Reproduction fender tags...... thoughts?

[TUFCAT]

Sorry to go off topic but since the thread on the green Charger was locked I thought I'd use your Fender Tag question to provide everyone with an update.  The Fender Tag on the Charger (XS29?OG186075) is POSITIVELY, ABSOLUTELY a Reproduction.  I personally talked with the gentleman who verified that he made it for the guy who also had me reproduce the VIN Decal.  The reproduction Fender Tag for that Charger was made in January of 2007.  I also called my contact at the NICB to check their registration records for the same vehicle.  I hope to hear back from him this afternoon.  It shouldn't be too long until the vehicle has been completely exposed and all questions answered.    

January of 2007 huh?  You probably can't say much but can you say what state the person lived in?  Very interesting....now I wonder how many times the car changed hands before the current owner got it, and whether they've all been burned by paying premium money for a fake car?

[BananaDan]

Use the Sharpie method like someone did at Carlisle did this year....hand wrote the fender tag codes i a Sharpie on the inner fender

There has been at least two times (not at carlisle) where people actually believed what's on there.  

Love it!

[NHCharger]

Tamper proof screws. We use them occasionally in commercial construction. You need a special screwdriver to back them out, something that a scum bag wouldn't have in his back pocket.

[ws23rt]

Use the Sharpie method like someone did at Carlisle did this year....hand wrote the fender tag codes i a Sharpie on the inner fender

There has been at least two times (not at carlisle) where people actually believed what's on there.  

I like that.  If a repo tag like that were made so much the better.  Good conversation starter or ender.

[tan top]

Superglue? Body panel adhesive? No need to remove the tag until the next restoration. Hopefully after I'm dead...

Troy

yeah I put a blob of windshield glue / pu sealer / sikaflex on mine , thought about the rivet deal , but stuck mine on when it was closer to oem under the hood , changed lot of stuff since so prolly would rivet it now    seen a roadrunner  &  coronet with a riveted on fender tag using roset vin tag rivits , looks a good idea , although could throw up a red flag may be as to what else have you been riveting with these roset rivits  

[69CoronetRT]

Sorry to go off topic but since the thread on the green Charger was locked I thought I'd use your Fender Tag question to provide everyone with an update.  The Fender Tag on the Charger (XS29?OG186075) is POSITIVELY, ABSOLUTELY a Reproduction.  I personally talked with the gentleman who verified that he made it for the guy who also had me reproduce the VIN Decal.  The reproduction Fender Tag for that Charger was made in January of 2007.  I also called my contact at the NICB to check their registration records for the same vehicle.  I hope to hear back from him this afternoon.  It shouldn't be too long until the vehicle has been completely exposed and all questions answered.    

January of 2007 huh?  You probably can't say much but can you say what state the person lived in?  Very interesting....now I wonder how many times the car changed hands before the current owner got it, and whether they've all been burned by paying premium money for a fake car?

Here's the problem....the person that made the bad tag will probably not be as forthcoming as Dave. It was much easier to dupe ECS into making a door sticker with just a VIN than to trick a person into making a fake fender tag.

1) the person that made the tag will have to admit they knowingly make fraudulent fender tags or
2) they pay no attention to details when they make the tags and question nothing that appear on the tag or
3) they are too dumb to be making fender tags or
4) require minimal documentation when making tags.

THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT HAVE FENDER TAGS MADE. (except for a direct copy of an existing legible tag in poor condition)

[Ghoste]

Exactly.  I still have the pm's saved from a huge argument with a kid on here years ago about changing his fender tag.  He was firmly of the opinion that it was his car do with with as he wished and the changes he was making to the tag were all options so it didn't matter.  He left the site so I never did hear if he was successful but if you are determined it can be done.  Fake broadcast sheets aren't impossible either.

