Which ignition to go with? HELP - MAJOR PROBLEM!

[BananaDan]

I don't know what to do!!!  I want to spice up my ignition system and was about to pull the trigger on an MSD 6-AL, Blaster 2 coil and FireCore wires. The setup is recommended by my Mopar mechanic Mike Bonsanti in NJ.  He prefers that setup and installs it hidden so everything looks stock like people have written about here.  Last night, Bill440RT mentioned to me about FireCore's RTR distributors (yes, I've been living under a rock lately if you haven't noticed).  I ended up speaking to Rick at FireCore last night (what a great guy!) and I really liked what he had to tell me about the FC RTR dist, FC wires and FC coil for a setup.

FC Pros:
Everyone here seems to rave about the FC end-to-end setup.
Rick was awesome, talking to me at 8:30 when at home and I could hear his kids in the background.
Cheaper
Install is easier, no MSD to hide/splice in

MSD Pros:
My mechanic Mike who has done wonders with my car, arguably the top Mopar mechanic in NJ, still recommends the MSD approach even after proposing the RC RTR idea.  He and Rick know each other pretty well too.
I trust him completely.
It's going to work well being a proven solution for decades.

My current setup:
440/727/GearVendors
TurboAction 10" TC (17805ST)
3.91 rear
906 heads
Isky Mega 280 Hydraulic cam
Eddy Thunder AVS 800
Stock Magnum intake, Eddy CH4B being installed when new ignition is installed
MP orange box (3 years old)
MP mallory-style distributor (2 years old)
Mopar reproduction date-coded plug wires

I haven't had her dyno'd but I'd put her in the ballpark of just under 500HP.  I have never been happy with how she revs, in fact if I sit in park and rev the engine a few times she typically backfires.  Also, if it's hot out or on long trips when climbing hills/mountains, I get some mild detonation.

BD

p.s. Attached is a picture Mike sent me of a 625HP stroker he built that has MSD and runs in the 10s.

[Ghoste]

Our own Firefighter3931 is also a Firecore dealer and I've talked to him a little bit about a change as well.  I have had a lot of the same questions as you.  I have an MSD sitting here ready to go on the car but after considering Rons suggestions the rest will almost certainly end up being Firecore.

[BananaDan]

Thanks Ghoste, I know, I'm hoping for Ron's input on this one.  

I should also say that I'm after a stock sleeper approach to my car, I try to keep her as stock appearing as possible.  Under the hood the only out-of-sorts thing are my headers.  However, whatever can be done that's hidden I am all for.  I know the FC dist is billet and looks a bit different, but it takes a stock cap and with some ECS decals to dress it up I'm fine with it (appearance wise).  So my real conundrum is from the performance aspect.  Is it 50/50, or is there a clear winner here?

[Ghoste]

Thats funny because one of the things that has stopped me from pulling the trigger has been the appearance.  I want that rock solid timing but the billet puts me off just a bit. 

[Troy]

On my Challenger I started with the Mopar orange box and electronic distributor. Hated it. Then I switched to Firecore distributor and MSD box but the distributor looked too far out of place for how stock the rest of the engine compartment was. I never even drove it this way so I can't give a functionality review. I currently have an FBO recurved distributor and a Rev-n-ator control box. I kept the MSD box and Firecore distributor for my Charger since nothing on it is stock! Honestly, I may leave the MSD box on my run test stand and switch to an RTR Firecore in the Charger. I like the simplicity and performance but it just doesn't "fit in" with stock appearing engines. Get stranded a couple times with the Mopar parts and you're willing to make some compromises though...

Troy

[Ghoste]

Very true.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Dan,

There's nothing wrong with an MSD box and the firecore distributor combination. If you're looking for a somewhat stock appearing distributor the Firecore plug & play looks close enough and also has a vac advance canniser. None of the MSD distributors look remotely close to stock and the bodies are quite a bit larger in diameter and only come with HEI terminals.

The Firecore units are the same size as stock and will fit with all aftermarket heads/valve cover combinations while the MSD stuff often requires modifications and grinding on parts. You can also get a tan cap with stock style terminals....neither of which you get with MSD. The construction is top shelf with roller bearings on the shaft support and a rock solid advance system that is stable to 8000+ rpm.

The housing is cold forged billet aluminum so it is a bit shiny...sorry about that but once installed it's not that distracting. 

The advance mechanism is very easy to adjust to custom tailor your advance curve for any engine combination. No welding/grinding on old tired mopar distributors required. The cap, reluctor and pickup can be replaced with parts from your local parts store should you ever have a problem on the road.

