First start up, backfiring - FIXED

[b5blue]

Woot! Woot!   

[Dino]

Hey guess what wouldn't start this morning!   

I put the ignition switch back in, boltesd the column in place, cranked it and nothing.  I measure the battery and it's at 12.2.  Down from 13.8 last night and I had the battery disconnected.

Back to Autozone, but this time they'll have to give me a new one, this one has to be done for to lose that much juice no?

[firefighter3931]

Yep, sounds like the battery is pooched....no way it should drop like that overnight ! 

At least you now know what the problem is 



Ron

[Back N Black]

I think the 13.8 was the surface charge after battery was charged and it is normal to have a drop over night. Hopefully when you return the battery they will recharge and do the proper load test. Good luck.

[Dino]

Well I changed it for another although they said it was good.  I just came home, measured it and it's at 12.5.  This is getting to be a little annoying.

I put the charger on it, it's at 60%.  I do hope that this time it'll be fixed, I'd like to do something else but look at it in the garage.  

Yesterday I let the battery get charged up to 80% or so.  I guess I need to let it go to 100%?  Will it have enough juice left after that?

It's making me a bit nervous that the car will not start with 12.5V. 

[firefighter3931]

Let it charge to 100% and start the car up.  I've checked lots of "new" batteries and none have ever been fully charged. 

How low do you have the idle ? I like to keep them at 800 in gear to keep the oil splashing and the alternator spinning fast enough. A low idle speed will cause a discharge condition. 

FWIW, you should have a descent quality battery that is rated at least 750cca 



Ron

[Dino]

Let it charge to 100% and start the car up.  I've checked lots of "new" batteries and none have ever been fully charged. 

How low do you have the idle ? I like to keep them at 800 in gear to keep the oil splashing and the alternator spinning fast enough. A low idle speed will cause a discharge condition. 

FWIW, you should have a descent quality battery that is rated at least 750cca 



Ron

It hit the 90% mark and I couldn't wait so I hooked it up.    

The car started almost immediately and then died with a small pop in the carb.  I fired it back up and advanced the dizzy and the rpm went up so I kept turning and it kept going up while the idle started getting smooth as it should.  I thought aha that's why it idled so rough!  I had to shut the car off because I noticed some smoke coming from the back of the driver's side header.  Turns out the tape around the neutral safety switch wiring was starting to melt it was so close.  The vacuum hose running from the canister to the intake manifold was also real close and damn hot.  I'm letting it cool down so I can reroute everything away from the header and then I'll continue.

Seeing I turned the dizzy so far already, I guess it explains why it idled crappy and likely why it got so hot so fast.

The battery is a 750cca.   

[Dino]

Alrighty we're back in business.  I took it out for it's first trip in almost a year and it performed just fine.   

All I did was advance the dizzy until the rpm stopped rising and I backed it back off a bit.  Since I don't have a timing light yet I'm going to take it to my mechanic so he can set timing, adjust the carb, and check the new leak at the axle.  I'm also having him torque everything I touched.  With so many little projects over such a period of time, I just don't trust myself and I want a pro to go over everything.

When I adjusted the dizzy the rpm went up so high that it has a fairly high idle right now.  The idle set screw is backed all the way out but it's still too high but I'm not messing with the carb when the timing is not set. 

I have to say, for a car that still needs to be tuned it ran extremely well, I was shocked at how responsive it was.  Two thumbs up for Firecore!   

No starting issues anymore either, it fires up immediately.

For the first time I seem to have a functioning fuel gauge as well but time will tell, I still have to top it off.

[firefighter3931]

Nice...glad to hear it's getting ironed out ! 

When you take it in have the mechanic set the total timing to 38* at 3000 rpm and recheck the base timing. It should have around 20* at idle. What you did was give the engine what it wants....lots of initial timing. Big cams like lots of spark lead and once you get that right the engine becomes more responsive and idles much better. 

