Hotchkis Sway Bar / TVS Users: HELP

[familymopar]

Ok, so after contemplating gutting my suspension for a while, and then a while longer of collecting parts on the living room floor, it is done.  But not without issues.

So I didn't do a whole TVS system.  I did Hotchkis sub frame connectors, Hotchkis front and rear sway bars, Hotchkis torsion bars, and Hotchkis (Fox) shocks.  I paired that with Firmfeel upper control arms, strut rods, ties rods, a front end rebuild with all poly bushings.  I did not do leafs because mine were about 10 year old MP 1" drop springs that I thought were in pretty good shape.

Once all of the above was complete the car drove great.  I was really excited.  As a matter of fact, I immediately felt limited by my 235-60-15 Radial T/A's.  But though it drove great, I noticed two things right off the bat.  1) the car now had a lean on the driver's side, 1" front and rear when measured, and 2) that front sway bar is so low.  I have hit my headers on some steeper gas station drives before, and the sway bar is definitely lower.

We took another look at those leaf springs I had not replaced.  Though I was skeptical, it was the general opinion that they were causing the lean.  The driver's side leafs seemed to be "separating" some.  So I bit the bullet and ordered the Hotchkis 1" drop leafs.  Once they were on the lean was indeed gone.  Sat perfectly even.  However, the leafs compounded the sway bar problem.

Those 1" drop leafs (that replaced my 1" drop MP leafs) dropped the rear of the car at least an additional two inches.  Ok, the front of the car had to be lowered to bring it back to how it should look.  Honestly, I LOVE the lowered look of the car now.  I think it looks great.  But it is a drastic difference for going from 1" drop leafs to 1" drop leafs.  

So now the car sits even and is sitting at a great looking height, the highest height obtainable on those springs.  But that sway bar is now about 4 inches off the ground.  I can not go over speed bumps and can not even get on my driveway without hitting.

I think that we can take the brackets off the old MP leafs and use them with the new Hotchkis leafs and maybe gain an inch, but that will not do much to solve the problem, and again, I do love the current look.  So I need to deal with the sway bar.  One thing that came to mind was whether I have the front sway on correctly, and if I do, if it can be switched upside down.

The front sway as I have it has a dip in it towards the ground in the middle.  It reads "Hotchkis" the correct direction.  I am wondering if I can flip it over, where Hotchkis reads upside down, and make that dip go upwards.  I am not positive there is even room to do it, but I think there is.  That or fab some lower profile brackets maybe.  And my approx. 26.3" tire could go up some with a new tire and wheel set I suppose, but not that much.  I'd need to over 28" to grab an inch in height.

Has anyone had similar problems?  With the Hotckis materials, my car is as high as I can get it (without having the front end higher than the rear, anyway).  So I figure someone else has to have run into this.  Thoughts?

If y'all did not have this issue, what total diameter tires are you running?  Did anyone install the front bar where "Hotchkis" reads upside down?

In the pics below, the first two are the car on a lift after everything was done but before the leaf install.  The last picture is everything done, including leafs.  That bar is very, very low.

[Troy]

I believe most of the ones I've seen installed have the lettering upside down.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=76474.0
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=110280.0

Troy

[familymopar]

I believe most of the ones I've seen installed have the lettering upside down. Let me look around...

Troy

That would explain a lot and I appreciate any info.  Would still seem too low but would definitely be a big help.  If that is the case, that the lettering should be upside down, then I wonder if it should be that way on the rear as well?  And why the heck would Hotchkis design it to be read upside down?

[bill440rt]

The bar is upside down. Flip it around (hump goes over K-frame bracket).
Order another decal from Hotchkis so it reads correctly.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

That would explain a lot and I appreciate any info.  Would still seem too low but would definitely be a big help.  If that is the case, that the lettering should be upside down, then I wonder if it should be that way on the rear as well?  And why the heck would Hotchkis design it to be read upside down?

Rear bar is correct, it sits low but not enough to interfere with anything.

Flipping the bar should help with any contact issues. The bar can be installed either way so the decals are just thrown on. My 69 is lower than Hotchkis recommends and with the hump over the k member bracket I have never hit the sway bar on anything. Headers is another story though  

[MSRacing89]

I believe most of the ones I've seen installed have the lettering upside down. Let me look around...

