Should Anti-Seize Or Lubricant Be Used On Lug Nuts?

[Old Moparz]

Simple question really, should anti-seize or lubricant be used on the lug nuts?  

I read mixed results with a google search whether it should be used or not, but wanted to ask for a few more opinions. The problem is with my Wife's Mitsubishi & the nimrods that put the wheels on the car after the last inspection or tire rotation. They cross threaded one & of course tightened it to 98,000 pounds with the impact gun so when I went to remove it the stud snapped off. I ended up having to buy an entire set of lug nuts to replace them since many were all chewed up.

In the past with all my old cars, I simply cleaned up the studs with a wire brush every time I had a wheel off. I sprayed a small amount of WD-40 while I did this & wiped the stud. I know it left a thin coat, but I never had a lug nut loosen up in the 35 years I've done this. Any time after that I never had to gorilla the lug nuts off with a 6 foot long breaker bar.    On my Wife's car today I had to slide a pipe over a 1/2" breaker bar just to crack them loose.  

So what are your thoughts on anti-seize or a lubricant on the studs?

[JB400]

Now you know why I request that my lug nuts be torqued by hand to 100 ft. lbs.  As far as lubricating the threads, I personally don't do it.  I might spray one that is difficult to remove, but that would be the only reason.  You might want to put some anti seize on the hub face though if you're running aluminum wheels.  It keeps them from sticking.

[Aero426]

My tire guy says no.     Do I still use a little anti sieze on wheel studs that see weather and that I won't have apart for a long while?    Yes.     Hand torque and recheck them later.

[Davtona]

To me by torquing / tightening the lug nut you are essentially stretching the nut and stud threads. That is what causes the nut to tighten up. What difference would lubing the threads make as far as the nut coming loose. If anything the lube may give a more accurate torque on the nuts. I don't see how having the threads lubed would cause the nut to loosen up. 

[stripedelete]

I use never-seize on studs and anywhere rim makes contact.  Never had a problem.

On the truck, I also grease the crap out of anything that has to move in order to get the spare tire off.

[Ghoste]

I always do and have for decades.  I also have never had a problem.

[ws23rt]

IMO some kind of lubricant on the threads is better than none. If the threads are dry every time they are torqued they will wear from the scraping action of dry metal to metal. Sometimes that can be balling up of the metal that gets worse as the screw thread turns. --Galling--

Think of screw threads as a simple machine. The idea of clamping parts together is to stretch the fastener like a linear spring and hold it.  Screw threads are a way to do this.

Most bolt thread torque charts refer to values as lubricated or not as it takes more torque to stretch a bolt with dry threads (more friction) than a lubricated one.

In the case of lug nuts they are ment to be used over and over so the simple machine needs some lubrication.

If the clamping force is correct (bolt stretch) the connection will stay put.  A nut can't vibriate loose untill the stretch is released. If the parts being clamped move around or wiggle to perhaps loosen the bolt than they are not tight enough to begin with.

[Slowpoke]

I agree with the hand torque and a film of anti seize method.
When I have a shop change the tires or do anything else that requires the wheels to be removed
I always re-torque the nuts when I get home, have found some extremely over tightened ones that way.

[Ghoste]

FWIW, its my understanding that a lot of factory torque values are determined with lubricant. 

[bill440rt]

I've done it both with & without anti-seize. Haven't had a problem.
As mentioned it does help putting some on the aluminum wheel mating surface. No more kicking the tire loose!

[Old Moparz]

So most have done the same thing that I have done for years (lubricate the lug studs) & nobody seems to have had lug nuts loosen up. I went back out & put a drop of 3 in 1 oil inside the threads of the nuts & put them on. I'll check it later on after some miles of driving to see what happens.

Thanks. 

[Indygenerallee]

I always use anti-seize on studs, and also make sure to use a medium 3M roloc pad to clean the mounting surface  (rim mounting surface and drum or disc mounting surface)

[Cooter]

With the amount of rust and heat generated today on today's cars, no grease is asking for trouble.
Everything works better with lube. How many here oil the door hinges? Trunk/hood??
Door/hood/trunk latches???

[Indygenerallee]

yep, grease door latches and hinges, even go as far as greasing the gas filler door hinge! 

[DougMN]

The only time I ever snapped off lug bolts was when I used antiseize.

[kab69440]

I use Never-Seez on mine.

[will]

Let me guess, Mavis Discount Tire. I had that happen years ago. I won't use thread lubricant on tire studs because my wheels almost came off one night after I did. I think you'd be ok with a layer of aerokroil or some other penetrant.

