Totalled 69 daytona in 1971 Newspaper story archive most likely XX29L9B402977

[nascarxx29]

http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031653/1974-08-07/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1969&city=&date2=1974&words=Charger+Daytona&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=1&county=&rows=20&proxtext=CHARGER+DAYTONA&y=12&x=11&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1  to enlarge roll center of mouse

The mangled daytona in this post XX29L9B402977 and was from Cicero

Dodge       http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=44932.25

[tan top]

interesting  ! good find , thanks for posting 

[69DAYTONASE]

I was just told of a totaled Daytona that sat under a tree at an old farmhouse up around the Sandy Creek area and that it was sold and the vin tag put on a Charger 500 body shell that was for sale for 60k a few years back....same car?

[nascarxx29]

Probably you never know a Daytona vin on a 500 is easy to detect by the series of numbers differed from 500 to daytona.Most look for the XX29

[Nwcharger]

I was just told of a totaled Daytona that sat under a tree at an old farmhouse up around the Sandy Creek area and that it was sold and the vin tag put on a Charger 500 body shell that was for sale for 60k a few years back....same car?

I don't think so. I know the guy the has this car and I know he bought it wadded up.

[nascarxx29]

Way back in MCG I recall seeing a ad just for a motor and trans from a total wrecked Daytona in NY name might been Scott

[500Jon]

Hi Nw,

Great collection of cars you have there!
Can you explain wadded-up for me please.
We are back to the Daytona rebody topic again methinks?
It is quite acceptable to build a 'KITCAR' and register it with a donor car logbook(title)
So why is it unacceptable to re-shell a wrecked/burnt-out car?
Using a C500 as a donor makes perfect sense but any 69 Charger body will be the same.

Then someone in the know, like Galen can verify its authenticity of its rebuilt standard!
Simples!!!
5J

[69DAYTONASE]

Just for the sake of discussion lets say you have a car that is wrecked or rotted to the point that you are replacing 80% of the structure & sheet metal with aftermarket. It would actually be better to buy a body shell out of a southwest boneyard that otherwise would be crushed. Then you are saving 2 cars and its more "Ma Mopar", in the end you would have a better car for less money than replacing all that metal. You would be restoring it with a factory body shell.
Most Model T Fords are not original sheet metal or engine, yet look how big that segment of the hobby is.
WW2 Warbirds are BIG money.There are crashed birds being recovered and restored all the time, and it is perfectly accepted. In fact, it is "celebrated".
Point being it saves a piece of automotive history, I think the problem arises when a restoration isn't documented publically in the hobby and a seller tries to pass it off as "all original".
Personally, it would be a joyous thing to see a totaled Daytona saved by re-bodying....then the machine lives on. As long as the rebody is publically documented......why not!

[odcics2]

Just for the sake of discussion lets say you have a car that is wrecked or rotted to the point that you are replacing 80% of the structure & sheet metal with aftermarket. It would actually be better to buy a body shell out of a southwest boneyard that otherwise would be crushed. Then you are saving 2 cars and its more "Ma Mopar", in the end you would have a better car for less money than replacing all that metal. You would be restoring it with a factory body shell.
Most Model T Fords are not original sheet metal or engine, yet look how big that segment of the hobby is.
WW2 Warbirds are BIG money.There are crashed birds being recovered and restored all the time, and it is perfectly accepted. In fact, it is "celebrated".
Point being it saves a piece of automotive history, I think the problem arises when a restoration isn't documented publically in the hobby and a seller tries to pass it off as "all original".
Personally, it would be a joyous thing to see a totaled Daytona saved by re-bodying....then the machine lives on. As long as the rebody is publically documented......why not!

Errrrrr, because it's a felony ?   

[odcics2]

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]


TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in
paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the
vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for
the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with
or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term--
(1) ``identification number'' means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ``motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;
(3) ``motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged
in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to
metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle
or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ``motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person--
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor
vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap
for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;

but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part
as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
``tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to
a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for
the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

(Added Pub. L. 98-547, title II, Sec. 201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat.
2768; amended Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat.
1373; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXII, Sec. 220003(a)-(c), Sept. 13, 1994,
108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104-294, title VI, Sec. 604(b)(, Oct.
11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)

References in Text

The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs.
(a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103-322, Sept. 13,
1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and
section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this
section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of
Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short
Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.

Codification

Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.


Amendments

1996--Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104-294 realigned margins.
1994--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(a), amended subsec.
(a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows:
``Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall
be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.''
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(b), added subpar.
(D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(A), substituted
``chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49'' for ``the National
Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(B), substituted
``section 32101 of title 49'' for ``section 2 of the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(c), added subsec. (d).


