Modern Muscle cars in 30-40 years?

[PrisonHack]

  Do you think people will be restoring and discussing 2014 Coyote Mustangs and R/T Challengers ect. 30-40 years from now or will the complexity of their electronic and saftey features make them disposable?

[Daytona R/T SE]

  Do you think people will be restoring and discussing 2014 Coyote Mustangs and R/T Challengers ect. 30-40 years from now or will the complexity of their electronic and saftey features make them disposable?

I don't think all the plastic and electronics will stand the test of time. 

[Mike DC]

 
Newer cars will be restored but probably not to the extreme lengths that we are doing now. 

The newer pieces will be harder to repair and easier to re-create with cheaper tooling & printing.

 

[JB400]

I doubt that they'll be restored to how they are brand new.  I can see them easily running on alternative fuels and maybe even hybrid conversions.  However, with self driving cars being introduced here in a couple years, could 30-40 years be enough time to make sdc's efficient enough that human controlled cars could be outlawed by then?

[polywideblock]

my guess is the electronics etc. won't stand the test of time   

       now as to the ones that are now being purchased  and stored away in climate controlled garages etc     

[myk]

Take a look at "modern" muscle cars that are already 20 years old, like a friend's '93 Camaro Z28 for example.  The car has led a garaged and privelaged lifestyle, and with only 133,000 miles on the 'odo you'd think that the car would be in perfect health, but nothing would be more innacurate.  In addition to the regular maintenance and wear items, the Camaro has gone through two 6 speeds and one rear end, and like others have mentioned, the electronics have been nothing but a nightmare to maintain in operable condition.  As for value?  I don't know about current market values but I'm sure '93 Camaro's won't be rolling onto the Barrett Jackson auction grounds any time soon.  Maybe in another 20 years?  Maybe, but I shudder to think about 20 more years of maintenance nightmares...

[1974dodgecharger]

NO, unless someone comes up with in a market with ECU and what not.  With old muscle cars it was simple stuff battery, fuel, air, combustions etc...add in modern stuff such as ECU that needs to control your diff locks, door locks, tranny etc..

[Cooter]

Sure they will. Just like the few that bought Hemi Cudas thinking one day they will be worth something.
as for the newer electronics? Well, let's see. How many cars do yo uhh see today with 100-400k on the clock, when these cars got about 100k and needed complete rebuilds ? How many times have ECMs been the culprit of problems?
As for plastics, there are 68-70 Charger grilles that are 50 y/o....
I see 25 y/o 'plastic' cars still being driven. There will always be collectable cars.

[Ghoste]

Not to the degree the 60's muscle was restored.  Electronics will be a huge factor as will modular components.  Look at the Ferrari crowd where preservation has always been a thing.  That is to say, they don't send them off to a scrapyard to be discovered decades later, which means the ones that are 15 and 20 years old, guys are already looking to keep them fresh.  The biggest problem?  Electronics and modular assembly.  They are having an extremely tough time keeping those cars on the road.

[SRT-440]

my GN is almost 30 yrs old...electronics are just fine...ppl think just cuz cars are modern means they aren't worthy or long lasting...SRT Challengers, Chargers, GT's will prolly hold up just fine if not better than the old cars. I think rust won't be as big an issue as it was (it will still happen) just not as bad...and all the panels are plastic so they are easily replaced and no metal work required.
As far as the motors...they are WORLDS better than the old school stuff...I have 2004 Hemi Ram with 200K on it and all it needs is new brakes. 

[Ghoste]

Not to demean the GN because I love them but they aren't anywhere near the computerized marvel the cars being built now are.  I'm hopeful that collector cars will continue because its a great hobby but I truly believe in the future they'll need to be a lot more dedicated to the cause.

[6spd68]

Give it time, they'll become collectable to the younger generations that grew up around them.  Look at the popularity of Fox bodies or the gen-3 Camaros.  Just give it time for that particular age group to have some disposable income, and you'll have your collectors.

