manual or auto - collectible in future generations?

[Mike DC]

   
The Hellcat talk got me thinking - will manuals (in any vintage performance car) continue to be the more sought-after tranny in the future, when younger car guys have basically grown up without them?


Or will it be like manually advancing the spark ignition with a lever, something they once did in the early 1900s but had zero popularity a few decades later? 

Manuals are already a relic in terms of performance today.  Younger kids still have some exposure/access to manuals but that window is closing fast. 

I'm sure manuals will remain an interesting (and probably respected) oddity for a long time to come still . . . but will they be very popular to own & drive if you didn't grow up with them?  Or will it be, "Oh yeah, I've driven a manual once.  Those 20th century guys were real men.  I can't imagine actually trying to drive something fast with a setup like that!" 

[Dans 68]

I believe that a manual will always be more collectible. Comparing shifting by hand to advancing the spark ignition with a lever, well, I don't see it. Stomping on the pedal and grabbing another gear, with the subsequent seat in the pants acceleration and chirping rubber, can't ever be beat. Ever. 

Dan

[ws23rt]

This was actually the last question I had for myself to check off the list when I decided to buy a hellcat.

My answer to myself was to buy what I want (manual trans) and to forget the question of future value as a factor.

I still am interested in other opinions though.   I recall the 60s and 70s and then was not a lot different than today in that gearhead types that want the muscle and the driving fun that comes with it were small in number when compared to the general car buying public.  Thousands of chargers were built and by far the majority were auto trans. This speaks to what the general public wanted. Many wanted a cool looking car that said race car but were not about to put up with a Hemi with 4-10 gears for instance. Some bought them only to find out it was not for them.

That the 4sp cars were rare from the start adds to the fun in this hobby just because they are rare.

This new car is different than those from the past. It is made to do everything.  Even the fuel economy is not so bad. A tough call about the future.

My opinion is and human nature tells me that the manual shift car will be of greater interest forty years from now.  Even if it's more common.

[Mike DC]

      
I dunno.  I wonder if the appeal will really last too many decades longer.

The big difference from the past is that the manuals are truly no longer faster.  Particularly on the street.  And they have lost the fuel-efficiency edge too.  People used to say, "yeah the slushbox is slower and not as efficient, but it's more fun to cruise and it's higher resale too."  Only now, it's the manuals in that position.  

Manuals are getting to be like an old single-shot pistol that must be cocked again each time.  They really don't do anything better than the semi-automatic versions.  Using a single-shot is just giving yourself more work to do for its own sake.  Now that manual trannys are hitting that wall, I'm not sure the manual mistique will continue too far beyond the next generation or so.


Also, transmission gears AT ALL are on the way out in the longer term.  We're looking at CVTs and eventually gas/electric hybrids.  

[ws23rt]

My sense of future collectability is not so much what was the fastest and best at the drags.  By far most of these cars will never even see a drag strip.  Sorta like the super truck that can go everywhere and pull anything with it and is just a go to the store truck. I think the future will be about the times and the market when these were the hot thing. Many will remember all the hype.

In the real world--on the streets today---a race winner is the one that takes the greatest risk.

We bench race these days. Traffic/the law/ common sense/etc. make racing on the road not what it used to be.  Most folks buying these hot cars are not going to the track. They are not going to street race. Those that do push these cars on the street will pay a high price.  Soon will be the first high speed crash video of a hellcat. Or at least what's left. Many Viper owners found the cars limit when they were not ready for it.

For the rest of us, we can enjoy a fun powerful cool car for our selves without need to pass a Corvette at 190mph

[Aero426]

I would not consider an automatic in any of the late model performance cars.   Ever.   Period.   End of story.    Ditto to phony auto sticks or paddles, which are just fancy automatics anyway.  

Porsche has done away with the manual completely in the stripped down GT3 and the Turbo model.  The take rate for manuals on the standard 911 is down to something like 20%.   A guy wrote in my  PCA magazine about his experience picking up his new 911 at the factory.   The factory rep doing the delivery noticed the car and said, "Oh, yours is a manual."    He left out the words, "how quaint", but his look said it all.   Porsche's rationale is, "yes, but it's faster".   And it is.    But there is a faction of owners concerned that the factory has lost their minds about what the essence of Porsche is.   As far as I am concerned, they are right.  