Effective Date of 1996 Amendment

Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section
604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section 13 of this
title.

[69DAYTONASE]

But it's ok to rebody a totaled car with aftermarket parts? I mean, where is "the line"? If the dash/VIN plate/firewall are there and you build a car out from it that's OK but swapping those over to a shell isn't?
So if you build a shell with aftermarket parts it's legal, but if you buy a shell(used or new) it's not?
The aftermarket already supplies complete body's for 47-53 GM pickups, 69 Camaro, '30's Fords, as well as others. I don't think it will be to long before Mopar body's appear. So what's the difference between this and a used body shell?
So if I buy one of these body shells to use for a resto it's a felony?

[held1823]

if you bought one of those body shells for a restoration, why would you need to swap the numbers from another car to that body?

the shell already has a VIN - the VIN of the car you'd actually be restoring

[69DAYTONASE]

Shell means no VIN numbers on it at all, whether a new shell or used

[held1823]

not exactly. to quote your earlier post

Just for the sake of discussion lets say you have a car that is wrecked or rotted to the point that you are replacing 80% of the structure & sheet metal with aftermarket. It would actually be better to buy a body shell out of a southwest boneyard that otherwise would be crushed. Then you are saving 2 cars and its more "Ma Mopar", in the end you would have a better car for less money than replacing all that metal. You would be restoring it with a factory body shell.

"saving two cars"  is a bit of stretch by any measure. a boneyard shell DOES have a vin, the one that was assigned to it by the manufacture when new. what possible reason would you have to place the vin from a junk vehicle on a better condition shell? what do you then do with the undesirable vin and 80% rotted car that you are also saving? the truthful reason is exactly why your proposal is a felony.

dynacorn offers vin-less aftermarket shells and links to every state's policy on titling a custom built car, which is exactly what the shell is. can you name a single state that allows a vin plate from an original car to be affixed to that shell?

[69DAYTONASE]

Then by this logic anybody who restores a totaled car is committing a felony since any parts used out of a junkyard to restore that car have come from a car with a different VIN and therefore should only be used on the car that carried that VIN right? Because we can't play favorites with parts. That means every junkyard that sells parts is aiding in the commission of a felony by the purchaser.
I guess everyone should un-restore their car then....right? If in the process of restoring a car the part that has the VIN stamp on it becomes detached from the car, the person detaching it is committing a felony. Right? It is reasonable then to say that easily HALF, if not more, of the people involved in this hobby are felons.

[Nwcharger]

I have bought lots of cars from junk yards over the years and it really depends on if it comes with a vin that is valid or not. This is how I've known it to work. Once a car gos to the yard its up to the owner to turn I the title to the state. When the state gets the title that vin is no longer good to register as its been labled as scrap. I've bought a couple old vw's when I played with baja bugs this way and they are sold solely for parts. Then there's other times that I've bought cars from the junkyard that the owner decided to sell while rather than turning in the title to the state as scrap. So to me once the vin on the car is labled scrap threw the state its parts car with junk numbers. I'm still collecting parts for my Daytona and hope to have it together some day, and I plan on documenting it from start to finish to show that I saved all that I can. I really dont care about the negative comments about it because its my car.

[talkiemopar]

You said it John, it's YOUR CAR. Go for it. Rick.

[held1823]

Then by this logic anybody who restores a totaled car is committing a felony since any parts used out of a junkyard to restore that car have come from a car with a different VIN and therefore should only be used on the car that carried that VIN right? Because we can't play favorites with parts. That means every junkyard that sells parts is aiding in the commission of a felony by the purchaser.
I guess everyone should un-restore their car then....right? If in the process of restoring a car the part that has the VIN stamp on it becomes detached from the car, the person detaching it is committing a felony. Right? It is reasonable then to say that easily HALF, if not more, of the people involved in this hobby are felons.

restoring a totaled/salvage/junked/etc vehicle results in a salvage title, and the same vin remains with the rebuilt vehicle. that is entirely different than what you proposed to do. if it is not, why would you bother to move the vin number from a rotted car to one you are repairing? simple answer - $$$; for example a superbird vin trumps one for a satellite donor shell, even though the satellite is the car being "restored".

you are partially correct regarding vin stamps on parts. vin stamping has expanded over the years to identify more and more components of an individual vehicle. the goal was to combat auto theft, and reputable salvage yards will keep close tabs on making sure their parts cars are indeed salvage titled. one of the largest late model junkyards around was near here, and operated in a gray area that came back to bite them a few years ago. slightly different motive, but an interesting take on why swapping VIN plates is frowned upon.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1364951.html

bonus points to anyone (other than schellinger) for making a race connection to the yard.