[Chad L. Magee]

What is funny is that a couple of years ago, I kept finding running, fairly strait third gen camaros/firebirds and fox bodied mustangs for sale cheap (ie. below $1000).  I even turned down a nice running 1988 v6 camaro with t-tops for $200 in 2007, as I had no space for it.  Today, it is rather rare to find one like that without needing a lot of work or a much higher price tag.  I am not saying that they will become the next "big thing", but they are tending to go up in price after bottoming out.  This trend tends to follow the flow and ebb of time past, so it may continue to do so in the future (unless something prevents it like legislation banning internal combustion engines).  That said, modern muscle may well become collectible cars of the future, but not quite like the 1960s-70s ones we know and love.  Remember back then, there was a whole culture that revolved around them.  I just do not see that nowdays and that will influence how they are remembered later on.  Kids are less likely to get into cars at the present time and tend to use them sparingly because of gas prices, which cuts down on their "fun" with cars.   People are also more aware that a "mint, low-mileage original creampuff" is worth more than a restored version.  B-J hype just stirs the pot on this situation more.  So now, people are speculating on them, setting them aside for just that purpose: to make money later on.  It was attempted in 1978 with the 25th anniversary corvettes and now the market has quite a few examples with less than 100 miles on them, which does bring the prices down a bit from where they could have been without all of that.  If you have a very rare specialty high performance version, it will likely keep its value over time, but is it worth it to have it just collecting dust all that time?  Or is it better to go out and drive it for what it was built for, risking a potential loss later on?...

On a side note, a fellow camaro owner dropped by yesterday to ask about my third gen camaros.  He was driving his modified 1994 Z28 around town and it stopped (electrical issues) one block from my house.  He had just spent $$$ fixing electrical issues and will likely be doing the same this week on it.  So, even newer cars can be $$$ pits.... 

[wingcar]

There will always those that will want to buy back a piece of their youth.  Look at all the baby boomers that buy 60 and 70 musclecar either because they had one, or wanted one back then and couldn't afford them.   So yes, today's musclecars will have value to some group of individuals, just how big that group will be is another question.  I purchased my black Challenger SRT because I had a black RT/SE Challenger in High School.  However, I grew up seeing musclecars everyday and using one as a daily driver since they were just "used cars" back then.  Today's youth is not so much into cars as we were back then...so many of them will see today's musclecars simply as gas guzzler environmentally unfriendly cars since they will have no emotional ties to them as we did.  Wait, that's how many young people feel about them today!

*Who knows what the future holds....so why park a car in the garage collecting dust, hoping it's value will increase with time when you can enjoy the car today....drive it and don't worry about its value 20 years down the road...you may not even be here!

[polywideblock]

I can see an electrical degree in "future " restorers CV   

[Ponch ®]

I don't think it will be so much the cars "holding up" mechanically/electronically, as much as the fact that there are soo many of them. Also, the modding/customizing scene is much more pervasive now - the odds of finding an unmolested example of say, a 2010 Challenger 30 years from now are not all that great.

I've said this before: the thing is that there are guys who are buying the "limited edition" cars (like the numbered first run Challengers) thinking that itll be their retirement fund. Don't think the car will be worthless, but it certainly won't be a windfall.

[Ghoste]

You are dead on there Ponch, just ask all the last Cadillac convertible and 25th Anniversary Corvette buyers.

[Mike DC]

I swear to God, the special/anniversary editions outnumbered the regular GM stuff in the 1980s-90s. 

[RallyeMike]

my GN is almost 30 yrs old...electronics are just fine...ppl think just cuz cars are modern means they aren't worthy or long lasting...SRT Challengers, Chargers, GT's will prolly hold up just fine if not better than the old cars. I think rust won't be as big an issue as it was (it will still happen) just not as bad...

The actual question here is about new cars, not 30 year old cars. Comparing the electronics in a GN to a new car is like comparing the technology of a donkey cart to a space ship.

The reality is that when a 2014 car is 45 years old, the manf are not going to be supporting them with new components. Why? Because while any shade tree mechanic can put together a carb'd, car with a throttle cable, or even a 30-year old GN, very few people 45 years from now are going to have the technological knowledge and willpower to bring a car back from the dead where everything is controlled by umpteen sensors and computers.