Once the timing is dialed in have the idle mixture/idle speed dialed in and you will be good to go 



Ron

[71 SE3834V]

Thanks for the help felllas, cold beers on me and no expiration on that offer.   

Just for that I'll have to show up at Carlisle next year.

Well I'm baaack! Hope you got it ironed out Dino!
You driving next year? 

[Dino]

Thanks for the help felllas, cold beers on me and no expiration on that offer.   

Just for that I'll have to show up at Carlisle next year.

Well I'm baaack! Hope you got it ironed out Dino!
You driving next year? 

Tell you what, I'll try to find out asap if I can go or not and if I do then I'll drive.


I took the car to the shop last week because so much details needed to be addressed and I was getting burned out on it.  I really pushed to get all the work done so I could enjoy the car a bit this year but because I did all the work over a period of a year, I started to doubt myself on certain things.  Did I do this, did I tighten that?  There's a small village with a small mechanics shop we take our dailies to.  He has a Dart with a 440 he runs on the track so I figured he'd know what to do with my car.  Turns out he owned a 70 track pack R/T and he had the pics to prove it.   

For the first time ever the exhaust no longer leaks and the tips are straight.  The rear axle pinion seal was busted so that was replaced, driver's side engine mount was replaced and had a torque chain added.  That alone solved a few issues that I did not know where because of a bad mount.  The old mount was ripped in half.  My throttle cable bracket was a mess as it was a small block bracket on an Edelbrock manifold and a TQ carb so instead of me looking for parts that fit I asked him to cut it and raise it, which he did and now everything is smooth as butter.  It's funny how the little things can bring such joy.   

The brakes have also been adjusted, which is when we found the damaged hub but that's replaced now.  The car stops way better but the panic stop is still not what it needs to be.  It's likely normal how it is now, but I want it to stop like a modern car so I'll need to save up for discs all around.  Still, in city traffic it stops just perfect so at least I can drive it. 

All the leaks were fixed but the rear of the passenger side valve cover started leaking again.  It runs onto the header so I have blue smoke coming up.  The bolts are pretty tight so I may just add some ultra copper between gasket and head.  I already have a bead between cover and gasket.

The fuels smell is way better than before.  When I got it back I hooked up the vacuum gauge and it reads 15 at dile which is about the best I've had with the purple cam.  I couldn't get it any higher messing with the carb.

Total timing was set to 35 as it seemed to like it best but I forgot to ask him what base timing is set at.  He told me to drive the car a bit and come back for any adjustment.

Yesterday I took it for a spin and decided to hook up the vacuum advance, ported, but it didn't seem to do much.  The engine purrs and cruises beautifully but it won't start up as it should.  I have not tried since I hooked up the advance but yesterday morning I had to crank it several times before it fired, even later when  it was warm it took a while.  After that it would turn over immediately as long as it was hot.  Mind you, I don't have a choke because I have the crossover blocked but it used to start up easier that this.  Could this still be timing related?  I don't have any pinging or hear/feel anything out of the ordinary.

Once this small leak is fixed I should be all set.  The alternator seems to do its job as well as I can now have my wipers on low when idling.   

[myk]

Don't you already have disc brakes up front?

[Dino]

Don't you already have disc brakes up front?

I own a front disc kit but it's not installed.  It's the old Wilwood 10.75" kit, it came with the car.  It's not my first choice but its free, I'm just not up for doing the install because the distribution block is so hard to reach.


Since I don't care as much about performance anymore, I wonder what more can be done to eliminate the fuel smell.  When I step on the gas it's pretty apparent.  Closed air filter system, maybe?  Can I maybe get rid of the valve cover breather and have a second pcv valve to run to the carb?

It's sometimes hard to find understanding here and from my mechanic when I say this, but it really does not matter how fast it goes in the quarter, it matters that I can take my wife out for a cruise without her choking down fumes.  Heck I'm used to it and don't want it anymore.  I don't care if it loses 20 hp, I need it to stop stinking so any tips are welcome, short of installing a modern drive train.