Troy

That would explain a lot and I appreciate any info.  Would still seem too low but would definitely be a big help.  If that is the case, that the lettering should be upside down, then I wonder if it should be that way on the rear as well?  And why the heck would Hotchkis design it to be read upside down?

I believe the instructions actually tell you to install in it with the loop down.  We NEVER ran it that way, very dangerous.  Flip it over and you will be fine.  Even the Hotchkis B-body has it flipped, as he was bouncing it off the ground as some of the events we were at.  Leave the rear bar as is.

Oh.  Don't expect the grease fittings to last very long!!  Mine have sheered off at least twice now.

[myk]

Congratulations on your upgrades!  As for having to dread speed-bumps and scraping the ground, it just comes with the territory of having a car that is intended to handle.  All of my 90's muscle cars and now my Hotchkis equipped Charger will scrape some speed-bumps and what not unless I take it at the proper angle.  Oh, and I know you're still debating wheels and tires, but going to a wider wheel diameter will complete your upgrades...

[familymopar]

Congratulations on your upgrades!  As for having to dread speed-bumps and scraping the ground, it just comes with the territory of having a car that is intended to handle.  All of my 90's muscle cars and now my Hotchkis equipped Charger will scrape some speed-bumps and what not unless I take it at the proper angle.  Oh, and I know you're still debating wheels and tires, but going to a wider wheel diameter will complete your upgrades...

Thanks myk, and for being one of those talking me into it!  You were right, as was everyone else, it is night and day and well worth doing.  I had driven the car less than 15 minutes before I had absolutely decided to upgrade wheels and tires.  Now is the tough part, which ones!  I am back to debating between 17"s and 18"s, but I intend to have new wheels and tires sooner rather than later.  It clearly must be done.

As the bar was, it wasn't a matter of scraping speed bumps and such.  A normal speed bump would have ripped the thing apart.  I mean, it was really sitting low.  Thanks to the advice here, I have flipped it over and all is better.  Now I need to be careful over speed bumps, but I will make it!

See photos, and thanks to all for the input!

I flipped the front bar and it is much better.  I flipped over the decal as well.  I left the rear alone although I had it on its tightest fitting and I put it on its loosest, where I think is better but I am open to input.

Still low, but very do-able now.  And new wheels and tires still may give me a half inch or so.

[familymopar]

I forgot to add the photos...

[familymopar]

That would explain a lot and I appreciate any info.  Would still seem too low but would definitely be a big help.  If that is the case, that the lettering should be upside down, then I wonder if it should be that way on the rear as well?  And why the heck would Hotchkis design it to be read upside down?

Rear bar is correct, it sits low but not enough to interfere with anything.

Flipping the bar should help with any contact issues. The bar can be installed either way so the decals are just thrown on. My 69 is lower than Hotchkis recommends and with the hump over the k member bracket I have never hit the sway bar on anything. Headers is another story though   

White and Red 69 - I have been smacking my headers on everything since I put them on, and that was with the car sitting much higher.  I will just have to be more careful now, as myk said, its the price you pay!

I believe most of the ones I've seen installed have the lettering upside down. Let me look around...

Troy

That would explain a lot and I appreciate any info.  Would still seem too low but would definitely be a big help.  If that is the case, that the lettering should be upside down, then I wonder if it should be that way on the rear as well?  And why the heck would Hotchkis design it to be read upside down?

I believe the instructions actually tell you to install in it with the loop down.  We NEVER ran it that way, very dangerous.  Flip it over and you will be fine.  Even the Hotchkis B-body has it flipped, as he was bouncing it off the ground as some of the events we were at.  Leave the rear bar as is.

Oh.  Don't expect the grease fittings to last very long!!  Mine have sheered off at least twice now.

MSRacing89, I imagine these are the fittings you are talking about!  I flipped the bar and on the maiden drive back up my driveway I lost them.  I am going to figure out something else to do because I was very careful coming up the drive, that has no incline just a bump from the flat street to the flat drive.  I can put them on as many times as I like and they will never make it over that bump.  The driveway is seriously a little bump, smaller than any speed bumps around here.  They are just not going to work, unless I want to keep the Charger in the street.  Which is not happening.

Again, thanks to all!!!  And thanks Troy for the quick chime in, as soon as I saw the GL on the other thread I left the office and went home to deal with it. hence so long responding back to everyone.