[TUFCAT]

Sorry to go off topic but since the thread on the green Charger was locked I thought I'd use your Fender Tag question to provide everyone with an update.  The Fender Tag on the Charger (XS29?OG186075) is POSITIVELY, ABSOLUTELY a Reproduction.  I personally talked with the gentleman who verified that he made it for the guy who also had me reproduce the VIN Decal.  The reproduction Fender Tag for that Charger was made in January of 2007.  I also called my contact at the NICB to check their registration records for the same vehicle.  I hope to hear back from him this afternoon.  It shouldn't be too long until the vehicle has been completely exposed and all questions answered.    

Here's the problem....the person that made the bad tag will probably not be as forthcoming as Dave. It was much easier to dupe ECS into making a door sticker with just a VIN than to trick a person into making a fake fender tag.

1) the person that made the tag will have to admit they knowingly make fraudulent fender tags or
2) they pay no attention to details when they make the tags and question nothing that appear on the tag or
3) they are too dumb to be making fender tags or
4) require minimal documentation when making tags.

THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT HAVE FENDER TAGS MADE. (except for a direct copy of an existing legible tag in poor condition)

So now I have to ask the question "what came first"? - the tag or the door jamb sticker.    Somebody had their fake item made with less "documentation" than the other. This brings me back to my original bitch about these reproduction items. The old saying "garbage in, garbage out" applies.  If it passes the sniff test of being authentic it can be used to make a reproduction.  Some people may not even know they are being fooled... and the crooks are getting smarter.

Exactly.  I still have the pm's saved from a huge argument with a kid on here years ago about changing his fender tag.  He was firmly of the opinion that it was his car do with with as he wished and the changes he was making to the tag were all options so it didn't matter.  He left the site so I never did hear if he was successful but if you are determined it can be done.  Fake broadcast sheets aren't impossible either.

I'm actually surprised (in the case of the Six Pack Charger) that a fake broadcast sheet wasn't attempted.  With a vin plate, title, fender tag, and door vin decal in hand, what stops anyone from getting a new reproduction broadcast sheet manufactured for this car and have it "aged"?

[ECS]

Here's the problem....

The problem is that an "EXPERT" documented and certified NUMEROUS items that were reproduction.  I find it very peculiar that the same "Expert" has docked my VIN Decals on almost every car that he judges.  The only people he gives a free pass to are those associated with his programs or his close Friends.  How was he able to distinguish the reproduction VIN decals on the other cars he certified but the one on this vehicle just happened to conveniently be overlooked along with the Fender Tag and Dash VIN plate?  (Which is also a reproduction.)  Isn't it amazing that ALL 3 of these fake/reproduction items were deemed "original" by the "Expert"?  Connect the dots people!

[Ghoste]

So are you accusing Mr. Wise of complicity in this?

[ECS]

So are you accusing Mr. Wise of complicity in this?

I'm stating what was written and published in MCG regarding the certification of the vehicle.   

[TUFCAT]

I'm stating what was written and published in MCG regarding the certification of the vehicle.

Dude, get the report....puh-lease get the actual report!   We know you've got a vendetta, and that's okay.  I once hated one or two people in my life - but I got some good therapy, and got over it.  

I find it very peculiar that the same "Expert" has docked my VIN Decals on almost every car that he judges.  The only people he gives a free pass to are those associated with his programs or his close Friends.  How was he able to distinguish the reproduction VIN decals on the other cars he certified but the one on this vehicle just happened to conveniently be overlooked along with the Fender Tag and Dash VIN plate?

This sounds like a personal problem to me.    Now take a deep breath and count to three....1, 2,....

[Ghoste]

Okay, I've read the MCG article.  I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand because it seems sometimes you are concerned about the car being a fraud and other times grinding an axe with this Wyse or whatever his name is.  I suppose as the vendor of the decals you would naturally take it personally that sometimes he takes points away and other times doesn't notice.
A lot off topic I guess but has he ever indicated his beef with your repros?

[ECS]

.....because it seems sometimes you are concerned about the car being a fraud and other times grinding an axe with this Wyse or whatever his name is.

Sorry if conveying the facts have caused you to assume anything other than the topic at hand.

[ECS]

I suppose as the vendor of the decals you would naturally take it personally that sometimes he takes points away......

Not in the least!  Deductions SHOULD be given for reproduction items in an OE judged venue.