Modern cars are great. They outperform the old ones hands down and last way longer, but when their time comes due, they will be hitting the recycle bin, not the restoration bay of a garage.

[Aero426]

my GN is almost 30 yrs old...electronics are just fine...ppl think just cuz cars are modern means they aren't worthy or long lasting...SRT Challengers, Chargers, GT's will prolly hold up just fine if not better than the old cars. I think rust won't be as big an issue as it was (it will still happen) just not as bad...and all the panels are plastic so they are easily replaced and no metal work required.
As far as the motors...they are WORLDS better than the old school stuff...I have 2004 Hemi Ram with 200K on it and all it needs is new brakes. 

You can't compare an 80's car like a Buick GN to the complexities of a new car.      A GN is still pretty much an analog car except for the engine management.   The real problem comes on these new cars with EVERYTHING being computer controlled.   The climate control systems,  dashboard electronics, and all the touch screen crap is a potential nightmare.   Don't expect the factory to come to the rescue.   

Rust not being an issue on modern cars?    Are you kidding me?     

[MaximRecoil]

You can't compare an 80's car like a Buick GN to the complexities of a new car.      A GN is still pretty much an analog car except for the engine management.   The real problem comes on these new cars with EVERYTHING being computer controlled.   The climate control systems,  dashboard electronics, and all the touch screen crap is a potential nightmare.   Don't expect the factory to come to the rescue.   

Rust not being an issue on modern cars?    Are you kidding me?     

A qualified person with an oscilloscope and schematics can fix most any computer problem, as long as the fix doesn't require an impossible-to-get custom IC. The main difference is who people will have to go to for a fix; it won't be typical mechanics, it will be electrical engineers or talented electronics hobbyists. Someone like Mark Spaeth (Ph.D. from MIT in electrical engineering) or Jrok could fix most any computer, even if they weren't specifically familiar with it; and if something prevented them from fixing it, such as it being sealed in epoxy or needing custom ICs, they could design and manufacture a replacement from scratch, as long as they knew what functions it needed to perform. I doubt many people would go to such lengths though, especially for today's soulless cars.

[myk]

I don't know about you guys, but I don't see a lot of the 1st generation of new muscle cars lurking the streets anymore (80's/90's).  The electronics and the many support systems just weren't built to last and quite frankly there isn't much aftermarket support to maintain them; nor does there seem to be a desire for it.  Will they finally have their day?  Will there ever be support for them?  At one time there wasn't any for Mopar folks. Who knows?  We'll have to wait and see..

[Baldwinvette77]

I personally just think people wont need to, Newer cars dont rust like the older oncs did, plus, people i see with modern muscles take rather good care with them, How many late model musclecars do you see with even a dent on them? personally i cant count any, They may simply last 30-40 years or so, if their owners love them enough 

[Ghoste]

I guess we'll know in 30 or 40 years.  I truly hope the hobby continues but I think anyone who believes these cars won't rust out or that anyone with a scope and schematic can fix it will be proven wrong.  (this is the part where Maxim smugly dismisses me for daring to disagree with him but since neither of us can prove out position for a few decades I choose to just say whatever will be will be)

[Ponch ®]

 The real problem comes on these new cars with EVERYTHING being computer controlled.   The climate control systems,  dashboard electronics, and all the touch screen crap is a potential nightmare.   Don't expect the factory to come to the rescue.    

tell me about it...the TIPM (the totally integrated something something that controls the keyfobs, windows, etc ) on the '10 Challenger took a dump a couple of weeks ago. Basically bricked the car, and it wasn't even the main computer (the PCM). Had to get it towed to the dealer and it even took them a day or two to figure it out.

Here's the beauty of it (and its the little things like this that make new cars a PITA): the current Challengers have this neat feature that automatically rolls down the windows about 1/4" when the door opens, then rolls them back up when it shuts so that the glass seals up nicely into the weatherstripping. Well, since the TIPM controls the windows, this was not working, and the windows were stuck in the fully up position...which means I couldn't shut my doors completely because the top of the window couldn't clear the weatherstripping. It wasn't a big deal because it happened at my work in a secured parking structure and I was able to get a tow truck right away, but if it had happened somewhere else less accessible (I was planning on driving the car to Vegas the next day!) where I may have had to leave the car for some time, it could have been a safety/security issue.

