And we have power...sort of...

[Dino]

I finally got everything done to power up the car after 3 days short of 11 months.  I installed my cluster temporarily (with volt meter), checked all the wiring and hooked up the battery.

The good news is that there was no sign of smoke, hot wires or anything else that would be of concern.  The bad news is that some things don't work...actually a lot don't work.  

First of, my system is no longer original.  The fusible link has been replaced by a 50 amp fuse which directly goes to the wire splice behind the cluster.  The ammeter is gone.  I installed a bigger alternator that runs to the starter relay and an 80 amp fuse.  The headlight relay mod was also done.  I also replaced all the inside bulbs with led's.

When I put power to the car, the dome light, map light and console courtesy lights turned on.  Glove box light and trunk light also work.  With the ignition in the on position the stock radio and speaker work, A/C and heater controls work as far as I can tell.  The fan works in all 3 positions as long as A/C, max A/C or DEF are depressed as well.  When I turn the ignition switch off, the fan stops so the switch seems to work so far.

When I flip the light switch into 'park' the parking lamps light up as do the tail lights.  Brake lights, reverse lights, hazard flasher, and turn signals all work.  This includes the hood mounted turn signals and both indicators on the dash.  Wipers and washer work as long as the ignition is on.  The brake emergency lamp lights up when the emergency brake is depressed.  

When the light switch is flipped to 'lights', the relays click and the headlights turn on.  When I depress the foot switch the high beams come on.  Whenever I turn the key, the fuel gauge needle goes up.

Here's the bad:  There are no lights on the dash, none.  No gauges are lit, A/C controls, radio, gear selector are all in the dark.  None of these work.  Pretty sure not all the bulbs are bad.  
When I turn on the high bemas, the red light on the speedometer does not work.

AND, I saved this one for last:  The starter does not turn over when you turn the key.

I never touched the trans switch but did clean that area so I'll check it regardless.  I have my multimeter ready, where do I start?  

Almost forgot, when I removed the steering wheel last year, the small black wire that runs from the wheel to wherever was almost in half so I removed it and put it aside.  I must've thrown it out since it looked like that before making another and I'm unsure where this one goes.  Does it run from the wheel to the turn signal switch on the column?

[70 sublime]

Pretty sure the little black wire in steering column is for the horn

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Make sure the cluster is fully & tightly grounded to the dash frame.....

Also since you bypassed the ammeter, did you join both of the wires from it together?

[Dino]

Yes, the black wire is for the horn.  I forgot to mention I knew that, I just don't know where it's going.     Is it going straight to the bulkhead connector?  I can see myself taking that one out again.   

The cluster is fully grounded.  I did not join the ammeter wires, I removed them and ran new, bigger wiring.  I must've forgotten one somewhere to have partial power like this. 

 

[tan top]

   check the yellow wire on the starter relay has not come off  , for motor not cranking ,

dash lights have a look at the connection to dimmer switch

[Dino]

The yellow wire is in place, I'll measure continuity tomorrow to make sure there's no break anywhere.  The dash dimmer switch seems to work as I can turn the inside lights on and off with it.

I did find something very interesting.  When I looked at the fuse box earlier, everything looked fine.  On closer inspection, the 3 amp fuse on the far right was blown.  That one powers the lights so I thought I had solved half the issue.  I'm not sure if it happens when I hook up the battery or turn on the ignition or lights, but the fuse keeps blowing.  I had no 3 amp fuses but a few 4's and have blown 2 of those.  I have no clue why it's doing this, I'm going to have to trace back those wires.

Keep the ideas coming folks!

[PlainfieldCharger]

Did you install a "new modern" dimmer switch? if you did the connections on the back are different locations. Just a thought my car acted similar with the interior lights when I put mine in. 

[Dino]

Did you install a "new modern" dimmer switch? if you did the connections on the back are different locations. Just a thought my car acted similar with the interior lights when I put mine in. 

I did not change any switches.  All I did to the cluster was add the led's and the volt meter. 