[Old Moparz]

Let me guess, Mavis Discount Tire. I had that happen years ago. I won't use thread lubricant on tire studs because my wheels almost came off one night after I did. I think you'd be ok with a layer of aerokroil or some other penetrant.

Not Mavis, I won't go there because of their deceitful pricing structure on tires 25 years ago.    A pair of $50 tires on a $100 car cost me more than the car after they charged me separately for mounting, dismounting, balancing, new air, valve stems, disposal fees on old air, valve caps, etc.   

It's a Monro shop, but the huge turnover of employees is a huge red flag. 

I'll recheck the lugs periodically but I never had issues since I started driving in 1980.

[ACUDANUT]

WD40 every time I have to remove the lug nuts.

[John_Kunkel]

Every recent FSM that I've seen contains a warning "do not use oil or grease on lug stud threads".

[69rtse4spd]

Anti-Seize on all my nuts, on everthing, 90 foot pounds, 100 on the trailers, more on the one ton. Never had one fall off, & evertime I have the dealer or tire shop do anything, a bitch to get them off, that's why 90 lbs. 

[MaximRecoil]

Greased threads are always better than dry threads from a functional perspective. However, there may be some cases where there is a specific reason not to grease the threads. There is also the issue with torque specifications; i.e., you have to know if they are for greased or dry threads.

[ws23rt]

I will stick with my opinion that threads that are intended to be used over and over need to be protected from wear.

The FSM may have recommended dry threads but this could well have been for reasons other than the life of the stud threads.

[LaOtto70Charger]

There would be a very good reason to not use a lubricant on the threads if recommended not too.  That means the recommended torque specs from the bolt manufacturers does not consider the decreased coefficient of frictiion from lubrication and the increased stretch and stress in the bolt.  By adding lubrication you are potentially decreasing the life of the stud and making a failure more likely. 

[MaximRecoil]

There would be a very good reason to not use a lubricant on the threads if recommended not too.  That means the recommended torque specs from the bolt manufacturers does not consider the decreased coefficient of frictiion from lubrication and the increased stretch and stress in the bolt.  By adding lubrication you are potentially decreasing the life of the stud and making a failure more likely.  

That's only a problem if you don't adjust the torque specifications (as a general rule of thumb, use 25% less torque for greased threads than dry threads), but there are many variables which affect torque readings (the torque specs usually assume not only dry threads [unless otherwise stated], but also perfectly clean threads in perfect condition, and a perfectly accurate torque wrench). Fortunately, the lug nuts application is pretty tolerant of a wide range of torque; I would guess that most cars on the road didn't have their lugs nuts tightened to any specification with a torque wrench, but rather, were haphazardly zipped on by some random grease monkey with an air impact wrench when it last got a brake job, tire change, etc.

[A383Wing]

I will stick with my opinion that threads that are intended to be used over and over need to be protected from wear.

I have always used some sort of lube on the thread studs...one time I didn't and the lug nut seized on the stud...had to use impact to break lug stud and replace

[ws23rt]

There would be a very good reason to not use a lubricant on the threads if recommended not too.  That means the recommended torque specs from the bolt manufacturers does not consider the decreased coefficient of frictiion from lubrication and the increased stretch and stress in the bolt.  By adding lubrication you are potentially decreasing the life of the stud and making a failure more likely. 

Adding lubrication to a thread will not reduce the life of the stud. 
If one pulls the stud passed its yield point than the life of the stud will be shortened --oops--

A stud needs to be pulled about 75% of it's yield for most applications.  (Yield is the point where the stud gets longer without increase torque).  Btw if the stud is pulling apart (yield) it is coming apart.

Adding lubrication to the threads will reduce the torque required to reach the studs proper stretch. Generally 75% of the yield point for a given fastner.

[ws23rt]

I will stick with my opinion that threads that are intended to be used over and over need to be protected from wear.

I have always used some sort of lube on the thread studs...one time I didn't and the lug nut seized on the stud...had to use impact to break lug stud and replace

I have been there myself.  I had a nut sieze on the stud on the way off to the point that the press fit of the stud came loose.

So now what do we do?---Had to cut the nut and stud off without causing damage to the rim. ( Not easy) And the press fit bore on the axial was toast.

The stuff is called anti sieze for a reason.

[tan top]

 long time a go ( 25 plus years ago ) , I read or was told , I forget !!  never to put anti seize or any lube or  on  the wheel studs or lug nuts , but  !  on the charger when I first got it , i did , put anti seize /copper grease on each stud , but wiped it mostly off  , & been like that ever since , done the same  putting it back after the resto too ,  the studs are not smothered in the stuff , by the time I wiped most off ! its just a ever so thin covering in the grooves of the thread .  
also I always use torque wrench  ,  plus use antiseize grease on hub centre ring to wheel centre , & back of wheel mounting face , especially on aluminum wheels  

[dyslexic teddybear]

For 30+ years

Anti-seize or grease.