I am going to try to post before and after pics to see the height difference, although I don't think the photos illustrate it near as well as trying to get under it.

[myk]

Hey what headers are you running?

[familymopar]

Hey what headers are you running?

I am running Doug's (Petronix) full length headers.  2" primaries and 3.5" collectors into a 2.5" system with x-pipes and cut-outs.  The Doug's part is D452.  Here is a link to the headers:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dou-d452

[familymopar]

Before and after...

[1974dodgecharger]

[dangina]

curious, are you running stock torsion bars?

[familymopar]

curious, are you running stock torsion bars?

I am running Hotchkis 1.03" torsion bars.

[bill440rt]

curious, are you running stock torsion bars?

I am running Hotchkis 1.03" torsion bars.

Familymopar, when did you purchase your torsion bars?
I ask as Hotchkis recently changed them to 1.10". The 1.10" bars replaced the 1.03"s a couple years ago.
I just went thru this. I've purchased their shocks & torsion bars, & I'm only one step away from their upper control arms to start installing these goodies.
Their website states they are 1.10" bars, but when I got them the box label stated 1.03". I called Hotchkis to question this. Seems they never changed their box labels.  

The differences are:
1) The 1.10" bars will be powdercoated (vs painted).
2) The logo will be silk screened on (vs decal).
3) The instruction insert also states they are 1.10" bars.

Just thought you'd like to know. Better check those bars! 

[myk]

Hey what headers are you running?

I am running Doug's (Petronix) full length headers.  2" primaries and 3.5" collectors into a 2.5" system with x-pipes and cut-outs.  The Doug's part is D452.  Here is a link to the headers:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dou-d452

How good of a fit are those headers?

[familymopar]

curious, are you running stock torsion bars?

I am running Hotchkis 1.03" torsion bars.

Familymopar, when did you purchase your torsion bars?
I ask as Hotchkis recently changed them to 1.10". The 1.10" bars replaced the 1.03"s a couple years ago.
I just went thru this. I've purchased their shocks & torsion bars, & I'm only one step away from their upper control arms to start installing these goodies.
Their website states they are 1.10" bars, but when I got them the box label stated 1.03". I called Hotchkis to question this. Seems they never changed their box labels.  

The differences are:
1) The 1.10" bars will be powdercoated (vs painted).
2) The logo will be silk screened on (vs decal).
3) The instruction insert also states they are 1.10" bars.

Just thought you'd like to know. Better check those bars!  

bill440rt,

Thanks for the heads up!  I just looked at all the sites and Classic Industries, where I bought them, still list them as 1.03":

http://www.classicindustries.com/product/mopar/parts/h19367.html

So I went over to the Hotchkis site and they do now list them, under the same part number, as 1.1" bars but I am certain that just a couple months ago when I ordered them the Hotchkis site still said 1.03":

http://www.hotchkis.net/forged_torsion_bars_be_body_models.html

Ironically, I chose the Hotchkis bars over the Firm Feel's because I thought (have been told) that 1.06 may just be a bit too stiff, but I wanted more than 1", so the Hotchkis was the compromise at 1.03":

http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_torsion_bars.html

So I just went out to the car, which is back on the ground and very low.  I can't really tell if the bars are painted or powder coated, although they feel painted to me, for what that's worth.  The Hotchkis logo definitely does not feel like a decal though.  And like I said, I only ordered these 2 or 3 months ago.  Maybe I do have 1.1" bars on there!  If so, then my original reasoning was no good, because they feel great to me!

Thanks for the info!

[familymopar]

Hey what headers are you running?

I am running Doug's (Petronix) full length headers.  2" primaries and 3.5" collectors into a 2.5" system with x-pipes and cut-outs.  The Doug's part is D452.  Here is a link to the headers:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dou-d452

How good of a fit are those headers?

They are a good fit.  I would buy them again if I needed new headers.  And they look great.  They are a real pain to get on, but they end up fitting just fine, for me anyway.  I wish I had taken install pictures, although they would be blurry from beer and cursing.  I am happy to take some photos of them on now if you would like....

[familymopar]

Hey what headers are you running?