An MSD 6 series box with a Firecore distributor is the best of all worlds. Some prefer the all in one approach using the ready to run distributor an it also works very well but does not have multiple spark discharge.



Ron

[BananaDan]

Thanks Ron.  I wasn't considering the FC dist along with an MSD box, nor was I considering an MSD dist.  What I'm wondering is, looks aside, is there a significant performance difference between these two setups I'm considering:

1. Keep my modern MP mallory-style dist, install a hidden MSD-6AL and MSD Blaster 2 coil.

2. Replace my MP dist with a FC RTR dist and install a FC coil.

The reason for my two choices is, if I decide to put a FC dist in my car, I'm going to get the RTR one and not bother with the MSD install.  My mechanic is recommending I stay with the MP mallory-style dist and put in a 6AL and new coil.  I'm going with FC50 wires either way.  I also forgot to mention earlier that my current coil is one of those Mopar Reproduction white-lettered coils.

[b5blue]

  Dan I switched to the Firecore RTR, recurved and adjusted advance and can now run 89 oct. no problem. The included coil will look wrong as it's the modern constant 12volt type but it mounted in the stock six pack location fairly easy.
  No ecu box or resistor are a dream come true for me, less external crap to malfunction! The quality is superior. I see no need for anything better like adding MSD.
If you want a MP dizzy let me know I have one near new cheap.

[BananaDan]

  Dan I switched to the Firecore RTR, recurved and adjusted advance and can now run 89 oct. no problem. The included coil will look wrong as it's the modern constant 12volt type but it mounted in the stock six pack location fairly easy.
  No ecu box or resistor are a dream come true for me, less external crap to malfunction! The quality is superior. I see no need for anything better like adding MSD.
If you want a MP dizzy let me know I have one near new cheap.

Thanks Neal!  So you pulled a new MP dist for a FC RTR, huh?  Did you notice a difference?  Can you post a pic of the install and new setup in place?  89 Octane???     For the coil, Rick @ FC told me it was a black round canister-style coil and that I could even put the ECS decal on it to make it appear correct.   

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron.  I wasn't considering the FC dist along with an MSD box, nor was I considering an MSD dist.  What I'm wondering is, looks aside, is there a significant performance difference between these two setups I'm considering:

1. Keep my modern MP mallory-style dist, install a hidden MSD-6AL and MSD Blaster 2 coil.

2. Replace my MP dist with a FC RTR dist and install a FC coil.

The reason for my two choices is, if I decide to put a FC dist in my car, I'm going to get the RTR one and not bother with the MSD install.  My mechanic is recommending I stay with the MP mallory-style dist and put in a 6AL and new coil.  I'm going with FC50 wires either way.  I also forgot to mention earlier that my current coil is one of those Mopar Reproduction white-lettered coils.

Hey Dan,

Sorry for the confusion.....I was assuming that you already had a 6al box on the car or ready to install. 

The issue most are having with MP distributors is unstable spark also known as spark scatter. To see if yours has an issue is simple ; rev it up to 2500 rpm and hold the throttle steady with the timing light on. If the spark is jumping around you have spark scatter. If it's steady you're good to go 

There are several members running the RTR distributor with 500hp builds. The RTR uses a constant 12v power feed which increases spark energy and improves combustion. It's a huge gain vs the conventional ballist resistor/external ecu (orange/chrome box) 


Ron

[b5blue]

  Dan I'll get ya some pics today. Short story for me, rebuilt the 440 and thought a stock reman dizzy would match a stock rebuild nicely so I got one from NAPA. 18 months later after never getting the thing to run right took a second look a dizzy. Found it was a total crap, wrong curve/advance with a wobbly shaft to boot. Got another rebuild, more crap. Got the MP new one and still issues, by then I had found Don at FBO and bought the old style A688 kit, sent the rebuilt dizzy to Don to be curved and fixed. Shelved the MP dizzy and ran Dons setup. Still some light ping on inclines but the car was usable for a daily driver. 18 months later after mostly having the car sit idle while I did body repairs I'm on my way to the welders shop to replace floorboard foot wells and the car dies. At the end of a blind curve next to a steel guard rail I sat for 3 hours while AAA sent a wrecker to pick me up somewhere in VA. problem was I was 1,000 miles south in FL. waiting.
  3 hours watching jerks cut into the slow lane to pass on a curve to beat a traffic light then find my car stuck stopped dead in front of them. Cars swerving back and cutting off or pushing lanes of traffic into each other missing my car and others by inches, texting mom's in SUV's, confused elderly, screaming BMW's I saw it all and at about an hour into me pissed and puckered I realized 2 things: 1st was you couldn't pull a pin out of my butt with a tractor and 2nd was if my car made it out of here I was getting the best darn ignition system I can.
  Who cares what ignition "looks like" if it fails? It's like brakes if they don't work all you have is a big hunk of steel. (That will most likely be in the worst possible place for failure.)  I don't even care what failed my ignition anymore, it's all in boxes on a shelf. (Up for grabs if any want it cheap!) 
   

