Which ignition to go with? HELP - MAJOR PROBLEM!

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I have the firecore and love it. Best distributor on the market.

[Stegs]

I have the firecore and love it. Best distributor on the market.

good to hear, I just ordered mine thru Ron, got the distributor, coil, and plug wires ..........I cant wait to get it done....my car has been running bad lately...(plug wire landed on the manifold and melted)

needless to say....can wait to see what the car will do!

[mopar0166]

Love my MSD setup , easy tuning lots of power

[BananaDan]

Scratch that.  Just spoke with my mechanic and switched up the order.  He recommended I go with the new 6AL (#6425).

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/msdigbomsd6a1.html

I'm glad Mike is installing/tuning and not me  Seen & read of a lot of problems with the MSD "digital" boxes. Very, very sensitive to underhood EMI noise.

I luv my analog box and know a lot who feel the same way. 



Ron

Just a quick update...  I dropped the car off at Mike's last night for the ignition upgrades.

Ron,
I think I have the answer to how he avoids EMI interference with the new 6AL digital box.  He told me he is going to install it under the rear seat and he makes a custom harness to bring the wiring up into the engine compartment and blends it into the stock harnesses.  From a visual standpoint, the engine bay will look like a stock points ignition car. 

Here are pics of my stealth blaster coil.  I should have her back in time for the Mopar show at Englishtown this Saturday! 

[Ghoste]

Interesting, no issues with heat then.  Of course underhood would see more heat than underseat so...
I like the coil Dan.

[BananaDan]

Well I picked the car up last night and holy crap, what a difference.  The idling is so steady now, acceleration is smooth and responsive.  She acts like a different car, I can't believe I didn't go with MSD sooner. I am very pleased with this setup, and the new headers make such a difference as well.  The car doesn't sound like a monkey is under the hood with a wrench banging on everything when idling.  In the end, this is what was done:

MSD box and coil with FireCore wires
TTI 1.75" headers to replace the Hooker SuperComps
Eddy CH4B intake to replace the stock magnum intake

Mike also changed out the plugs (NGK XR5) for the colder NGK-R5670-6.  For the MSD install, he put the box under the rear seat, removed the Orange box and soldered a wire in the ballast resistor (removed the resistor guts).  When you look at the engine it looks like a points ignition car (save for the headers of course).  The car was there for far longer than expected because when he finished and ran it for the first time the heater core decided to fail and puke it's guts out all over my interior.  Luckily he was there and was able to catch most of the coolant so no real harm done but I had to rush ship the box out to SMS Auto who thankfully had a box sitting on the shelf ready to go. 

Delays and money, the name of the game...   

Anyway, the car runs and sounds the best it ever has and I can't wait to get on the road and start putting some miles on her.   

Thank you everyone, especially Ron, for all of the help!  Now to start saving for new heads (one day)...

[firefighter3931]

Good stuff Dan....glad to hear it's running much better. 

The MSD box is an excellent product and has some nice features. I have one on the Black Pig for the Rev limiter feature. 

Here's a good read on the FireCore RTR distributor vs the MSD ignition complete with dyno numbers.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_1212_testing_a_new_mopar_distributor/



Ron


Ps. Start saving for those aluminum heads 

[BananaDan]

Well, life hasn't been too great this season. I am in MSD hell. The car did run great last year after the new ignition system went in (details are above in this thread), the car just purrs now. Now, onto my problems.

Quick re-cap:
I have a new (3 years old) MP distributor and replaced the orange box and reproduction coil last September with an MSD 6AL Digital (6425), Blaster 2 HV Coil and Firecore 50 wires. Ran the car to maybe 3 car shows after the conversion and before the winter slumber. If I put 200 miles on her during that time, that is a lot.

Fried MSD box #1:
Fast forward to waking her up for 2015. I visit the car, get her ready for the season, fire her up and let her run for a few minutes.  I change the oil and run her some more and done for the day. Two weeks later, I go to fire her up and get ready to pack for Carlisle and nothing. The starter would turn over but no spark. I test everything and there is just zero spark coming from the coil. I pull the rear seat and the LED on the MSD isn't lighting up. It's dead as a doornail (it ran just two weeks ago!). I tow the car to Mike's shop and he runs through the same tests, MSD is dead. Off to Pep Boys, new box, get it into the car and it lights right up. We try to start it and still nothing. Coil is sparking but weakly. Back to Pep Boys, buy a coil, back to car and install it. Now the starter is fried after all of the turning over for the past 12-16 hours I and then we put it through. FML. I place an order for a new starter from Mancini and once Mike has it swapped the car fires right up. He tunes it, drives it, all is well.

July 13, I pick the car up, drive it 20 miles to a cruise night which is filled to capacity and decide to drive another 20 miles to meet up with Bill at another cruise. Another ~30 miles home at the end of the night and all is well. Park the car, I don't get back to her until yesterday, 8/1.

Fried MSD box #2:
I visit the car on Saturday to get it ready for a show Bill and I were planning on hitting today. The car fires right up and I let it run for a few minutes and about 3-4 minutes into running she dies, like the plug was pulled on her. I test, check for spark and nothing again. Lift the seat, no LED, box is dead. I repeat the job Mike and I did last month, run to Pep Boys, get another MSD box, plug it in and the car fires right up. I let her idle for at least 15 minutes, pull her out/in of the garage but no real driving and I put her away.

Fried MSD box #3:
I get to the car early this AM for the car show. She fires right up, runs for maybe 90 seconds and dies. Same thing, lift seat, no light, box is toast.