I am running Doug's (Petronix) full length headers.  2" primaries and 3.5" collectors into a 2.5" system with x-pipes and cut-outs.  The Doug's part is D452.  Here is a link to the headers:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dou-d452

How good of a fit are those headers?

They are a good fit.  I would buy them again if I needed new headers.  And they look great.  They are a real pain to get on, but they end up fitting just fine, for me anyway.  I wish I had taken install pictures, although they would be blurry from beer and cursing.  I am happy to take some photos of them on now if you would like....

myk, I forgot to mention my only real disappointment with the headers.  The headers themselves fit and look good. But I really want to do a fast ratio pitman/idler set up on the car.  But that set up will not work with these headers.

[fy469rtse]

Myk
to big for yours my friend, 2 Inch primarys, 3.5 inch collectors, these run under steering linkages I'm guessing ? , that puts them closer to ground because they have to run lower than normal to clear steering ,
i would only look at these for drag racing purposes only, not pratical for bumps and stuff of normal driving,
could you guys post a phot side on to show how low they hang
Myk, you do what i did , buy the uncoated set 1 7/8 primarys, tried the 2 inch on dyno with little differance, find an exhaust place willing to do a liitle work to them , i found plugs six and five to be an issue, i also modified pipes around steering box and worked more clearance around the starter motor, once your happy with fit , there taken back out fully welded and the you can do your choice of coatings,
but in saying all this, if you dont have the means to do it , it will cost, so save you penny's and put a Set of TTI's on , end of story, the best fit bar none 

[familymopar]

Myk
to big for yours my friend, 2 Inch primarys, 3.5 inch collectors, these run under steering linkages I'm guessing ? , that puts them closer to ground because they have to run lower than normal to clear steering ,
i would only look at these for drag racing purposes only, not pratical for bumps and stuff of normal driving,
could you guys post a phot side on to show how low they hang
Myk, you do what i did , buy the uncoated set 1 7/8 primarys, tried the 2 inch on dyno with little differance, find an exhaust place willing to do a liitle work to them , i found plugs six and five to be an issue, i also modified pipes around steering box and worked more clearance around the starter motor, once your happy with fit , there taken back out fully welded and the you can do your choice of coatings,
but in saying all this, if you dont have the means to do it , it will cost, so save you penny's and put a Set of TTI's on , end of story, the best fit bar none 

As requested, some side shots.  I added a can in there for perspective.  The headers are probably 1/2" lower than the sway bar bracket now.  If I still had my zerk fittings, I think the bottom of the zerk would be just about where the bottoms of the headers are.

I get up the drive just fine, have gone into some parking lots with a nice grade drive without problems.  On steeper grade drives I have always hit my headers so I am sure I will whack them good now.  Haven't needed to cross a speed bump yet but I suspect I will scrape them.  And I have maybe 2 mm clearance between the header and the torsion bar.

See pics:

[myk]

Wow that is loa.  Looks awesome though!

[bill440rt]

Familymopar, good pics. I can tell those are the 1.10" bars, they also started printing the part number & L/R on them. Those are not decals on yours.
Good to know, I have them sitting here waiting in the box, my box is also marked 1.03" & the instructions state 1.10". Hotchkis did confirm they were the 1.10"s. Hopefully I can order the control arms soon & start swapping out.

BTW, as a TTI user I can attest they do not hang nearly as low. 

[familymopar]

Familymopar, good pics. I can tell those are the 1.10" bars, they also started printing the part number & L/R on them. Those are not decals on yours.
Good to know, I have them sitting here waiting in the box, my box is also marked 1.03" & the instructions state 1.10". Hotchkis did confirm they were the 1.10"s. Hopefully I can order the control arms soon & start swapping out.

BTW, as a TTI user I can attest they do not hang nearly as low. 

bill440rt,

I can't wait to see pics of your charger after the suspension changes.  I would like to see how low your TTI's get afterwards.  If it is significantly higher than mine I may try to swap them also.

Did you get, or are you planning to get, the Hotchkis rear leafs?  That is what forced me so low...

[bill440rt]

Me too! 