When I'm working as a PA, a modern drive train may be in the books, at least EFI to keep the stench down but for now that won't be a possibility.

[Dino]

Well I don't know about you guys but I'm tired of this, now it won't start again.  I get plenty of fuel but I don't seem to get a spark.  This is driving me up the friggin' wall.

Just went out and tried again but nothing, the car cranks and cranks but will not start, not even try.  I measured the brand new battery again and it's down to 12.3 once more.  This is really driving me crazy.  Is this normal, is the alternator not doing its job?  Is there something wrong with the coil?  Should this car not start with 12.3V ??

I hooked up my little battery charger and it says it's down to around 30% again.  I'll let it sit and see if it starts later.  If it does, then I know what the issue is but don't know how to fix it.

[71 SE3834V]

Well I don't know about you guys but I'm tired of this, now it won't start again.  I get plenty of fuel but I don't seem to get a spark.  This is driving me up the friggin' wall.

You say you don't seem to be getting spark but do you know that?
It needs to be diagnosed to find out why it's not starting. Test to see if it has spark. Seems to me if the battery has the power to crank the engine it should fire the coil unless power is being interupted to the coil which is why we suggested running a hot wire straight to the coil. Again, I don't know anything about the Firecore.
Can't remember, did you do a voltage check while cranking? Again, all this is a moot point if you have good spark.

[Dino]

I tried running a lead from battery to coil last time which didn't work either.  I ended up returning the battery for another, charged it up at home and the car fired right up.  After tuning it would start up every time but sometimes it would take a while, especially when cold.  Today it cranks as if there's plenty juice and it's easy enough to flood the carb, but it won't fire up.  I have the battery on charge again.  Something tells me it'll start when the battery is fully charged but then we're just going into this loop where it'll start worse and worse.  I sure hope the alt is not busted.

What's a good way to look for spark from the coil?  ie one where I don't burn my fingers.   

Btw, I took my old snow thrower apart, cleaned it all up, rerouted the coil wires, and it fired right up so at least I have something to go to a show with.   

How's your ride coming along? 

[71 SE3834V]

I tried running a lead from battery to coil last time which didn't work either.  I ended up returning the battery for another, charged it up at home and the car fired right up.  After tuning it would start up every time but sometimes it would take a while, especially when cold.  Today it cranks as if there's plenty juice and it's easy enough to flood the carb, but it won't fire up.  I have the battery on charge again.  Something tells me it'll start when the battery is fully charged but then we're just going into this loop where it'll start worse and worse.  I sure hope the alt is not busted.

You ran a hot wire to coil and it didn't start but you still don't know if it was sparking then. Have you contacted Ron about the voltage needs of the firecore?
Maybe flooding is the problem. I think someone suggested checking if the plugs are wet.

What's a good way to look for spark from the coil?  ie one where I don't burn my fingers.   

Usually pull the coil wire at the cap and hold the terminal close to engine ground (careful of fumes), crank engine w/key on (easier with a remote start button), look for blue spark. White or yellow is weak.

Btw, I took my old snow thrower apart, cleaned it all up, rerouted the coil wires, and it fired right up so at least I have something to go to a show with.   

Your set for next winter.

How's your ride coming along? 

3 bolts from yanking the engine. Should be coming out Friday. I've got to put together my engine lift & stand. Gotta go get to work.
Maybe I could come out this weekend, bring some stuff and see if we can get this figured out.

[Dino]

Thanks for the offer, I wouldn't mind a hand and it would be great to meet you!   

If you need a hand with your car I can come over your way as well.  I'd come over to your place this weekend if the car would at least start, but it doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.  I'd be happy to come help out, I'll just have to drive my daily.

I charged the battery until the charger said it was at 100% but I didn't check the voltage.  The car still didn't start.  After some trying I measured it at 12.5V.  I hook up the charger again and it reads around 40%.  Wth?  I let it sit on the charger for about 15 minutes and it's up to 100% again.  Weird.  I remove the charger and measure the battery, it's around 13.04 and dropping.  I crank it a few more times and the battery is down to 12.45 again.  Now I do think the car should start with that, the starter spins easily, but I'm not understanding the battery readings.