[69DAYTONASE]

Right John, precisely my point. Whatever parts you need to buy to save your car whether its a pair of fenders or a body shell hulk, it's your car and it's up to the owner's discretion as to what route he should take. It's his money, and buying a body shell hulk would save a lot of time, money, and result in a better restoration in the end. If the process is publically documented what's the big deal?
There are people commenting here who are trying to spin my words on their head to make a point they don't need to for the sake of being argumentative.
Anyone who reads what I have written above should know I am NOT advocating swapping VINS to a lesser but better condition car for the later purpose of profit. Obviously that is illegal and unethical.
I am talking about using junkyard parts to save a car that would otherwise be reconstructed using aftermarket parts.
The advantage in using junkyard parts is in the restoration labor/time/parts cost savings.
You're saving a Daytona that may otherwise have been junked, It will be exciting to see your project as it's moving along. A historic venture actually!

I have bought lots of cars from junk yards over the years and it really depends on if it comes with a vin that is valid or not. This is how I've known it to work. Once a car gos to the yard its up to the owner to turn I the title to the state. When the state gets the title that vin is no longer good to register as its been labled as scrap. I've bought a couple old vw's when I played with baja bugs this way and they are sold solely for parts. Then there's other times that I've bought cars from the junkyard that the owner decided to sell while rather than turning in the title to the state as scrap. So to me once the vin on the car is labled scrap threw the state its parts car with junk numbers. I'm still collecting parts for my Daytona and hope to have it together some day, and I plan on documenting it from start to finish to show that I saved all that I can. I really dont care about the negative comments about it because its my car.

[Highwaystar]

The crime code specified above, I believe was designed to keep current cars from being stolen. In the case of 40 - 50 year old cars being re-bodied for the sake of saving the car that otherwise would take a small fortune in sheet metal or not be salvaged at all. I say let it happen, as long as it is made public. Maybe there needs to be a new Title code for such a car, for the sake of saving these cars and VIN's with limited production numbers. It is nicer to save a Super bird VIN vs. a Satellite VIN , especially if there are a few unique items from that Super bird you can save along with the numbers, even if it is the original door panels, few pieces of chrome, ashtray, seatbelt, etc. Its like an Archaeologist when he finds a few bones from a dig site, you may make the rest to complete the skeleton, so that it will preserve the Discovery/Artifact for our ancestors to enjoy.

[moparnation74]

I agree, this car will be a rebody and should be titled accordingly per the state

My hat is off to the owner to take on a restoration of this magnitude.  I suggest to start a thread on that process.

[odcics2]

Then by this logic anybody who restores a totaled car is committing a felony since any parts used out of a junkyard to restore that car have come from a car with a different VIN and therefore should only be used on the car that carried that VIN right? Because we can't play favorites with parts. That means every junkyard that sells parts is aiding in the commission of a felony by the purchaser.
I guess everyone should un-restore their car then....right? If in the process of restoring a car the part that has the VIN stamp on it becomes detached from the car, the person detaching it is committing a felony. Right? It is reasonable then to say that easily HALF, if not more, of the people involved in this hobby are felons.

restoring a totaled/salvage/junked/etc vehicle results in a salvage title, and the same vin remains with the rebuilt vehicle. that is entirely different than what you proposed to do. if it is not, why would you bother to move the vin number from a rotted car to one you are repairing? simple answer - $$$; for example a superbird vin trumps one for a satellite donor shell, even though the satellite is the car being "restored".

you are partially correct regarding vin stamps on parts. vin stamping has expanded over the years to identify more and more components of an individual vehicle. the goal was to combat auto theft, and reputable salvage yards will keep close tabs on making sure their parts cars are indeed salvage titled. one of the largest late model junkyards around was near here, and operated in a gray area that came back to bite them a few years ago. slightly different motive, but an interesting take on why swapping VIN plates is frowned upon.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1364951.html

bonus points to anyone (other than schellinger) for making a race connection to the yard.

The #14 USAC Charger... sponsored by Pierce Auto!

Now, tell me I win a vintage nascar elactronic distributor!   