[Ghoste]

That tale makes a very good point.

Normally you don't hear much bad about the FBO stuff either.

[b5blue]

At the time it looked to be the best system. (Old style A688.) I clearly had "0" spark and as A688 was discontinued what failed was pointless. (No pun intended.  ) Only later did I find out about bad orange ECU's and spark scatter MP dizzys. I got the never ever buy A1-Cardone reman. anything again message years earlier! I did spend a day checking connections and looking for voltage but found no clear fail. Keep in mind I have NEW engine harness, ignition switch, very good battery and fairly new Firecore wires/spark plugs along with a nicely working Denso 120amp Alt conversion. Even my dash and lights harness had been cleaned and inspected then treated with Caig Labs DeOxIT entirely. 

[ottawamerc]

I have installed a MSD RTR into mine and it has run flawlessly so far but like Ron said I did have to clearnace quite a bit of material to get it to fit and I need to pull the valve cover off to pull the dist cap off too which is a pain in the a$$ I found out about FC after and I wished I had bought it instead and may yet anyways, it has SOOO many thumbs up from active members here that to me it's a no brainer Stop guessing and buy the Firecore you will be satisfied.

Scott

[BananaDan]

Wow Neal, that story made my bum pucker up a bit. That's why I keep a go bag in my trunk at all times.

My Charger Go Bag:
Spare Orange ECU
Spare VR
Spare belts
Spare Ballast Resistors (2)
Fuses
Dist Cap
Dist Rotor
Misc brackets and hose clamps
Spare Fuel Pump Rod

[b5blue]

Here are pics with the six pack air cleaner off.

[b5blue]

  For a six pack coil bracket the new coil mounting is tricky. Too low on the bracket and the hardware will hit the intake to head runner underneath, too high and your into the bottom of the air cleaner. The supplied coil wire just reaches this location. For now I just jumped the resistor, later I'll rework the entire engine harness for the FC RTR and the Denso 120amp alt. and clean things up removing the old resistor, ECU and dizzy plug. I re-curved to dual rate by changing one spring to heavy and one as supplied the used a 16 degree advance adjuster to pull a few degrees out of total advance.  TA DA! Running 89 octane with iron heads and .060 over 9.5 to 1 Speed Pro Hyper pistons. 

[BananaDan]

Thanks for the pics Neal.  Which coil is that?  Rick at FireCore told me he makes a coil that is canister style, and black and looks like a stock coil.   

[Windsor]

Thanks for the pics Neal.  Which coil is that?  Rick at FireCore told me he makes a coil that is canister style, and black and looks like a stock coil.  

That looks to be the Firecore CD R2R mini coil. I am running the R2R dizzy and mini coil in my '40 with a 383. Went from having nothing but problems with the old style ignition setup to crisp and smooth with the FC setup.
Link to coil.
https://www.customwiresets.com/product.php?productid=16291&cat=0&page=1&featured

[b5blue]

OH yea NOW they have that....that would have been nice to know! Mine is what came with my set, it's smaller and cost less than the first ones they offered but yea it looks nothing like an old one. You certain you were not talking about the "Plug and Play" model? Mine is RTR...NO ECU or resistor needed. That's what I wanted...no more F ing ECU's and resistors with the mandatory backup, just in case, set in the trunk! (Not to mention all the wiring that a 70 wouldn't have anyway!)  

[BananaDan]

Here is the FC coil I'm talking about.  Yes, he said this canister style coil will work with either their RTR or regular distributors.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=7551913

[BananaDan]

It shows up here in a pic posted by Ron as well.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=102162.0

[firefighter3931]

Both coils will work....the canister style as well as the CD ignition coil. For those that are not concerned with stock appearance, my preference is towards the CD coil and preferably mounted on the inner fender away from vibration and engine heat. The round HP coil was originally designed to be used with the plug & play distributor along with a .8 ohn MSD ballist resistor and mopar style ECU (orange/chrome box).

Subsequent testing showed the HP coil capable of handling a constant 12v power feed so we've been selling those to those guys who must have the stock look. The results have been good so far with the canister style coil.

So, basicly there are two choices.


Ron

[Ghoste]

Is the MSD Blaster II canister coil able to be used?