[Indygenerallee]

I would not consider an automatic in any of the late model performance cars.   Ever.   Period.   End of story.    Ditto to phony auto sticks or paddles, which are just fancy automatics anyway.

Sorry, but as much as I love my 5 and 6 speeds this statement is just ridiculous, Tell me why almost every drag car now is a automatic?? More consistent out of the gate every time, I would beg to differ and say that the performance car out of both the stick and auto in 2014 terms is the automatic now years ago I would give it to the stick but to say a car that has a auto is less of a performance car than the stick is just silly.. (less fun.. imo,yes)

[ws23rt]

I would not consider an automatic in any of the late model performance cars.   Ever.   Period.   End of story.    Ditto to phony auto sticks or paddles, which are just fancy automatics anyway.

Sorry, but as much as I love my 5 and 6 speeds this statement is just ridiculous, Tell me why almost every drag car now is a automatic?? More consistent out of the gate every time, I would beg to differ and say that the performance car out of both the stick and auto in 2014 terms is the automatic now years ago I would give it to the stick but to say a car that has a auto is less of a performance car than the stick is just silly.. (less fun.. imo,yes)

I can order my hellcat with the A8 trans. and would know that it's faster in the 1/4 mi. than the 6m.  But I want my car for my driving pleasure and expect to live with it for a long time.  A 1/2 sec potential difference on a 1/4mi track is not even close to being enough to make up for the driving fun I will have with the 6sp.
I wonder how many buyers will make a choice on their purchase based on the potential 1/4 mi times?

I suspect most that chose the auto will do so cause it is easer to drive in traffic.  If their license plate said auto8 than those behind will know they are faster than if the plate said 6sp.

[JB400]

I'm thinking anything with a shifter, regardless of transmission, will be collectable 20+ years down the road.  Regardless, the only reason I see manual trans sticking around is due to tradition.  Automatics have improved considerably within the last 20 years, performance wise.  I thank F1 for this.  They haven't had a manual trans since '91 or '92.  Ever since, it's been a paddle shifted auto.  Ferrari itself, hasn't built a manual trans car since 2012.  With the advent of self driving cars, the days of manual trans cars are numbered anyway.  But, with the traditionalists that enjoy motoring, I think the manual trans will stay collectable for the near future.  It's when tradition no longer matters, that the manual trans will go the way of the manual spark advance.

[Ghoste]

The automatic has been quicker for a long time, decades in fact, and yet the manual is still around.  It's more fun.

[Charger-Bodie]

To me the manual is better and always will be. Not for speed or efficiency ,but fun . I love how the give the driver control and input to the experience . Not to mention that they just look cooler to me with a stick handle between the seats.

[6spd68]

To me the manual is better and always will be. Not for speed or efficiency ,but fun . I love how the give the driver control and input to the experience . Not to mention that they just look cooler to me with a stick handle between the seats.

I Have to agree, even the fastest cars just don't feel as fun in auto. (Too me at least).  Mind you, as a daily driver, I'd take Auto every time.

That's the reason I figure; why not just own both?  Have an automatic for daily abuse, then a stick car for the evenings/weekends.  I know everyone is not so fortunate to have this option, but it's the one I've gone with for the last 8 years. 

[Aero426]

I would not consider an automatic in any of the late model performance cars.   Ever.   Period.   End of story.    Ditto to phony auto sticks or paddles, which are just fancy automatics anyway.

Sorry, but as much as I love my 5 and 6 speeds this statement is just ridiculous, Tell me why almost every drag car now is a automatic?? More consistent out of the gate every time, I would beg to differ and say that the performance car out of both the stick and auto in 2014 terms is the automatic now years ago I would give it to the stick but to say a car that has a auto is less of a performance car than the stick is just silly.. (less fun.. imo,yes)

I'm not talking about a racing environment or what setup is faster.    "Faster" does not guarantee a better driving experience.     It's about DRIVER ENGAGEMENT and FUN.       I do not want the computer to shift for me, except maybe in a snow storm.      

