for the #1 cylinder (Imagine looking through a transparent cap to visualize this). I know people that actually have/use cut off caps for indexing, prior to start up.

If you have the plug wires on correctly (1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 counter clockwise), you should be good to go.

[steves66]

I checked all of my grounds last night and verified the spark and I am getting blue spark, so I guess this tells me that the ignition is working. As far as gas, both bowls are full and the line is primed. Everytime I hit the throttle on the carb the gas squirts out like it supposed to, so I am assuming I have plenty of gas. Still nothing but popping. I only got to try it 3 or 4 times, it was getting late. I didn't have any help, so I couldn't turn the dist as I was cranking, so I cranked then turned the dist counter clockwise just a little, cranked, turned, etc.... Nothing but popping, not a bunch of popping. If I would crank for like 7 seconds it would pop 2 of 3 times. Any more help? 

[67_Dodge_Charger]

Get a friend to help you with the adjustment of the distributer as you are cranking the motor.  Recheck your plugs 1–8–4–3–6–5–7–2 Distributor Rotation: Counterclockwise.  Drink some green beer.

good luck

-Robert

[TylerCharger69]

I still think you are 180 out...or else possibly  you have the firing order going clockwise instead of counterclockwise.....when  you line up the timing gear marks.....you actuially  should be on number 6  as opposed to number one  on the distribuitor....when both marks on the gears are facing to the top....(crank gear to the top.....cam gear to the top)   THEN  you'd be on number one.  Also.....this shouldn't make that drastic of a difference....but did you degree that camshaft???

[Chryco Psycho]

advance the timing with the engine at TDC the reluctor & pick up should NOT line up crnak the dist housing clockwise some  & make Sure you firing order is  counterclockwise on the dist cap

[steves66]

Thanks for all your help guys! She's officially now a runner!!! I didn't want to use my new ceramic coated TTI headers because TTI says not to use them for camshaft break-in, it would void the warranty. Anyway I used my old manifolds with 18" of flex exhaust on each side with a set of old mufflers I had. WOW, this beast was LOUD! I might as well not used anything! After about 30 minutes of break-in I went deaf! 

[firefighter3931]

Excellent news Steve !  Post some pics when ya get a chance 

Ron

[steves66]

Excellent news Steve !  Post some pics when ya get a chance 

Ron

I took about 2 minutes of video with my camera. That's all it would do, but I still got some footage of about the last 5 minutes of break-in! I would post but don't know how.

[firefighter3931]

So, how does it sound  Bet you're anxious to take her for a spin 

Send a PM to Kamcuda and he'll host them for ya. 

Congrats on the fireup and cam breakin 


Ron

[steves66]

It sounds wicked! I am in the process of installing my headers and 3" exhaust as we speak. Hopefully it won't take me too long, it has been long overdue. Can't wait to feel the power everyone has told me about the 493 strokers!
I really appreciate all your help/advice over the past 6 months.

[firefighter3931]

Wicked huh....why is that not surprising 

You're welcome on the help, my pleasure. I'll be building the same engine in the future with some minor deviations...i just shared the "recipe" that i cooked up for my own build. Hope ya like it....i'm sure you will ! 

Now get those vids to Kamcuda so we can see and hear the beast....pleeeeeese 


Ron

[steves66]

One of the things that really stood out to me was the responsivness. I had the idle adustment set at about 2300-2500 and I was chopping the throttle the whole 30 minutes. I would just barely touch the throttle and it would jump to 3000 in a millisecond! Very responsive! I didn't want to shut it off after the 30 minutes was up.
I sent a PM to kamkuda asking him to post the vid.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for mailing those Vids to Rob....i'm sure he'll post them soon. 

The much lighter bobweight accounts for the "quick spinning" engine combination....what you've got in there now will RPM like a smallblock. 

Ron