Cam is wiped out. Now what? How far do I go?

[71 SE3834V]

Well I finally found out what is wrong with the engine. The #2 exhaust lobe is wiped out on the cam. Now where do I go from here???
Just replace cam and lifters?
Pull the heads also for a valve job? (I know at least the seals need to be replaced)
Put it back into storage and on the back burner?

I'm thinking it might be easier on my back to pull the engine if I'm gonna pull the heads so I'm not leaning over the fender for hours but then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. If the engine is out do I paint the dr side inner fender which is black back to body color?
Do I pull the steering gearbox to replace the leaking seals?
Do I pull the trans to reseal it's leaks?
Geez the list goes on & on and it's starting to look expensive.

I never really wanted this much of a project. I just wanted to have a little fun with it. I have another car that is pretty much turn key that I will get out of storage next weekend to prepare for the local cruise.

So can anyone tell me what it cost anymore to have a pair of 383ci 346 heads done stock specs, nothing fancy? Last time I had some done was 30 yrs ago!

What is recommended as far as brands of cams & specs for a stock '71 383HP?
So many question and home work to do...

[Cooter]

Unfortunately, that lobe went through the engine. Oil filters are good, but not designed to clean oil that looks like metallic spray paint. Gonna have to come apart for checking and cleaning.
you COULD try just cam/lifters, but not recommended.

[ws23rt]

All those things you point out that should be addressed while the engine is out are opportunities. Take any one of them and you would most likely pass on addressing them because of the hassle.

This is part of what it's like to own and work on these old cars. If this is not fun than pay someone to do it for you.

Many folks in the hobby find that they just want the car and not enjoy making the car what it  was.

OOps was that a rant---

[71 SE3834V]

Unfortunately, that lobe went through the engine. Oil filters are good, but not designed to clean oil that looks like metallic spray paint. Gonna have to come apart for checking and cleaning.
you COULD try just cam/lifters, but not recommended.

Yeah I figured that when I pulled the rocker shaft and saw the grey on the bolt. Figured if I'm gonna do it I'd be doing the valve job. Was figuring the oil pan needed to be resealed anyway. Do you think I could drop the pan and clean the insides or are you talking pulling the rod and main caps to check the bearings?
Back in the late 80's I bought '77 chevy 305 with a wiped out cam. Replaced cam, lifters & water pump and sent the heads out to be redone. Put it back together, probably changed to oil (I don't remember) and drove it another 40,000 mi. Did I get lucky on that one?

All those things you point out that should be addressed while the engine is out are opportunities. Take any one of them and you would most likely pass on addressing them because of the hassle.

This is part of what it's like to own and work on these old cars. If this is not fun than pay someone to do it for you.

Many folks in the hobby find that they just want the car and not enjoy making the car what it  was.

OOps was that a rant---

Were you ranting at me or just in general. Just asking cause if you knew me and knew what I've already done to this car then you'd know I'm not in it for just the ride. I've been wrenching my whole life. Had my own fleet of plow trucks in the 90's where I did everything from oil changes to pulling engines for major repairs. The biggest hurdle is I'm now disabled. Money is tighter and my condition is making it real tough to continue enjoying my hobbies. That's plural which is another problem. I got too many hobbies and need to narrow them down so it's easier on me physically.
I'd like nothing more than to tear into this for a long term project but if it doesn't get done before winter then it would be taking up the only space I have to do repairs to my other vehicles. I just gotta think about how far I can go with the time I have. No offense.  

[rt green]

be safe not sorry. better to do it right than to end up with a broken pile of iron.    just sayin

[don duick]

 I had a wiped lobe on my 440. Just replaced the cam and lifters, cleaned the valley and sump, it was full of metal shavings, changed the oil done about 2000 miles since, so far OK. But then then again its just a tired old stocker I don't really care about will be  getting a full rebuild soon.

[firefighter3931]

Sorry to hear about the wiped lobe. What oil were you using ?

I would at least drop the pan and pull a few main/rod caps for inspection 

There will be some metal in there but often the oilpump will take the brunt of the damage. Plan on installing a new oil pump because the rotors will be scored up for sure. You should pull it apart anyway just to survey the level of damage. 

Assuming everything looks reasonably good with the bearings you can install a fresh oil pump, clean out the pan and have a valvejob done on the heads with fresh valveseals installed. Now might be the time to have a fresh set of valvesprings installed because a new cam will be installed. Plan on a new timing chain as well 

Lots of good cam options these days. The right cam choice is dependant on the rest of the combination so we would need more specifics 

Quality oil is essential. Brad Penn has all the extreme pressure additives needed for protection and the Napa Gold filters are fantastic. 