I would never consider an automatic on a late model performance car, when a manual was available.  

[billssuperbird]

 

[HPP]

For collectibility, manual all the way, especially if their numbers are miniscule. Sure, the autos may be an easier sell, but like most things rare, the manual will hold the collectible value batter.

The Nascar boys and a number of GT cars still race with manual transmissions. In the rough and tumble world of local bull rings, the manuals still rule the roost as well.

[Homerr]

I've been suffering with an auto in my DD for the last few years.  I hate it.  Yes, even in traffic.

Manual or bust.

[Mike DC]

I'm not talking about a racing environment or what setup is faster.    "Faster" does not guarantee a better driving experience.     It's about DRIVER ENGAGEMENT and FUN.

It's also sometimes more fun to have a sporty handling car with tires that don't grip too well, so you can explore the limits without getting yourself killed.  But that doesn't persuade buyers & collectors away from preferring big sticky tires that post better track numbers.  Track numbers have a way of overriding the fun factor. 


The 427 Shelby Cobra gets all the press.  But there is a serious argument that the 289 was the more fun car to drive.   

[Cooter]

They can't get four gears to last in cars.....now, there's 8.

[pandamarie]

I have old cars that you still have to manually adjust the advance, manual trans straight cut gears no power steering and manual brakes. They are fun to drive once in a while and draw lots of attention, most people wouldn't know how to start them if I left the keys in them.
For me with as fast as these new cars are getting and as fast as the automatics shift the manual trans will be gone in 10-15 years.
Just like most old cars unless true classics are all getting turned into street rods, when you do see a totally stock old car from the 30,40or 50s they are a true oddity, everyone wants their creature comforts now days.

[hatersaurusrex]

As for collectibility - the lower numbers of the manual will probably make it a hair more collectible.  Even in the classic Mopar world, the 4-speeds are considered more valuable due to their relative scarcity, and they were built 40+ years ago when a car with a stick and no A/C was a pretty normal thing.

Will you be able to sell one for engough money to retire on?  Frankly, I don't see it happening.    60's and 70's muscle cars defined a generation, and went up in value after the oil crisis nearly destroyed them all.    In 20 years we'll all be driving electrics that can zip to 60 in 3 seconds and charge while sitting in the drive thru at starbucks using a tesla coil powered by their coffee grinders.   Nobody's going to look back at the current crop of muscle with the same nostalgia and $$$$ that a Hemi Cuda brings.   They'll be bug-prone gas powered also-rans in a world dominated by completely different modes of transportation, while the originals from the 70's will still be looked at as original badasses.  To me this is a last gasp by American auto makers to recapture something that was once great - and while the newer cars outdo the originals in every conceivable way, they'll never be as cool, and we all know that.  They're just a copy of a legend.

As for me, I'll be getting my Hellcat with an auto.    I don't care much for collector's value - I might be dead in 20 years and it's not like the manual cars are going to be so rare that it'll be a million dollar difference at Mecum or BJ for the above stated reasons.   Also the production numbers (and thus specialized parts) will be low enough that you'd basically need to buy the rarest one you could find and sit on it for 20 years never driving it to make any coin down the road.   Good luck finding an OEM supercharger in 10 years,  or those one-off six piston brembo calipers when they go bad.    Better park it in a barn and wait - nay hope - it's worth 10x what you gave for it some day.


So drive what's fun.   Screw collectibility.   I want to bang-shift on the paddles without worrying about my 'collector's value'.   I just don't like sticks anymore.    As for feeling engaged, there's so much computer overriding and sound matting these days that a stick by itself isn't going to make me feel engaged.  These cars are just too smooth.  I drove my brother's 2013 Wrangler a while back and couldn't believe I was in a Jeep.   It was a stick like my CJ7, but it was quiet and comfortable and smelled nice.   I rowed through the buttery smooth gearbox and heard no road noise as Sirius XM purred quietly in my ear.   It made me sick to drive it - it was a well-mannered and dull copy of a real legend.   If I want to feel engaged, I'll buy something old and noisy that maybe has an AM/FM radio if I'm lucky and rattles a bit when I drive it.   That's engaged.   A stick by itself just won't do that for me.