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

[6spd68]

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

Esta chinga loco 

[Aero426]

A qualified person with an oscilloscope and schematics can fix most any computer problem, as long as the fix doesn't require an impossible-to-get custom IC. The main difference is who people will have to go to for a fix; it won't be typical mechanics, it will be electrical engineers or talented electronics hobbyists. Someone like Mark Spaeth (Ph.D. from MIT in electrical engineering) or Jrok could fix most any computer, even if they weren't specifically familiar with it; and if something prevented them from fixing it, such as it being sealed in epoxy or needing custom ICs, they could design and manufacture a replacement from scratch, as long as they knew what functions it needed to perform. I doubt many people would go to such lengths though, especially for today's soulless cars.

That is what is happening now in the late model Ferrari world when the factory gives up support.   We are talking 1990's models where components and whatever is in the black box has to be reverse engineered  by the aftermarket.     Certainly there will be a market for some of this if the car is worth it.     

[myk]

Yeah well that's fine for people who have the money to have someone "reverse engineer"  or custom build a piece of electronics for their car.  The rest of us are in the junkyards getting pieces no better than what we already have or paying scalper prices for pieces that are no better than what we already have...

[Aero426]

I personally just think people wont need to, Newer cars dont rust like the older oncs did, plus, people i see with modern muscles take rather good care with them, How many late model musclecars do you see with even a dent on them? personally i cant count any, They may simply last 30-40 years or so, if their owners love them enough 

Newer cars will rust through.    You just haven't given them enough time yet.    The stuff they put on the roads here is so corrosive.  

I do agree that a lot of modern muscle is being pampered.   I don't think the moderns cars are good "investment" for the point you make that enough will still be around.    They won't be particularly rare (example, the first 2008 Challengers with the automatics).   But there will be some exceptions.    

[Cooter]

 The real problem comes on these new cars with EVERYTHING being computer controlled.   The climate control systems,  dashboard electronics, and all the touch screen crap is a potential nightmare.   Don't expect the factory to come to the rescue.    

tell me about it...the TIPM (the totally integrated something something that controls the keyfobs, windows, etc ) on the '10 Challenger took a dump a couple of weeks ago. Basically bricked the car, and it wasn't even the main computer (the PCM). Had to get it towed to the dealer and it even took them a day or two to figure it out.

Here's the beauty of it (and its the little things like this that make new cars a PITA): the current Challengers have this neat feature that automatically rolls down the windows about 1/4" when the door opens, then rolls them back up when it shuts so that the glass seals up nicely into the weatherstripping. Well, since the TIPM controls the windows, this was not working, and the windows were stuck in the fully up position...which means I couldn't shut my doors completely because the top of the window couldn't clear the weatherstripping. It wasn't a big deal because it happened at my work in a secured parking structure and I was able to get a tow truck right away, but if it had happened somewhere else less accessible (I was planning on driving the car to Vegas the next day!) where I may have had to leave the car for some time, it could have been a safety/security issue.

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

But....but....you still bought it. Possibly for big bucks (over $35k)
until the BUYING public stops buying all the latest computer controlled sh*t, they will continue to put em on there. I have two 12 year old vehicles. One has electronic dash. When it breaks, I simply won't fix it.
the other one let me down yesterday by blowing the AM2 fuse. Just shut off going down the road on the way to work. Yet, my gas guzzling 1969 Charger got me there and back.it's not the factories/manufacturer's fault there's computer controlled everything. It's the BUYING publics.

[Ponch ®]

 The real problem comes on these new cars with EVERYTHING being computer controlled.   The climate control systems,  dashboard electronics, and all the touch screen crap is a potential nightmare.   Don't expect the factory to come to the rescue.    

tell me about it...the TIPM (the totally integrated something something that controls the keyfobs, windows, etc ) on the '10 Challenger took a dump a couple of weeks ago. Basically bricked the car, and it wasn't even the main computer (the PCM). Had to get it towed to the dealer and it even took them a day or two to figure it out.

