Which ignition to go with? HELP - MAJOR PROBLEM!

[b5blue]

I like my mini coil! 

[firefighter3931]

Is the MSD Blaster II canister coil able to be used?

I don't think so.....pretty sure the blaster cannister coil will burn up with a constant 12v feed. MSD recommends a ballist resistor when using the Blaster II . The Blaster SS is rated for a constant 12v feed like the FireCore mini CD coil.


Ron

[Dino]

I like my mini coil! 

Same here!  I mounted mine on the inner fender under the washer bottle.  I love the look of the dizzy as well.

[Ghoste]

I had always thought the Blaster II was okay to run without a ballast.  I got away with it for a few years somehow. 
In any case, if we want to run a canister coil the Firecore one is really the only one that can take the sustained voltage.

[BananaDan]

Ron,
I just checked the car's timing and at 2,500 RPMs and the timing mark jumped around a tad but not much. I'd say it jumped about the width of the timing line both both above and below the fixed timing mark. The total window of travel was probably 1cm at most and it traveled throughout that 1cm (both ends of the amount of travel and in-between). At 2,500 she was at 32*. At idle (900-1,000RPM) she is at 24*.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough.  

BD

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I just checked the car's timing and at 2,500 RPMs and the timing mark jumped around a tad but not much. I'd say it jumped about the width of the timing line both both above and below the fixed timing mark. The total window of travel was probably 1cm at most and it traveled throughout that 1cm (both ends of the amount of travel and in-between). At 2,500 she was at 32*. At idle (900-1,000RPM) she is at 24*.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough.  

BD

Dan,

It sounds like you have a nice stable spark....better than most using the MP distributor. 

The question at this point is....do you want to use an MSD box or go with an all in one system like the Firecore RTR ?


I would have a look at your total timing just to see what it's doing.    I like to map out the timing curve in 200-300 rpm increments to see how much total timing you have and where it stops advancing. Some adjustments to the mechanical advance and an advance spring swap might be in your future. 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Ron,
Thanks for the info, I'll map out the timing curve when I get a chance.  I guess my final question is, how does the RTR ECU stack up against an MSD ECU performance-wise?  I have to say, even though my MP dist is stable I do like the sound of not having to rely on the orange box and ballast resistor.  That said, I like the sound of the RTR unit.  However is the MSD worth the extra bucks?  I guess I have three options now.  Which would you recommend?

1. Leave MP dist and put in MSD
2. Replace all with FC RTR
3. Install FC PnP dist and MSD (I'm guessing not worth it b/c my MP dist is in good shape?)

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
Thanks for the info, I'll map out the timing curve when I get a chance.  I guess my final question is, how does the RTR ECU stack up against an MSD ECU performance-wise?  I have to say, even though my MP dist is stable I do like the sound of not having to rely on the orange box and ballast resistor.  That said, I like the sound of the RTR unit.  However is the MSD worth the extra bucks?  I guess I have three options now.  Which would you recommend?

1. Leave MP dist and put in MSD
2. Replace all with FC RTR
3. Install FC PnP dist and MSD (I'm guessing not worth it b/c my MP dist is in good shape?)

The best options are going to be #1 & #2   The #3 option is viable but at this point would be spending cash that won't show any improvement. All three will be much better that what you're currently using ! The MP stuff requires a ballist resistor which reduces voltage to 8-9V to keep the coil from burning up. This in turn robs spark energy and reduces combustion efficiency. The newer orange boxes are junk 

Both the RTR and MSD use a 12v power feed to increase spark energy. The MSD does have multiple spark discharge below 3000 rpm which helps idle quality when using radical cam profiles. Personally, I like the MSD stuff but the new digital boxes can be very tempermental. If you go MSD i recommend looking for an older 6al analog box.  

That being said ; the RTR works fantatastic and lots of guys are running them with hot street/strip builds in the 500+ HP range, 440's, strokers, hemis etc...The added simplicity of installation is a nice bonus. No external box, no wiring for that box and no ballist resistor to worry about. You can't get an easier/cleaner install than the FireCore RTR distributor.  



Ron

[BananaDan]

With MSD, I assume the Blaster 2 coil is recommended?  Does that setup when matched with the MP dist still require a ballast resistor?  Also, the RTR has no rev limiter capabilities, correct?

EDIT:
I read the MSD-6AL install instructions and I see no reference to a ballast needed when used with the Blaster coil.   

[firefighter3931]

With MSD, I assume the Blaster 2 coil is recommended?  Does that setup when matched with the MP dist still require a ballast resistor?  Also, the RTR has no rev limiter capabilities, correct?

EDIT:
I read the MSD-6AL install instructions and I see no reference to a ballast needed when used with the Blaster coil.   

With a MSD 6 series box there is no ballist resistor and the blaster II coil will work allthough the blaster SS is a better choice...regardless of what distributor gets used. The ballist resistor is there only to protect the coil....not the distributor on a MP or stock style ignition system. 

With CD ignition the coil is fed directly from the MSD box. The heavy red power wire gets connected directly to the battery positive terminal, the heavy black ground goes to the battery negative terminal. The small red wire is a trigger and gets attached to the brown & blue bulkhead wires. This tells the box to turn on when the ignition switch is in the start and run positions. No need for a ballist to step down voltage because the box sends juice to the coil and regulates power. 