[myk]

Will you be able to sell one for engough money to retire on?  Frankly, I don't see it happening.    60's and 70's muscle cars defined a generation, and went up in value after the oil crisis nearly destroyed them all.    In 20 years we'll all be driving electrics that can zip to 60 in 3 seconds and charge while sitting in the drive thru at starbucks using a tesla coil powered by their coffee grinders.   Nobody's going to look back at the current crop of muscle with the same nostalgia and $$$$ that a Hemi Cuda brings.   They'll be bug-prone gas powered also-rans in a world dominated by completely different modes of transportation, while the originals from the 70's will still be looked at as original badasses.  To me this is a last gasp by American auto makers to recapture something that was once great - and while the newer cars outdo the originals in every conceivable way, they'll never be as cool, and we all know that.  They're just a copy of a legend.

THIS. 

60's/70's muscle cars call back to a fabled, almost mythical time in automotive history that was thought to have been gone forever.  The current crop of muscle cars is better, stronger in every way but they don't have the history and the emotions that come with that classic generation.  Will some examples of new muscle cars become valuable in the future?  Sure, probably, but will they ever be as singular and revolutionary as the machines from the 60's and the 70s?  I can't predict the future but I'm going to bet NO.  The age of the original muscle car has come and gone, and we're likely not to see anything like that again...

[Mike DC]

 
True collectability is accidental.  Unpredictable.  It cannot be manufactured brand new. 

If everyone knows a new item will be collectible in the future, it probably won't be.

[ws23rt]

Will you be able to sell one for engough money to retire on?  Frankly, I don't see it happening.    60's and 70's muscle cars defined a generation, and went up in value after the oil crisis nearly destroyed them all.    In 20 years we'll all be driving electrics that can zip to 60 in 3 seconds and charge while sitting in the drive thru at starbucks using a tesla coil powered by their coffee grinders.   Nobody's going to look back at the current crop of muscle with the same nostalgia and $$$$ that a Hemi Cuda brings.   They'll be bug-prone gas powered also-rans in a world dominated by completely different modes of transportation, while the originals from the 70's will still be looked at as original badasses.  To me this is a last gasp by American auto makers to recapture something that was once great - and while the newer cars outdo the originals in every conceivable way, they'll never be as cool, and we all know that.  They're just a copy of a legend.

THIS.  

60's/70's muscle cars call back to a fabled, almost mythical time in automotive history that was thought to have been gone forever.  The current crop of muscle cars is better, stronger in every way but they don't have the history and the emotions that come with that classic generation.  Will some examples of new muscle cars become valuable in the future?  Sure, probably, but will they ever be as singular and revolutionary as the machines from the 60's and the 70s?  I can't predict the future but I'm going to bet NO.  The age of the original muscle car has come and gone, and we're likely not to see anything like that again...

I'm with you on this.  The sixties and seventies were a rather different mix for the driving public than today. And we were just starting to get spanked by a new and growing group that wanted to save us from ourselves.
I for one had a great time with muscle cars and the memories are a big part of the fun.
Future collectability of the cars was not a big topic except for a few odd ones that we kids couldn't afford anyway.  We drove the piss out our cars cause that was what they were for.
Another thought is the old cars were simple enough that restoring one is doable and that is a big part of the hobby.
I suspect that a "barn find" of a 2015 hellcat forty years from now would be a tough haul to bring back to new condition.  I do know that my hellcat will only be put in a barn for me after I had my way with it

[1974dodgecharger]

So u guys r saying that everyone who has a first year new charger/challenger with 1000 miles in it from 2006/2007 those cars r not worth 500k as they predicted?

[dual fours]

You should be asking a 10 year old this question, they will be the ones buying the current crop of muscle cars in the year 2044.
If I wanted fun, I'd drive a stick, but if I wanted to be first to that next light I'd use my warmed over 727.
I would not have traded my auto. for a stick back in the day, one hand on the wheel, one on the 727's shifter handle, one foot on the gas and one foot for the brake. Street racing at it's best in the 70's & 80's, you had to be there.