Ron

[71 SE3834V]

Ron, I can't answer the oil question w/o giving a little back history because it wouldn't be fair to the Vavoline VR1 I have in it now.
A friend had the car for sale in 2011. Went to look it over and found it had fuel in the oil. Owner said it had been stored for 15 years and he had been starting it once in a while. Damage likely had started before I bought it.
Dumped some fuel down the carb and it fired up. Listened to it idle, gave it a few rpm's, it did not tick or knock so I bought it for $3250. Pretty good deal considering how solid the body and rails are. Drove it up on a trailer (didn't have a winch), towed it home, drove it off trailer and changed the oil. Just put in some Peak 10w30 as I was intending to flush that through and change it out.
The rest of 2011 I went over the car fixing what needed to be done to make it road worthy. It was severely neglected as the air filter was black, the plugs full of carbon and the #8 plug wire was disconnected. Between that and the engine not getting enough air was probably the reason for the fuel in the oil.

In 2012 I licensed the car. Worked on the car all summer and ended up driving it 240 miles. Forgot about the oil. It ran pretty good but I knew it wasn't quite right. It sounded a little "ratty" at the top end like it had a rev limiter on it but it would still push you back in the seat when the secondaries kicked in. Changed the oil to Pennzoil High Mileage 10w30 before storing it in the fall of 2012.

Joined this site over the winter where I learned about the zinc issue.
As soon as it came out of storage in the spring of 2013 I changed the oil out to the Valvoline VR1 20w50. That rating was all I could find locally and since the pressure was dropping down to 13psi at idle when warm I figured it could use some thicker oil.
Took it for a drive and something wasn't right. Long story short I spent weeks eliminated other possible causes. Compression check was down but ok, all within 10%. Kept getting curve balls thrown at me like the fuel pump started leaking, stupid rebuilt dist. I put in went bad, etc. I knew the timing chain was pretty bad so I replaced the set. Yeah, I'm kicking myself pretty hard for not pulling the valve covers then but the dang compression test and vac reading just didn't give me any reason to think there was something majorly wrong internally. Vac was pretty steady at 15.25 and occasionally go to 16 and back down. Nothing wild and real steady at higher rpm's.
Pulled the dr. side cover in the fall and rocker movement looked good. Had a brain fart and didn't pull the other side. Got burned out on it and put it away. Was thinking over the winter that maybe I had some stuck lifters (there was a light layer of sludge seen) and maybe they were keeping the valves cracked. I had some experience with a Kohler V-twin w/hyd lifters that did this because the owner wouldn't change his oil like he should. Lifters would stick keeping the valves open resulting in no compression. It was a theory anyway.
Pull the pass side cover a few days ago and there it was. #2 ex rocker not moving. Pull the 2 lifters. Intake came apart easily but the plunger cap in the exhaust lifter was hard to come out. Cap had a ring of varnish on it. Once cleaned it move freely in the lifter but the damage was done.

So that brings it to where I'm at right now. Sorry that was so long.
Engine is bone stock '71 383HP as far as I know. 727 trans, 3.23 open diff.
I haven't found anything on the car so far that isn't stock other then the stereo in place of the cass. player and the extended shackles on the rear leaf spring. Heck, it still had Mopar belts on it.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the excellent writeup 

How bad is the #2 exhaust lifter ? You might have caught it early enough but only a bearing inspection will tell or sure.  As mentioned in my previous post the oil pump should be pulled down and inspected as well. I'm sure you will find some scoring on the rotors. 


Ron

[BSB67]

So here are some observations as I have never wiped a lobe, but been around a few that have.

You can get lucky and the there is something between little to no damage.
You could have some damage, but it might not ever present itself as a real problem
You could have metal everywhere.

The question as I see it, how lucky do you feel?

Checking bearings does not tell the whole store either as splash will cause metal to get on and ultimately embedded into the piston skirts and scuff cylinder walls.

[71 SE3834V]

Thanks for the excellent writeup 

How bad is the #2 exhaust lifter ? You might have caught it early enough but only a bearing inspection will tell or sure.  As mentioned in my previous post the oil pump should be pulled down and inspected as well. I'm sure you will find some scoring on the rotors. 