I checked the wiring diagram and can't figure out why the fuse blows.

[Dino]

I have a spare dimmer switch so I'll give that one a shot.  No clue why the current one would get shorted though.

[Dino]

I changed the dimmer switch and found the high beam indicator bulb was not hooked up so that now works as well.  Still no gauge lights but the fuse seems to be okay now although a bit of the glass turned a bit cloudy.  Now I'm really confused.  You'd think the dash lights would work if the fuse is good.  I did not change all bulbs to leds and it's a bit strange that all the ones in the dash that do work are the stock bulbs: brake warning, turn signal indicators, high beam indicator.  The gauge lights are leds but so are the dome, map, glove box and trunk lights and those do work.

Ignition switch will still not turn over the starter but bridging the two relay studs makes the starter turn so the relay is good.

I am clueless...

[MaximRecoil]

Ignition switch will still not turn over the starter but bridging the two relay studs makes the starter turn so the relay is good.

That doesn't mean your starter relay is good, because when you bridge it like that, you are bypassing its normal function. You could remove the starter relay altogether and then touch the wire that goes to the starter solenoid with the wire that goes to the battery and you'd get the same result, so you can't discount the possibility that the starter relay is bad just yet.

To test the function of the starter relay, remove the yellow and brown wires from it, then connect +12 VDC to the terminal tab where the yellow wire was, and touch a ground wire to the terminal tab where the brown wire was. If this turns the starter over, your starter relay is good.

As for the neutral safety switch (the switch on the transmission), have you tried shifting the shift lever down to low and back to park a few times and then trying to start it? To definitely rule out the neutral safety switch, leave the yellow wire connected to the starter relay but remove the brown wire (the brown wire goes to the center terminal of the NSS), and then run a ground wire to the terminal tab it was connected to. Try to start it with the key. If it turns over, the problem was with the NSS (assuming you first determined that the starter relay was good). If it doesn't turn over, the problem is with the ignition switch or its wiring.

[Dino]

Ignition switch will still not turn over the starter but bridging the two relay studs makes the starter turn so the relay is good.

That doesn't mean your starter relay is good, because when you bridge it like that, you are bypassing its normal function. You could remove the starter relay altogether and then touch the wire that goes to the starter solenoid with the wire that goes to the battery and you'd get the same result, so you can't discount the possibility that the starter relay is bad just yet. To test the function of the starter relay, remove the yellow and brown wires from it, then connect +12 VDC to the terminal tab where the yellow wire was, and touch a ground wire to the terminal tab where the brown wire was. If this turns the starter over, your starter relay is good.

As for the neutral safety switch (the switch on the transmission), have you tried shifting the shift lever down to low and back to park a few times and then trying to start it? To definitely rule out the neutral safety switch, leave the yellow wire connected to the starter relay but remove the brown wire (the brown wire goes to the center terminal of the NSS) from the starter relay and then run a ground wire to the terminal tab it was connected to. Try to start it with the key; if it turns over, the problem was with the NSS (assuming you first determined that the starter relay was good). If it doesn't turn over, the problem is with the ignition switch or its wiring.

Awesome!  I'll try those out shortly

I was just messing with the dash lights.  I removed the cluster and checked for continuity at the dimmer switch's brown wire between switch and fuse box and all is well there.  Same goes for the orange wire leaving the fuse box, continuity with all bulb sockets.  I then hooked up the light switch and the dimmer switch with alligator clips running to the dash for ground and I grounded one of the orange wire sockets and guess what?  The light works.  I looked at the radio and the A/C controls and both are lit up with the light switch in park or lights.  Before that I looked for power at the fuse with a test light and it didn't work.  Maybe I unshorted whatever the issue was by removing the cluster.  I'll find out in a minute when I put it back!

You wouldn't happen to know where the short black tracer wire goes that comes from the horn button?

[MaximRecoil]

You wouldn't happen to know where the short black tracer wire goes that comes from the horn button?