[held1823]

Right John, precisely my point. Whatever parts you need to buy to save your car whether its a pair of fenders or a body shell hulk, it's your car and it's up to the owner's discretion as to what route he should take. It's his money, and buying a body shell hulk would save a lot of time, money, and result in a better restoration in the end. If the process is publically documented what's the big deal?
There are people commenting here who are trying to spin my words on their head to make a point they don't need to for the sake of being argumentative.
Anyone who reads what I have written above should know I am NOT advocating swapping VINS to a lesser but better condition car for the later purpose of profit. Obviously that is illegal and unethical.
I am talking about using junkyard parts to save a car that would otherwise be reconstructed using aftermarket parts.
The advantage in using junkyard parts is in the restoration labor/time/parts cost savings.
You're saving a Daytona that may otherwise have been junked, It will be exciting to see your project as it's moving along. A historic venture actually!

call it argumentative or whatever the hell other word you choose, but no one is spinning your words except for you. the car you are restoring in your scenario is no longer the more desirable car once you move its numbers over to the less desirable shell. (a shell that you originally claimed never had any numbers of its own). if you are not swapping numbers for profit, exactly what are you doing? certainly not saving the more desirable car.

you are committing a felony. what part of that does not sink in?  

[held1823]

The crime code specified above, I believe was designed to keep current cars from being stolen.

that's more or less what i said when i referred to it being for a different motive? i disagree it concerns only current cars, however. the intent of the law is for a vin to live and die on a specific vehicle, regardless of the vintage.


regardless, the point was to counter a wild-ass hypothesis that using any junk yard part would be illegal. there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way.

[held1823]

The #14 USAC Charger... sponsored by Pierce Auto!

Now, tell me I win a vintage nascar elactronic distributor!   

dammit, greg, i forgot you were in the conversation. lol

[moparnation74]

Reading this I am having flashbacks of LEE1

[69DAYTONASE]

Right John, precisely my point. Whatever parts you need to buy to save your car whether its a pair of fenders or a body shell hulk, it's your car and it's up to the owner's discretion as to what route he should take. It's his money, and buying a body shell hulk would save a lot of time, money, and result in a better restoration in the end. If the process is publically documented what's the big deal?
There are people commenting here who are trying to spin my words on their head to make a point they don't need to for the sake of being argumentative.
Anyone who reads what I have written above should know I am NOT advocating swapping VINS to a lesser but better condition car for the later purpose of profit. Obviously that is illegal and unethical.
I am talking about using junkyard parts to save a car that would otherwise be reconstructed using aftermarket parts.
The advantage in using junkyard parts is in the restoration labor/time/parts cost savings.
You're saving a Daytona that may otherwise have been junked, It will be exciting to see your project as it's moving along. A historic venture actually!

call it argumentative or whatever the hell other word you choose, but no one is spinning your words except for you. the car you are restoring in your scenario is no longer the more desirable car once you move its numbers over to the less desirable shell. (a shell that you originally claimed never had any numbers of its own). if you are not swapping numbers for profit, exactly what are you doing? certainly not saving the more desirable car.

you are committing a felony. what part of that does not sink in?  

Preserving automotive/personal history for one. You are the one who speculates it is being done for profit, not me. The majority of people I know are in it for sentimental reasons of one kind or another-NOT for the money! In most cases(if not all)the cost of restoring a car that has damage that extensive far exceeds the amount you could sell the car for. 

[held1823]

Preserving automotive/personal history for one.

the lesser car is also automotive history. why not preserve it and let the junk one be the sacrificial lamb?

You are the one who speculates it is being done for profit, not me. The majority of people I know are in it for sentimental reasons of one kind or another-NOT for the money! 

if it's not the money, then why are the numbers so important? redo the lesser car, or turn it into a clone/tribute/insert today's chic word/ of the one too far gone. 

In most cases(if not all)the cost of restoring a car that has damage that extensive far exceeds the amount you could sell the car for. 

the most accurate statement you've made. if it's a sentimental thing, recouping the cost shouldn't be the main concern, although swapping the numbers sure makes that easier to do, doesn't it?

i imagine the audience is tired of the debate. i know i am. we can go back and forth forever, but personal opinions aside, the law is the law.

[69DAYTONASE]

You are absolutely right, I too am tired of the debate. Particularly when the debater doesn't stay on topic and misses completely the main point. How many times can a theme be restated? Anyway, it's been fun. Don't get too dizzy.

[held1823]

your main point about VIN fraud being ok when it's solely for altruistic or sentimental reasons? naaa, i got that from your very first post about it

Personally, it would be a joyous thing to see a totaled Daytona saved by re-bodying....then the machine lives on. As long as the rebody is publically documented......why not!

after all, this number on this body is just as nice as the body it was intended for