Ron

Lifter is wasted. Didn't take a pic but it is quite concave on the bottom. And I have some questions on the rockers as far as wear. Will post pics later.

I've decided that if I do this I will pull the engine and open it up. Not gonna take a chance on a #'s matching engine.
My next hurdle is to figure out how/where to store the car if this goes into winter. It is usually driven 1/4 mi to another garage. If I can't get it there then it might have to sit outside! 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Ive been around alot of peoples wiped cams with different severities and taken different approaches. In your case, large chu ks of metal have gone throughout the engine. It would not be wise to try and do a simple cam/lifter swap with the amount of damage already sustained.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the excellent writeup 

How bad is the #2 exhaust lifter ? You might have caught it early enough but only a bearing inspection will tell or sure.  As mentioned in my previous post the oil pump should be pulled down and inspected as well. I'm sure you will find some scoring on the rotors. 

Ron

Lifter is wasted. Didn't take a pic but it is quite concave on the bottom. And I have some questions on the rockers as far as wear. Will post pics later.

I've decided that if I do this I will pull the engine and open it up. Not gonna take a chance on a #'s matching engine.
My next hurdle is to figure out how/where to store the car if this goes into winter. It is usually driven 1/4 mi to another garage. If I can't get it there then it might have to sit outside! 

If this is a numbers matching engine you definately want to pull it and repair properly. In the end you'll have piece of mind and won't be wondering "what if" 

Hopefully the damage is minimal and you can get by with a crank polish, good flush of the oil passages, new bearings/rings and a quick hone on the cylinders. Based on the milage/age it's almost due anyway 


Ron

[71 SE3834V]

The car has 72,000 on it.

I stopped at a local engine shop that has been around for decades to get a price on head work. They specialize in performance and marine engines. Told him of my plan to open the engine to inspect bearings, etc. He asked me why I wanted to do that as most people will do more harm than good. I assured him I was quite capable having held an engine repair license in the mid 80's before going into my own groundskeeping business and have been repairing my own fleet of plow trucks since. His response was "in that case, open it up, clean out the pan, have the heads reground, replace the pump and you should be good."
He also claimed I should get 40,000 mi out of his valve grind with a stock engine. I told him I'd be lucky to put a few hundred miles on the car p/year to which he claimed I wouldn't need new seats as I wouldn't put enough wear on them and in 20 yrs if I burnt a valve to fix it then (I probably won't have the car beyond 10-15 yrs).
He stated that the cams the local chain stores sell (Melling, Sealed Power) will work well in a stock engine. He deals in mainly Comp cams and Lunati for his performance applications.

Your opinions on this opinion please. And what brands of cam/lifters should I be looking at.

I've had 2 shops offer to rebuild the engine for $4,000. I don't have that to put into this car. I can do maybe $1,000 + my time as I need to send the trans out to be resealed and as soon as the engine would be done the radiator will need to be replaced.

[71 SE3834V]

Well I'm diving into this. Well...more of a belly flop. Got the top end disconnected Saturday and half of the bottom end unbolted. Geez, I can remember back when I could get an engine yanked in a few hours. Sucks getting old!
Should have the engine out sometime mid week if I can find someone to help me get the hood off.

[firefighter3931]

Your opinions on this opinion please. And what brands of cam/lifters should I be looking at.

The Johnson lifters would be my first choice along with a Crower HDP271 cam 

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cro-32242/overview/

Use a set of Comp #911 valvesprings as well while you are freshening up the heads 

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-911-16



Ron

[71 SE3834V]

Your opinions on this opinion please. And what brands of cam/lifters should I be looking at.

The Johnson lifters would be my first choice along with a Crower HDP271 cam  

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cro-32242/overview/

Use a set of Comp #911 valvesprings as well while you are freshening up the heads  

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-911-16

Ron

I plan on going w/the Johnson's just a little bummed I live 2 miles from where they're made but can't get them there. Have to drive farther and purchase them from another source.

I noted that the specs on that cam are a little higher than the stock one and they list it for "hot strip applications" from 1800-4500 rpm's. Not sure if that'll be good for me just cruising around. What I don't want to do is to have to spend more money to get the hp left on the table by not putting an intake, carb & headers on it. I'd rather spend the money making sure the thing is cleaned out, checked and not going to give me any problems in the future along w/taking care of the trans & steering gear leaks & recore the radiator. I won't be putting but a few hundred miles on it p/year if I'm lucky. I got a real tight budget and stock is fine for me.
Appreciate your help.