Drive a bit and recheck torque.

DRW.....recheck multiple times.

Doesn't take long to recheck torque.......you may get a surprise .....an may well prevent a BIG surprise.

[John_Kunkel]

That's another issue, how do you "recheck" torque? Use the same wrench setting and see if it moves?

If you don't loosen each nut before retorqueing you haven't "checked" anything.
 

[dyslexic teddybear]

Interesting point.

Yes, there would be a "proper" technique.

Personally use the "see if it moves at the right torque" method. Believe it to be better then "tighten once and forget it". Measuring the bolt/stud stretch seems overkill.

Most times, I will see a small amount of movement on a couple of nuts out of 20. If any move much, you got a warning to check further. Worth the time to prevent  

This likely comes from my heavy equipment experience. Big bolts/nuts.....multiple checks, when you stop getting movement, it's likely good. I realize that isn't precision....but when you are using a 2 1/2" socket and a 4 foot breaker bar........

[ACUDANUT]

Always and often recheck the lug nuts to make sure they have not become loose.  Mine came loose after a couple hundred miles. Damn near lost a wheel.

[rt green]

use anything on lug nuts?  the correct answer is no. maybe to get them off, but once they are tight you don't want them to come loose. NEVER use anything on lug nuts. put them on dry.

[MaximRecoil]

use anything on lug nuts?  the correct answer is no. maybe to get them off, but once they are tight you don't want them to come loose. NEVER use anything on lug nuts. put them on dry.

I know that intuition tends to support the idea that lubricated threads are more likely to come loose, but that's not actually how it works. First, spring tension from bolt and nut stretch is the primary force which keeps threaded fasteners tight after being torqued properly. If it were friction alone that kept them from loosening, you wouldn't have to tighten them beyond the point that there is no play in the wheel.

Second, when the nut is torqued properly, practically all of the lubricant on all of the thread-to-thread contact points is displaced, meaning there isn't much difference in the level of friction between threads compared to dry threads once the nut is tight. That extremely thin film of lubricant that is left behind after the rest has been displaced is not enough to largely reduce friction at the thread-to-thread contact points, but it is enough to prevent or reduce corrosion and other chemical reactions that can cause two pieces of metal to become somewhat bonded, and to prevent or reduce galling as you approach the desired torque.

This is why lubricated threads are inherently better than dry threads from a functional perspective, i.e., all advantages and no disadvantages. The only thing you have to consider is that torque specifications are different for lubricated threads than they are for dry threads (lubricated thread torque specifications are generally about 75% of the dry thread torque specification).

[ACUDANUT]

On my exposed lug nuts and studs (like my truck) I always keep grease on the threads, to keep them from rusting away.

[ws23rt]

What I have gathered from this thread is that those that have been working on older cars for a long time tend to want to preserve what they have. That is to keep it in working order for a long time.

The issue of lug thread life span is not what one generally thinks of when considering whether or not the wheel will fall off. And an experience with loose lug nuts could very well make one err on the side that tight dry threads are better for safety and long life. The idea that slick threads will allow the nuts to spin off is hard to dismiss from our mind even if it is not the case.

I have had dry stuck lug nuts that are at full recommended torque (for dry threads) and are not holding the wheel on as they should. In this case it has allowed the wheel to move around the studs making all the holes oversize and making the wheel toast. The wheel could also have fractured from the flexing and failed completely with all the nuts in place.

For the best piece of mind one needs to have good threads in the shape they are made and the proper torque.

Just a thought for those that fear lugs spinning off.  They do make nylock type nuts as well as interupted thread nuts for that purpose but Iv'e not seen them used for lug nuts

What we need is the wheel properly clamped on the axial or drum.  That can be done with new dry threads and the correct torque for that.  Or lubricated threads with the correct torque for that case.

The way metal moves around from stresses and heat cycles calls for periodic checking of the proper torque.  

IMO both dry and lubricated threads can get the job done but lubricated threads will last much longer.  

As some have said they have been using lube on the threads for many years as have I and the 40+ year old threads are holding up just fine.

[dual fours]

A little drop of oil on all my vehicle's clean studs keeps things working, contrary to what I had been told 39 years ago, "Do not oil the studs".
That coming from the folks that use impact wrenches to loosen / tighten the lugs. It's better to feel your nuts till they are tight. Did you ever feel that "chatter" in the wrench when you are tightening your nuts, it doesn't feel good, it can't be good, dry nut syndrome.  I have never had a issue of loose lugs in racing (hard surface) or 4x4 off road.  A good reason to not lube the studs / lugs would be if you get too much lube and it can migrates / centrifugal force to the brake surface.
If it needs to moves while against something, oil or grease it! Something's are to be excluded.