The black horn wire which has a flag terminal and connects to a terminal tab behind the steering wheel?



I believe that wire goes out to the bulkhead connector, and then from the other side of the bulkhead connector it goes out to the horn relay. I'm not sure if it goes into the Molex-type connector under the steering column before getting to the bulkhead connector or not. Its function is to provide a trigger for the horn relay. A hot wire is constantly connected to the relay, but the relay's trigger wire is interrupted at the horn switch. When the horn switch is pressed, it completes the trigger circuit to the relay, which blows the horn.

[Pete in NH]

HI Dino,

I just saw your PM. It looks like Maxim has the starter relay issue covered and you are on your way getting the dash lights working.

On the horn wire, your 69 has a different set up than my 71 which has a small roller contact or spring loaded button contact on the directional switch assembly that contacts the horn ring on the steering wheel. I'm not sure how they did it in 69. I think there may have been a small slip on "fast on" terminal on a short wire from the horn button on the steering wheel. I suspect that fast on terminal when to a small matching tab on the directional switch assembly. IF you have the steering wheel off and can post a picture of the directional switch assembly perhaps we can locate it.

I just saw Maxim's post  looks like he's got the horn switch covered too.

[Dino]

I thought the horn button wire was much shorter, ie it couldn't get all the way to the bulkhead connector but I'll check it out.  All I recall is that it hooks up to a small spade on the wheel.  I'll snap a pic of it and post back.

The working dash lights were just temporarily it seems as they quit working as soon as I put the cluster back.  I removed it again and tried the same trick again with the leads and it works briefly before it blows the fuse again.  I am down to my last one.  I tried with a 10A fuse even and that one blew as well.  So the issue is I'm getting too many amps through this fuse but why?  As long as the fuse stays put I think all the dash lights work.  The radio and heater controls lit up as well.

I'll try the starter relay now, that seems a bit less aggravating...

[Dino]

Alright a bit more news:  the starter relay checks out fine but the neutral safety switch does not.  With the yellow wire on the relay and a ground wire in place of the nss's brown, the car turns over when I turn the key.  I'll crawl under the car and try to find the culprit but at least I now know it's not the ignitions switch!

My steering wheel is still off so I snapped a pic of the steering column and turn signal switch.  I have no clue where this wire goes.

[Dino]

I found one more glass fuse in my garage and it's a 15A fuse.  I know it's 5 times what it calls for but I thought I'd give it a quick try.  Whatever is causing more amps to flow through this fuse, 15 seems to be sufficient as all the dash lights now work.  I know it's not a fix but at least now I know the lights themselves are fine.  I had to change my dimmer switch again as the bulbs only went on or off with the one I had in the cluster.  I installed the other and they now dim. 

A/C controls, radio, and ash tray lights all work.  Ignition lamp and buzzer do not work, nor does the shifter selector light.

Strange stuff...

[Pete in NH]

Dino,

That directional switch is similar to my 71 except my 71 has the emergency flasher switch built in on the right hand side. In your photo, on the upper right hand side is the spring loaded button post for your horn. If you turn your steering wheel over you should see a copper ring this button post rides on this ring to complete the horn circuit. There should be a very short wire that connects this copper ring to the actual horn button assembly in the steering wheel hub.

I'm curious about those LED's you're using and how much current they draw. Can you point me toward a spec sheet or post one. Also, how many are you using in your whole dash assembly?

[PlainfieldCharger]

I found one more glass fuse in my garage and it's a 15A fuse.  I know it's 5 times what it calls for but I thought I'd give it a quick try.  Whatever is causing more amps to flow through this fuse, 15 seems to be sufficient as all the dash lights now work.  I know it's not a fix but at least now I know the lights themselves are fine.  I had to change my dimmer switch again as the bulbs only went on or off with the one I had in the cluster.  I installed the other and they now dim. 

A/C controls, radio, and ash tray lights all work.  Ignition lamp and buzzer do not work, nor does the shifter selector light.