The RTR does not have a rev limiter but with an automatic trans it's not a big isue....with a stick it really helps in case you miss a shift. 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Thanks Ron.  Almost there.    Each answer draws a new question.  I'm on MSD's website and it appears that the SS coil is not available in canister form.  Correct?  Therefore if I wanted a stock look, just leave my reproduction coil where it is, not hooked up, and hide the SS coil alongside the MSD box?

This is the SS coil you're referring to, correct?

http://www.msdperformance.com/Products/Coils/Street/Strip/8207_-_MSD_Blaster_SS_Coil.aspx

[BananaDan]

If I go with a Blaster, this is the recommended one for stock-style horizontal mount, right?

http://www.msdperformance.com/Products/Coils/Race/8222_-_High_Vibration_Blaster_Coil.aspx

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron.  Almost there.    Each answer draws a new question.  I'm on MSD's website and it appears that the SS coil is not available in canister form.  Correct?  Therefore if I wanted a stock look, just leave my reproduction coil where it is, not hooked up, and hide the SS coil alongside the MSD box?

This is the SS coil you're referring to, correct?

http://www.msdperformance.com/Products/Coils/Street/Strip/8207_-_MSD_Blaster_SS_Coil.aspx

Yep, that is the one....very similar to the FireCore mini CD coil. You can also use a blaster II cannister style coil as well....it just won't be as good. Lots of guys run them with a capacative discharge ignition box.... it's just not the best option.  



Ron

[firefighter3931]

If I go with a Blaster, this is the recommended one for stock-style horizontal mount, right?

http://www.msdperformance.com/Products/Coils/Race/8222_-_High_Vibration_Blaster_Coil.aspx

If i was going to use an MSD stock style cannister coil mounted in the stock location....that is definately the one I would use. 


Ron

[BananaDan]

Ok, orders are placed!  Thank you Ron for all of your help!!!  I went with:

-Mopar Performance MSD-6AL (I found a retailer that still had two of these discontinued units in stock!)   
-MSD Blaster High Vibration coil
-Firecore PF1002 wires
-ECS ignition coil dry transfer decal to dress the Blaster up a bit

I'll let you all know how it works out.   

[firefighter3931]

Ok, orders are placed!  Thank you Ron for all of your help!!!  I went with:

-Mopar Performance MSD-6AL (I found a retailer that still had two of these discontinued units in stock!)   
-MSD Blaster High Vibration coil
-Firecore PF1002 wires
-ECS ignition coil dry transfer decal to dress the Blaster up a bit

I'll let you all know how it works out.   

That should work pretty good....I have the same box in my car and it's been running flawlessly for years. 

Lemme know what you find with your timing curve....



Ron

[Troy]

If I go with a Blaster, this is the recommended one for stock-style horizontal mount, right?

http://www.msdperformance.com/Products/Coils/Race/8222_-_High_Vibration_Blaster_Coil.aspx

If i was going to use an MSD stock style cannister coil mounted in the stock location....that is definately the one I would use. 


Ron

That's what I am using currently. I peeled the label off though! Can barely see it under the air cleaner lid.

Troy

[BananaDan]

Scratch that.  Just spoke with my mechanic and switched up the order.  He recommended I go with the new 6AL (#6425).

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/msdigbomsd6a1.html

[firefighter3931]

Scratch that.  Just spoke with my mechanic and switched up the order.  He recommended I go with the new 6AL (#6425).

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/msdigbomsd6a1.html

I'm glad Mike is installing/tuning and not me  Seen & read of a lot of problems with the MSD "digital" boxes. Very, very sensitive to underhood EMI noise.

I luv my analog box and know a lot who feel the same way. 



Ron

[Ghoste]

I like my analog.

[BananaDan]

I thought so too.  He initially said the same thing but said he meant to stay away from the new 6AL-2 and 7 boxes. He said the "digital" version of the 6AL was good and opens up options, especially when we build my new motor in the coming years (440-6pk Stroker) with custom timing curves and such using a laptop.  I'll have plenty of questions when that comes around.

 

In the end, I trust him so we'll see how it goes. The next time you speak with Rick @ FireCore, feel free to ask him about Mike Bonsanti. They know each other.

Ron, I can't thank you enough. You're such a great resource!!!

[BananaDan]

Lemme know what you find with your timing curve....

Ron

Should I wait until the new ignition setup is in before I map out my timing curve?

[firefighter3931]

Lemme know what you find with your timing curve....

Ron

Should I wait until the new ignition setup is in before I map out my timing curve?

It wouldn't hurt to have a look at it now....that way we can see what needs to be done when you take it in for tuning. 

Mike is pretty sharp and i'm sure he won't let it leave the shop unless it's 100% perfect. He probably has a few tricks to shield the power wires and prevent EMI/RFI interfeance with the digital boxes. 

Rick has been selling the FireCore wire sets to the FAST guys for years and Mike builds many of those engines for the Mopar guys. They know each other very well and everyone who knows Mike has nothing but high praise....myself included. You're in good hands, Dan ! 



Ron

[BananaDan]

LOL. I didn't know you knew him. I'll check my timing this weekend. Thanks again.

[don duick]

just a quick note on the connection of the MSD box. I had problems with my new MSD 6A box. It would just stop working ran really rough for about a minute before it shut off and after about half an hour would start and run again and cut off again. The smaller red wire from the MSD box that is connected to the brown blue ignition wire needs to be 12V (no less I think). I assume I was not getting 12V and yes the resistor was removed. I now use a relay triggered by the old ignition wire (blue brown) and connect the small red wire to the positive terminal on battery. Now all is fine never cut out since.