Here are my thoughts, because this is starting to blow my mind. Please chime in as I need all of the help I can get to solve this. I will be calling MSD Tech Support tomorrow.

1. At first, I'm now thinking I should have listened to Ron and got the FC RTR setup. However this isn't normal and I know that. Mike says he has at least 30 installs of this box in customer's cars on the roads with no issues. Something systemic is wrong that is cooking these boxes. Now to figure out what it is.

2. My first suspicion was my battery tender. In the winter I pull the battery from the car and plug it into the tender, but during the season I disconnect the negative battery cable and plug the tender in whenever I leave the car to sit. I decided to not use my tender for the rest of the season after box failure #2 to test the theory. I was wrong.

3. The only things the MSD plugs into are the distributor, the battery (neg), the starter relay (pos), a 12v switched trigger line and the coil. The coil was new to begin with, and is new again after being replaced in July plus it's an MSD coil, so IMO that isn't suspect. The battery shouldn't be the problem and if the wiring were an issue, new boxes wouldn't turn right on and fire the car up when plugged in every time. My thinking is that leaves either the distributor or the starter relay as possible culprits. Maybe somehow some kind of power surge is making it's way back to the MSD box and zapping it?

I have google'd the shit out of this and I can't seem to find anyone else out there having a similar issue. The only thing I found was a post on FBBO where an MSD Tech said that Mopar Performance distributors were hit and miss but I don't buy it as the writer of the post tried two MP distributors.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?44047-MSD-6AL-Digital-No-Spark-At-Cranking

4. My last thought is to get an analog 6AL and plug that in and see what happens.

[BananaDan]

Just spoke with Mike and he is suspecting the starter relay, also because the last episode caused the starter to fail which he said he has seen these starters fail like that very rarely. It was the denso mini torque starter and when removed he said it smelled like something inside was all burned up. The starter was 5 years old and had maybe 3,000 miles on it. He wants me to bypass the starter relay for now and run the MSD pos lead directly to the battery pos terminal and see if the problem goes away.

[myk]

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I've always had my MSD 6's positive lead hooked up directly to the battery; that's what the instructions tell you to do, anyway...

[BananaDan]

Their diagrams do say this but they do also support using the starter relay.

[Dino]

It shouldn't make any difference if it goes straight to the battery or to the relay.  There's a fat wire between them so same difference.

I don't know why these issues are happening though.   

[BananaDan]

Got off the phone with MSD Tech Support - what a peach that guy was. He basically said the only thing that could be causing my problem is voltage related to either the power line or the trigger line. He said that a bad starter relay could definitely cause issues. He wants me to do a voltage check on both red wires in the on position, started and off. Anything under 8v or over 18v is a problem. Obviously, in OFF, the trigger wire should read no voltage. I've also been reading about a capacitor filter they sell for radio noise suppression that also filters the 12v feed to the box to protect it from voltage spikes. I could possibly have a bad voltage regulator I suppose? I just put the 100A Tuff Stuff alternator on the car after MSD box failure #1 so considering I lost a box with my original alternator and with the new one, I don't suspect the alternator.

https://www.msdignition.com/Products/Accessories/Installation_Acc_/8830_-_Noise_Capacitor,_26_Kufd.aspx

This web page says this guy puts a capacitor filter on every MSD install he does.

http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/wiring/msd-install.htm

Anyone have experience with them?

[Dino]

Yes but only to suppress noise coming through the radio.  The fact that it keeps the power from spiking is what you really need so I say install one of those puppies and replace your starter relay just to be sure.  It's only $9.

[BananaDan]

PepBoys carries BWD starter relay and Auto Zone carries Duralast. They're both ~$20. Any preference or quality difference between the two?

[Dino]

I'm afraid I don't have experience with either, I got mine from Vansauto.  But it's a relay and there's not much to it so I'd try either one.  Just make sure to get that capacitor in place in case something goes wrong with the new relay.

[BananaDan]

Already ordered.  We'll see.

[BananaDan]

I should mention one other thing. Ever since the MSD install, whenever the car is at idle, my ammeter bounces or pulses and my dome light also pulses. When the engine is at higher RPMs this goes away. I've read about a diode they provide in the box being connected to the smaller red switched source wire as the MSD can cause a voltage feed  back into the run circuit? Thoughts?

[ACUDANUT]

I should mention one other thing. Ever since the MSD install, whenever the car is at idle, my ammeter bounces or pulses and my dome light also pulses. When the engine is at higher RPMs this goes away. I've read about a diode they provide in the box being connected to the smaller red switched source wire as the MSD can cause a voltage feed  back into the run circuit? Thoughts?

I think I will stick  with Factory ECU.  Never had any of these problems. 

[myk]

Plenty of people have had problems with the factory ECU also.  The factory ECU of course now being made in a factory in China...

[1974dodgecharger]

Plenty of people have had problems with the factory ECU also.  The factory ECU of course now being made in a factory in China...

MSD is also???

crazy....Im still on my same mopar stock unit for years now.... still works.  The MSD unit not so much I just switch back to stock ecu.

[BananaDan]

Digital or analog 6AL?

[myk]

Plenty of people have had problems with the factory ECU also.  The factory ECU of course now being made in a factory in China...

MSD is also???

crazy....Im still on my same MSD unit for years now.... still works.  The MSD unit not so much I just switch back to stock ecu.

Same here.   Bought my MSD box in 1995 and I hope it lasts even longer. 

I thought they were all digital?

[BananaDan]

The analog box people talk about is the older one, part number 6420. The new one says digital on top, doesn't use rev limiter chips but rather dials you use to choose the rpm limit and is part number 6425.

[myk]

Yeah I've got the analog model...