[71 SE3834V]

Update if anyone is interested:
Pulled the engine.
Tore the top end down. Found pretty much all valve seals cracked/gone.
Measured ridge at top of cylinder at about .005. Could see a huge gap in the top ring and could fit a .010 feeler gauge between piston and wall. 
Stripped the block down. Opened up the oil pump. Measured .005 between the rotors but they were scored up pretty bad.  Spoke with a local engine builder.
Pulled the oil pan & windage tray. Found most of the missing valve seal pieces in the pick up screen. Didn't see any major damage and after speaking w/the builder and getting some prices decided to truck it over to his place.
Got the call today. After pulling the 3 inside mains and 1 piston/rod the report is the crank is good and will polish up like new. Bearings didn't have much metal embedded in them. Piston has wear on it and the rings were so worn the piston almost slid out on it own. Most of this wear probably happened before I owned it as it wasn't maintained well.
Bottom line: It needs to be bored, honed and fitted w/new pistons.
The price I was given to rebuild the short block (lower end) would be about the same as if I had all the machine work done and did all the dis/reassembly myself. It would be stupid to spend days on this so I'm gonna bite the bullet, have the short block and heads done and finish putting the top end back together myself.
Trans will come out to be sealed at my favorite trans shop for a real nice price and I'll clean up some more in the engine bay and swap out the steering gearbox after the holiday.   

[fy469rtse]

good to hear it wasnt too bad , good job , it will be back on the road before you know it 

[firefighter3931]

It sounds like you have a good plan and the damage was not significant 

You might want to consider reworking the rods and installing a set of ARP rod bolts. Depending on the piston choice a rebalance might be in order. I allways have the rotating assembly balanced ; smoother idle and acceleration 


The Crower cam I linked above is not very radical at all and produces lots of manifold vacuum and excellent power at the same time. The wide 112* LSA is manifold friendly with reduced overlap. Curtis (Bull) has that same grind in his 383.....maybe ask him how he likes it. 


Ron

[Dino]

Update if anyone is interested:
Pulled the engine.
Tore the top end down. Found pretty much all valve seals cracked/gone.
Measured ridge at top of cylinder at about .005. Could see a huge gap in the top ring and could fit a .010 feeler gauge between piston and wall. 
Stripped the block down. Opened up the oil pump. Measured .005 between the rotors but they were scored up pretty bad.  Spoke with a local engine builder.
Pulled the oil pan & windage tray. Found most of the missing valve seal pieces in the pick up screen. Didn't see any major damage and after speaking w/the builder and getting some prices decided to truck it over to his place.
Got the call today. After pulling the 3 inside mains and 1 piston/rod the report is the crank is good and will polish up like new. Bearings didn't have much metal embedded in them. Piston has wear on it and the rings were so worn the piston almost slid out on it own. Most of this wear probably happened before I owned it as it wasn't maintained well.
Bottom line: It needs to be bored, honed and fitted w/new pistons.
The price I was given to rebuild the short block (lower end) would be about the same as if I had all the machine work done and did all the dis/reassembly myself. It would be stupid to spend days on this so I'm gonna bite the bullet, have the short block and heads done and finish putting the top end back together myself.
Trans will come out to be sealed at my favorite trans shop for a real nice price and I'll clean up some more in the engine bay and swap out the steering gearbox after the holiday.   

Let me know if you need a hand.   

[71 SE3834V]

Stopped by the shop to drop off the new oil pump I had purchased. Engine is torn down, heads disassembled, everything is looking good with no further surprises. Parts ordered. Block was being hot tanked for the 2nd time to try to get the years of baked on grime off.

Dino, I will be out of town next week on vacation. I will be pulling the trans shortly after I get back if you're up for something like that. Local shop will reseal it for $95. I know that's a bit more work then I did for you. I need to send you a PM with a body work question.

[Dino]

I'm up for that!   

You helped me more than you may think by the way.      

The car is running again since this evening, I'll be doing a longer test run tomorrow but it looks promising.  I need the timing set but it runs real nice already.   

[71 SE3834V]

Well I haven't exactly kept the updates going on this but I'll try to give a Readers Digest version.

With Dino's help we pulled the trans.
Decided to strip the engine bay, take care of some surface rust and with Dino's help it was painted.

[71 SE3834V]

Cleaned and detailed just about everything in the engine bay. I chose not to patch the drivers inner fender at this time due to a time crunch. It will have to be done later.