Strange stuff...

Bad switch or ground. I would not put that in the box. That is what causes fires.....

[Dino]

I'm such an idiot, I forgot that short horn wire went to the wheel itself.  Duh...     Alright that part can be considered fixed then, thanks guys.   

I cleaned up the NSS and the socket and all is well on that front as well, the car now turns over with the key.   

I do not intend to use the 15A fuse, I only wanted to test it out.  If that's what the led's need then fine but until I'm sure that's the case, I'm leaving the fuse out for now.

Pete these are the bulbs I bought, two different kinds.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-T11-BA9S-5-x-5050-SMD-LED-White-Super-Bright-Car-Lights-Lamp-Bulb-/110996849220?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d7ed8244&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-T10-194-168-2825-5-x-5050-SMD-LED-White-Super-Bright-Car-Lights-Lamp-Bulb-/120960153862?pt=US_Car_Lighting&hash=item1c29c97906&vxp=mtr

I have 3 of the wedge type, 2nd link, in the circuit board.  That's all it takes.  And there are, I believe, 3 of the bayonet type lighting up the speedometer and clock.  The turn signal indicators, high beam indicator, and brake warning are all stock bulbs.

I can't get the gear selector or ignition lamp and buzzer to work so I'm going over the wiring diagrams again.  The buzzer always worked but the ignition lamp was incomplete so I just added one.  I bench tested it and it works...just not in the car. 

[Pete in NH]

Dino,

I just looked at the LED specs. you referenced. Did you notice the statement about not lighting and reverse polarity protection? I was wondering about that because LED's are diodes which means current can only flow one way and they are polarity sensitive If one LED in the whole string is in  a reversed direction the protection diode built into the lamp assembly with be almost a dead short to ground. It will protect the LED but it's going to blow fuses. All your LED's must be installed  with the right polarity. You might need to make up a little single bulb test fixture and mark the positive voltage side when the lamp lights, then install them in the dash with the marked side to the positive supply source. None of this is an issue with old technology incandescent lamps.

[Dino]

Dino,

I just looked at the LED specs. you referenced. Did you notice the statement about not lighting and reverse polarity protection? I was wondering about that because LED's are diodes which means current can only flow one way and they are polarity sensitive If one LED in the whole string is in  a reversed direction the protection diode built into the lamp assembly with be almost a dead short to ground. It will protect the LED but it's going to blow fuses. All your LED's must be installed  with the right polarity. You might need to make up a little single bulb test fixture and mark the positive voltage side when the lamp lights, then install them in the dash with the marked side to the positive supply source. None of this is an issue with old technology incandescent lamps.

Pete I read right over that.  That would explain it wouldn't it?  I removed some of the bulbs to test the wiring and then put them back, I wondered if one of those was in wrong and is now back where it should.  I'll stick that last 3 amp fuse in there and see if it still works. 

I'm not sure how to find the positive side on one of these but I'll give it a shot!

[Dino]

Found out some more:  With the cluster out there are 3 orange wires with bulbs that go to the speed and clock.  I hooked up my light switch and dimmer, grounded them all and grounded each bulb socket individually to see what would happen,  Bulbs 1 and 2 lit up but when I touched ground to the 3rd socket sparks flew.  The bulb itself was shorted and came apart in my hand.  That makes a total of 6 out of 10 bayonet bulbs that were bad.  If anyone is planning on buying LED's, DO NOT BUY THESE!!!

I only have one more bulb and it works with the 15A fuse, now I need to find out if it works with a 3A fuse but that means I have to go shop, I'm out.

What a friggin' headache to have some dash lights huh?

[Dino]

Well looks like the bulb was the culprit.  I got new fuses, stuck a 3A fuse in the box and tested those 3 bulbs again with a few leads and all is well! 

Now all I have to figure out is why the ignition lamp and buzzer, and the gear selector light are not working.

[PlainfieldCharger]

  you'll get those too!!