[Ghoste]

Well that's why  asked right?  Trying to understand and since sometimes your facts were only about the car and other times concentrate on experts, that was my only reason for asking.  I wasn't trying to start any side battles, my apologies.

[ECS]

sometimes your facts were only about the car and other times concentrate on experts.....

No need to apologize!    They both go hand & hand regarding this ordeal.  You have someone who attempted to falsify a vehicle and and an "expert" who aided with the process of doing so.  My comment about being able to recognize my reproduction VIN Decal versus a reproduction was genuine.  You would have to ask Dave Wise why his ability to distinguish between the two appears to be predicated on whatever agenda he is attempting to promote.  

[polywideblock]

so how long until this highjacked thread gets locked like the last one ?
  why don't the "experts "with an axe to grind start their own thread ?
   maybe   "are there really any mopar experts out there , show us your credentials " 

don't know dave wise or ECS   just sick of seeing the same stuff dragged up in others threads over and over after they have gotten another thread locked     

[ws23rt]

so how long until this highjacked thread gets locked like the last one ?
  why don't the "experts "with an axe to grind start their own thread ?
   maybe   "are there really any mopar experts out there , show us your credentials " 

don't know dave wise or ECS   just sick of seeing the same stuff dragged up in others threads over and over after they have gotten another thread locked     

I really don't want to help perpetuate this highjacked thread but the question---Are there really any mopar experts out there?---is a good one.  The word expert says the end has been reached as far as knowledge about mopars are concerned.

So I believe there are no experts only those that gain creditability.  Being creditable is earned and lost depending on how much one steps across the line of fact vs fiction.

[Ghoste]

Well if we are defining an expert as someone in possession of all knowledge on a topic and incapable of mistake then there have never been any experts ever.  Okay one maybe but he died on a cross.
The definitions I find are little more forgiving;


1. a person who has extensive skill or knowledge in a particular field

adj
2. skilful or knowledgeable

3. of, involving, or done by an expert: an expert job.

[C14: from Latin expertus known by experience, from experīrī to test; see experience]

I don't find anything that says an expert has ALL of the skill or knowledge nor can I find anything which implies they cannot be in error.  

[ws23rt]

My thought about this is that the term expert is bigger than the holder of the title.

[ws23rt]

Well if we are defining an expert as someone in possession of all knowledge on a topic and incapable of mistake then there have never been any experts ever.  Okay one maybe but he died on a cross.
The definitions I find are little more forgiving;


1. a person who has extensive skill or knowledge in a particular field

adj
2. skilful or knowledgeable

3. of, involving, or done by an expert: an expert job.

[C14: from Latin expertus known by experience, from experīrī to test; see experience]

I don't find anything that says an expert has ALL of the skill or knowledge nor can I find anything which implies they cannot be in error.  

  A good example that I am not an expert on definitions. 

[Ghoste]

At the end of the day, there is something dishonest going on with this car is all I think so far.  The rest is fluff.

[Rocco Barnard]

so how long until this highjacked thread gets locked like the last one ?
 why don't the "experts "with an axe to grind start their own thread ?
  maybe   "are there really any mopar experts out there , show us your credentials "  

don't know Dave wise or ECS   just sick of seeing the same stuff dragged up in others threads over and over after they have gotten another thread locked    

I agree a brand new thread discussion should be started by ECS.  I will suggest a name for it.  "Six Pack Charger - My Own Internal Investigation"

The first order of business should be for ECS to contact the current owner Randy Koppel, introduce himself as the one of the "experts" who made the door jamb decal, then ask for a copy of the inspection report (complied by another "expert" whom he doesn't like). Without obtaining this report, expert #1 should not disparage the work of "expert #2" based entirely on heresay and what he has read in a magazine.  For some reason one of the "experts" has chosen not to participate on any on line discussion threads about this subject, and the other "expert"?....well you know.  

Here's a good place to continue the discussion.

Randy Koppel
Desert Auto Sport
4237 E Magnolia Street
Phoenix, Arizona 85034

Phone: (602) 438-0100

[TUFCAT]