[Old Moparz]

Well....Seems that the consensus is to lube your nuts because dry humping causes chaffing. 

[Ghoste]

And we should have all learned that lesson as teens.

[PrisonHack]

 Ive always just sprayed a little WD-40 on the threads, but I have never actually checked the torque. I just hand tighten with a 4 way till it feels (bout right)

[John_Kunkel]

Not exactly the same issue but there's a consistent debate on the Forward Look forums about lubing the taper on the tapered axle shafts "to make the drums easier to remove" (tapers always go together dry) and invariably there are a bunch who state "I been lubing tapers for XX years and never had a problem".

Classic example of doing it wrong and getting away with it versus doing it right....ditto for the lug threads.

[Ghoste]

Not unlike the aeronautic engineers who can PROVE it is impossible for the bumblebee to fly?

[Indygenerallee]

Not unlike the aeronautic engineers who can PROVE it is impossible for the bumblebee to fly?

Exactly!! And your not supposed to use compression fittings on brake lines but its standard practice in every shop I have ever stepped foot in. I have used anti-seize on lug studs for over 17 years and never have had one come back because of a "wheel nut backing off" and I use torque sticks as well.

[ws23rt]

It's true that both dry and lubricated threads will get the job done. The debate comes from whether one is right or wrong.

Right and wrong are the terms that drive the debate. Even better and best will keep the discussion going.

When something is reccomended it is usually for a particular reason but that does not mean that an alternative cannot give as good results.

As for tapers and whether or not they should be lubricated.  They are rather different than threads. Threads require sliding movement to work and tapers are ment to grip from the friction surface. (Are not ment to be twisted but compressed). In this case friction is our friend.---Oh OH-- did I just help add the taper debate to this thread?  Sorry

[dual fours]

Not unlike the aeronautic engineers who can PROVE it is impossible for the bumblebee to fly?

Exactly!! And your not supposed to use compression fittings on brake lines but its standard practice in every shop I have ever stepped foot in. I have used anti-seize on lug studs for over 17 years and never have had one come back because of a "wheel nut backing off" and I use torque sticks as well.

What , compression fittings on brake lines, the ones with compression nuts and rings, and there not using double flared ends?
Oh, and I would never lube a tapered hub and axle, that would definitely be a no no and spin loose.
I understand those against lubing the lugs/studs main concern is with over stressing the studs/and attached components because of the lube.
I'll stick with lube and a four way lug wench.
There's more issues here then just the lugs/studs, as in material and construction of wheels, age of components, stress level being used at.
So your never get a 99% on one side or another. JMO

I see I was a little slow hitting the save button .

[John_Kunkel]

As for tapers and whether or not they should be lubricated.  They are rather different than threads.

I know, I merely added that to illustrate the value (or not) of "I been doin' it that way for XX years and never had a problem". (Anecdotal experience versus empirical evidence)

[Ghoste]

In this instance, how is anecdotal evidence different from empirical?

[Old Moparz]

This thread is still thriving?  

Wow.....I didn't realize there were Democratic & Republican nuts.  

[ws23rt]

This thread is still thriving?  

Wow.....I didn't realize there were Democratic & Republican nuts.  

This thread is sure to thrive with the introduction of politics (until it is closed because of it).

A liberal would tend to go all natural---dry threads--  If they were to use lube it would be a plant based organic type.

A conservative that chose to use dry threads would be fine with replacing the lugs as needed.  (it would create more jobs)  If they were to use lube it would be the good stuff where ever it came from. 

We are all a bit nuts

[XS29L]

I've been wrenching for over 35 years and ALWAYS use anti-seize on lug nuts. Being in Vermont with all the salt used on the roads every winter anti-seize on fasteners is a way of life.