Actually, where the ride height of the front of my car is set right now isn't too far off from what I've seen with other members' cars with the Hotchkis bars. My front end is set on the low side, with stock 383 bars. Hotchkis stated I should have no problem returning it to where it is now.
I like the ride height of the rear now with the MP springs, so they are staying. The rear spring rate should still work well with the front mods, according to Hotchkis. They said the biggest improvements come from their sway bars and shocks. After that torsion bars & upper control arms (for a better alignment).
The TTI's are the lowest at the collectors on my car, looks like yours are lowest at the primary tubes. 

[familymopar]

Me too! 

Actually, where the ride height of the front of my car is set right now isn't too far off from what I've seen with other members' cars with the Hotchkis bars. My front end is set on the low side, with stock 383 bars. Hotchkis stated I should have no problem returning it to where it is now.
I like the ride height of the rear now with the MP springs, so they are staying. The rear spring rate should still work well with the front mods, according to Hotchkis. They said the biggest improvements come from their sway bars and shocks. After that torsion bars & upper control arms (for a better alignment).
The TTI's are the lowest at the collectors on my car, looks like yours are lowest at the primary tubes. 

I have been trying to figure out a reliable way to measure how far the headers hang as opposed to how far off the ground they are.  As our cars are, presumably, at different heights with different suspension components, how far your TTI's are off the ground will only help so much.  But if I could get an idea how far they actually hang, that would be instructive on whether I should consider the switch from Doug's to TTI's.

[1974dodgecharger]

Wow that is loa.  Looks awesome though!

I thought that was pretty normal? with hothckis and headers....that's how low mine sits.

[myk]

I'm still running stock manifolds so I wouldn't know any better.  I guess I'll be dealing with that as well if I decide on headers...

[familymopar]

Wow that is loa.  Looks awesome though!

I thought that was pretty normal? with hothckis and headers....that's how low mine sits.

I really don't know.  It is very low but it is ok, it is not my daily driver.  But if Bill is correct, and I can gain an inch or 2 out of TTI's, it may be worth considering the switch.

I'm still running stock manifolds so I wouldn't know any better.  I guess I'll be dealing with that as well if I decide on headers...

You know, it's been a while, but after I did my headers I saw all kinds of info on the stock manifolds providing just as much flow and power possibilities as aftermarket headers.  I like the looks of headers and all, but I suppose I would also consider going back to stock manifolds if the height were to prove to be too much of a problem, which I doubt.

[myk]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

[familymopar]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

Yes they do.  I would not say that the sound difference I heard was overwhelming.  But it does sound better.  Unfortunately, when I did the headers I also did the full exhaust, x pipe, cut-outs all at the same time.  So I don't really have a very good idea of the difference only the headers would have made.

I admit that I think they look sweet too, especially from under the car.

[myk]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

Yes they do.  I would not say that the sound difference I heard was overwhelming.  But it does sound better.  Unfortunately, when I did the headers I also did the full exhaust, x pipe, cut-outs all at the same time.  So I don't really have a very good idea of the difference only the headers would have made.

I admit that I think they look sweet too, especially from under the car.

Electronic cut-outs?  I'm planning the exact same exhaust setup as yours...

[familymopar]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

Yes they do.  I would not say that the sound difference I heard was overwhelming.  But it does sound better.  Unfortunately, when I did the headers I also did the full exhaust, x pipe, cut-outs all at the same time.  So I don't really have a very good idea of the difference only the headers would have made.

I admit that I think they look sweet too, especially from under the car.

Electronic cut-outs?  I'm planning the exact same exhaust setup as yours...

Yes.  I used Doug's electric cut outs and ran the switch up into the console.  Used he Pypes 2.5" x-pipe.  I am really happy with it.

[Brass]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

I think that is subjective.  Personally, I think manifolds can create a deeper sound.  Headers are distinctive but seem to have a more tinny/treble quality.

[familymopar]

But the SOUND of those headers.  They do sound better than manifolds, right?

I think that is subjective.  Personally, I think manifolds can create a deeper sound.  Headers are distinctive but seem to have a more tinny/treble quality.

No doubt about it being subjective.  I love the sound with the manifolds.  I love the sound now, but again, I am not sure now much to attribute to the headers alone.  The manifolds can sound excellent though.

[myk]

So I get this notice that Hotchkis is running a 20% off sale for summer.  I whipped out my credit card, ready to lay down some virtual cash when I remembered that Hotchkis' prices are much higher than dealers like Summit, Jegs, etc.  Now, if that 20% off would apply to THOSE prices?