Here's the beauty of it (and its the little things like this that make new cars a PITA): the current Challengers have this neat feature that automatically rolls down the windows about 1/4" when the door opens, then rolls them back up when it shuts so that the glass seals up nicely into the weatherstripping. Well, since the TIPM controls the windows, this was not working, and the windows were stuck in the fully up position...which means I couldn't shut my doors completely because the top of the window couldn't clear the weatherstripping. It wasn't a big deal because it happened at my work in a secured parking structure and I was able to get a tow truck right away, but if it had happened somewhere else less accessible (I was planning on driving the car to Vegas the next day!) where I may have had to leave the car for some time, it could have been a safety/security issue.

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

But....but....you still bought it. Possibly for big bucks (over $35k)
until the BUYING public stops buying all the latest computer controlled sh*t, they will continue to put em on there. I have two 12 year old vehicles. One has electronic dash. When it breaks, I simply won't fix it.
the other one let me down yesterday by blowing the AM2 fuse. Just shut off going down the road on the way to work. Yet, my gas guzzling 1969 Charger got me there and back.it's not the factories/manufacturer's fault there's computer controlled everything. It's the BUYING publics.

fair argument, but it misses the point of this thread.

1) I did buy it, but not with expectations that it will become a collector car
2) People buy things (cars among them) for more than utilitarian reasons: looks, etc. It's why at some point you bought a Charger instead of a station wagon that would also get you from Point A to Point B
3) If people stopped buying things because they are new, complicated, and may fail - it would stop innovation and all sorts of industries and economies would come to a halt. My smartphone acts up every now and then, but it sure as hell is much more useful than the rotary phone my grandma had back in the day.

[MaximRecoil]

My smartphone acts up every now and then, but it sure as hell is much more useful than the rotary phone my grandma had back in the day.

But not nearly as cool, and not even in the same universe with regard to reliability. Those old Western Electric phones were built like a tank.

[Mike DC]

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

Well, there goes any desire I had for a modern Challenger.  

Can you even close, and open the doors, when the car has a dead battery?  

-------------------------------

Mopar should be in deep shit for this because it's probably just a matter of time before it gets somebody killed.  Mopar will probably end up sued and I will cheer for the plaintiff when it happens.  

A car is not a laptop.  It puts lives at risk when things get unreliable.  Over the last 15 years it has become pretty clear that the auto industry is going to have to learn this the hard (class-action) way.  


I'm not for stopping innovation.  Just stopping idiotic & dangerous ideas.

[Cooter]

Again, until people stop buying all the latest trick bullsh*t, they will get worse. The minute someone gave 'feedback' to Chrysler and hadda 'wish list' for things like dual climate controls, notice how quick it became standard equipment??
CAUSE IT SELLS....

[Mike DC]

     
The first owner buys these things.   The 3rd owner deals with all the problems. 

[Aero426]

     
The first owner buys these things.   The 3rd owner deals with all the problems. 

And the factory is in the business of selling new cars with a warranty.     

[MaximRecoil]

I guess we'll know in 30 or 40 years.  I truly hope the hobby continues but I think anyone who believes these cars won't rust out or that anyone with a scope and schematic can fix it will be proven wrong.  (this is the part where Maxim smugly dismisses me for daring to disagree with him but since neither of us can prove out position for a few decades I choose to just say whatever will be will be)

Except, you didn't disagree with me, given that I never claimed that "these cars won't rust out" or that "anyone with a scope and schematic can fix it", and why would I make such asinine claims, given that neither of them are true? I see newer vehicles rusted out all the time, especially pickup trucks, and relatively few people even know what to do with an oscilloscope and/or schematics, much less can use them to actually fix something. In my post I said "a qualified person", which is about as far from "anyone" as you can get, and I included examples of problems they couldn't fix, and pointed out that in such cases, there exists people who could create a functionally-equivalent replacement from scratch.

I suggest you enroll in a remedial reading class. 

[Ghoste]

I shall do that right away if it pleases you oh great and wise one.

[Ghoste]

On second thought, no I don't think I will. 

[MaximRecoil]

So you're the one in the wrong (i.e., you completely misrepresented what I posted), and instead of owning up to it, you think it's time to go into "smartass mode"? How old are you?