[John_Kunkel]

In the links below notice how many times the term "torque values are based on clean dry threads" appears.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair/torque-wrench-101-how-to-get-the-right-amount-of-force-2

http://www.aa1car.com/library/torque_wrench.htm

http://www.diyspaceexploration.com/use-torque-wrench/

http://electronicfilters.tpub.com/TM-10-4330-237-13P/css/TM-10-4330-237-13P_105.htm

[MaximRecoil]

In the links below notice how many times the term "torque values are based on clean dry threads" appears.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair/torque-wrench-101-how-to-get-the-right-amount-of-force-2

http://www.aa1car.com/library/torque_wrench.htm

http://www.diyspaceexploration.com/use-torque-wrench/

http://electronicfilters.tpub.com/TM-10-4330-237-13P/css/TM-10-4330-237-13P_105.htm

From your first link:

If you're installing a fastener that has a dry torque spec, and the threads and bolt face are oiled, you'll need to reduce the torque by 15 to 25 percent, because the slipperier surfaces will decrease friction. Teflon-bearing lubes or moly-sulfide engine assembly lubes can reduce friction enough to require a 50 percent reduction in tightening torque. Even casually substituting a zinc- or cad-plated bolt or washer for an unplated one calls for, respectively, a 15 or 25 percent reduction in applied torque, because the plating acts as a lubricant.

Which has already been pointed out in this thread.

[six-tee-nine]

I always use some copper grease or anti seize on lug nuts or wheel bolts. Never lost a nut or bolt and next time you take them off they loosen well.
Never tighten with a impact wrench (loosening is ok) you will always overtighten and then the studs break.

I also put a light film on the hub where the rim sits. Ever had a rim rusted or caked to the hub? Not a safe feeling having to whack on the inside of a rim with a slegde hammer to get it of the hub while the car sits on a jack. Not to mention the fact that hammering on a rim is'nt the best thing to do....

[dyslexic teddybear]

I always use some copper grease or anti seize on lug nuts or wheel bolts. Never lost a nut or bolt and next time you take them off they loosen well.
Never tighten with a impact wrench (loosening is ok) you will always overtighten and then the studs break.

I also put a light film on the hub where the rim sits. Ever had a rim rusted or caked to the hub? Not a safe feeling having to whack on the inside of a rim with a slegde hammer to get it of the hub while the car sits on a jack. Not to mention the fact that hammering on a rim is'nt the best thing to do....

Agree, never tighten with an impact.

I do use my air wrench on the lowest setting. Maybe 20lbs torque? Just to spin them on.....if it goes into impact mode, it's a warning to check......something's not right. Use my cordless drill/impact too. Both work well.

Tighten by hand, and pay attention. Better to find anything wrong before you have a flat.

I have Cummins[personal+ 2 work]. I'm not lazy, but 8 and 10 lugs per wheel.....I want power tools.

[John_Kunkel]

Which has already been pointed out in this thread.

Yeah, but how many of the respondents in 3 pages of replies reduce the torque for lube?

[Ghoste]

Not me.

[ws23rt]

I just had another thought about the question---to lube or not to lube lug nuts---

Some FSMs recommend dry threads and my take is it must be for a reason.  I think it's a kind of CYA deal or liability.

Mopar had left hand thread lugs for a while.  Why was that?  To perhaps help keep the nuts from coming off the left side?

They no longer use left hand threads.  Is this because the nuts no longer spin off?

[Ghoste]

And I think that's certainly the point John is making is that the fsm states it for a reason.

[ws23rt]

And I think that's certainly the point John is making is that the fsm states it for a reason.

I agree with John. What the FSM recommends is a good reference. And dry threads do work fine. I would also like to have been at the table where decisions were made. Sometimes practical physics is not enough when all at the table have an input.
When lawyers get a chance to speak they have a power that overrides. Not to mention that engineers once knew nothing and learned by making mistakes and assumptions  like all the rest of us.

[six-tee-nine]

I always use some copper grease or anti seize on lug nuts or wheel bolts. Never lost a nut or bolt and next time you take them off they loosen well.
Never tighten with a impact wrench (loosening is ok) you will always overtighten and then the studs break.

I also put a light film on the hub where the rim sits. Ever had a rim rusted or caked to the hub? Not a safe feeling having to whack on the inside of a rim with a slegde hammer to get it of the hub while the car sits on a jack. Not to mention the fact that hammering on a rim is'nt the best thing to do....

Agree, never tighten with an impact.

I do use my air wrench on the lowest setting. Maybe 20lbs torque? Just to spin them on.....if it goes into impact mode, it's a warning to check......something's not right. Use my cordless drill/impact too. Both work well.

Tighten by hand, and pay attention. Better to find anything wrong before you have a flat.

I have Cummins[personal+ 2 work]. I'm not lazy, but 8 and 10 lugs per wheel.....I want power tools.

I hear ya, I do the same thing.
I put the nuts on by hand because only then you can FEEL if the nut is correct on the thread of the stud. Then I use the wrench on low torque mode, then tighten by hand

[John_Kunkel]

"Feel" can be deceptive, ask my friend who put 1/2"-20 lug nuts on 12MM x 1.25 lug studs and torqued them properly...lost a wheel and totaled the car.