I connected a lead from battery + to coil + and no change, the car just won't fire.  And to think I drove it all over the place yesterday.

I'm starting to wonder if it's the coil, I still have the big yellow accell coil, but I can't run that with this system if I recall.  I haven't tried looking for coil spark, which I'm almost sure is absent, but I'll do so as soon as I get a helper.

[Dino]

I was reading what Heavyfuel posted here about vacuum advance:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,112260.0.html  and decided to do this on my own car.  I figured it wouldn't hurt, besides I carry a few vacuum caps in my console so it's easily reverted.  I had vacuum advance to ported so I disconnected the hose at the dizzy and ran the new line from the dizzy to the manifold vacuum.  Since I haven't charged the A/C yet I used the nipple for that line, I'll have to get a new nipple or a splitter to have both on there.  I know it has nothing to do with my issue but I decided to go turn the key anyway and the damn thing fired right up!  It didn't take more than half a turn of the starter and it ran.  I was so perplexed I didn't feather it and let it die.  And no, it won't start any more now.   

I forgot to remove the short hose from the carb and cover the nipple so did that and tried to start again but no go.  Again, one has likely nothing to do with the other so why the heck did this thing fire up all of a sudden so it could refuse to do so less than a minute later?

I do feel better knowing that it did not start with the lead directly to coil and it now did start without that lead.  My worst fear was having to dig into that electrical again, but that seems to be in order.  Not that I rules it out, but it's unlikely the culprit.   

[Dino]

I didn't quite know what to do with the lead going from coil to dizzy seeing the metal clamp is deep in the rubber boot so I ended up removing plug #7.  I stuck it back in the plug wire boot and held the tip against one of the valve cover bolts.  While cranking I got a small spark which is part blue, part orange.  I have the car nose first in the garage on a sunny day and I have one side window next to the driver's side door to give you an idea of the light in there.  It is fairly dark under the hood and I can see the spark easily, it's just small and doesn't seem as blue as it should be maybe.  I tried this once more with the lead going from battery to coil and had the same result.  Any ideas?

[firefighter3931]

How is the battery voltage Dirk ? Last time you had these issues it was a weak battery 

If you have spark at the plugs the ignition system is working but might not have enough voltage due to a weak battery. 



Ron

[Dino]

How is the battery voltage Dirk ? Last time you had these issues it was a weak battery 

If you have spark at the plugs the ignition system is working but might not have enough voltage due to a weak battery. 



Ron

It's around 12.5 now.  And that's the new battery.  I had it on the charger for several hours but it always comes back to 12.5v after cranking for a while.  The one time it did fire up the battery was at exactly 12.5v.

I don't get it, it ran like a champ yesterday, it just was a bit tricky to start when cold but you'd think the battery is good enough to fire it up?  The starter spins nicely as well.

[Dino]

It seems that fully charged, my battery should read 12.6v so I'm close.  I'm sure the little charger is not super accurate either when it says 100%.  I think that should be fine then so why the weak spark?  And why after running fine all day yesterday?  Yes it was a bit rough to start at times but it ran strong.  I would come home, shut if off, do an adjustment and take it back out.  I did this at least 4 times.  After the initial cold start and the first semi hot start it would fire up right away, but day all I get is one lousy vroom.   

Do these wires not like dielectric grease?  The contacts all feel snug so it should work, also it would be more of an all or nothing situation with the spark maybe if too much grease was an issue?

Anything I can check around the coil or dizzy that may explain this?  I'm at a loss and for the moment need to throw in the towel so ideas are welcome.   

[b5blue]

Dino this might help:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA

[Dino]

Dino this might help:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA

Dude you're freaking me out!  I found the exact same video on some web site when I googled how to properly charge a battery, and that was less than 5 minutes ago!