[Aero426]

So you're the one in the wrong (i.e., you completely misrepresented what I posted), and instead of owning up to it, you think it's time to go into "smartass mode"? How old are you?

We all got your drift.

[Ponch ®]

In a nutshell, we're at a point where if a computer or other electronics fail, you may not even be able to shut your $#&@ door!

Well, there goes any desire I had for a modern Challenger.  

Can you even close, and open the doors, when the car has a dead battery?  

-------------------------------

Mopar should be in deep shit for this because it's probably just a matter of time before it gets somebody killed.  Mopar will probably end up sued and I will cheer for the plaintiff when it happens.  

A car is not a laptop.  It puts lives at risk when things get unreliable.  Over the last 15 years it has become pretty clear that the auto industry is going to have to learn this the hard (class-action) way.  


I'm not for stopping innovation.  Just stopping idiotic & dangerous ideas.

you could probably shut the door, you just have to force it. I didn't want to because I didn't wanna risk messing up the window or even breaking it.

[Mike DC]

 
But could you still OPEN the door from inside if the car lost electrical power?  Without needing much extra muscle to do it?   

[SRT-440]

Yes the new challengers windows go down a tad everytime u enter or exit...if the battery is dead u can still get in and out..it just will hit the weatherstripping at the top...it's not a death trap....and it's by no means hard to do. I do agree that in 40 yrs things like that will need attention...or ppl will just work around it...

[Ponch ®]

 
But could you still OPEN the door from inside if the car lost electrical power?  Without needing much extra muscle to do it?    

yeah, the doors still have ol' school door lock knobs just in case. Like SRT said, these issues are going the be the little things that will drive someone insane in 40 years when they malfunction.

And yes, im sure the electronics/computers in cars WILL be fixable in some way or another...but if they're supposed to be collector cars, and if even now people obsess over having date-correct spark plug wires in their collector cars....

[polywideblock]

so when are we going to hear of people buying up spares of  all the computer control gear etc.  and stashing it in readiness for the big "restoration one day "   

or will they  limit supply so you'll just buy a new one  

[myk]

so when are we going to hear of people buying up spares of  all the computer control gear etc.  and stashing it in readiness for the big "restoration one day " :scratchch

or will they  limit supply so you'll just buy a new one 

I've started doing it for my '97 Z28, '98 Mustang GT and '99 Ram Air F-Bird.  The PCM's, BCM's and other various control modules are readily available but there's no telling when that will come to an end.  I think people with 80's and 90's cars should be ok; they're not that different from 60's/70's muscle but with some electronic regulation.  Newer cars like the 5th 'Gen Camaro and new 5.0 Mustangs are as much technological as they are powerful; heaven forbid the person that has to restore that stuff...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[6spd68]

Newer cars like the 5th 'Gen Camaro and new 5.0 Mustangs are as much technological as they are powerful; heaven forbid the person that has to restore that stuff...

Having driven them, I couldn't agree more...  An amazing drive, but I don't think I'd want to dive into those electronics after they've sitting behind a barn for 15-20 years...

[PrisonHack]

  I had forgotten I started this thread during a long boring O/T shift. I remember in '85-'86 when the sky was falling because Ford was putting fuel injection on the mustang. At that time magazines were predicting the end of do it yourself mods because of the complex fuel injection, of course as it turned out it actually made the cars easier to modify. Now I know todays electronics are light years ahead of an EEC-IV set up, but people are also more tech savy now days. Being able to program parameters from a lap top might become a more valuble skill than turning wrenches soon. I think like others have said the availability of replacement parts could turn out to be the major downfall on the modern cars.

[SRT-440]

Being that I'm in the process of putting a modern 392 hemi in a b body....U can buy full wiring harnesses, ECU's, injectors...EVERYTHING. It's all plug and play now..no laptops..no drama...it can all be had now and 30 years from now will be no different. 

The difference in today and yesterday is the VOLUME of vehicles being made...some will be scrap, some will be collectable. A 2008-2015+ SRT8 Challenger WILL be collectable in years to come..as will GT's, GT500's, and SS's. Just the fact ppl take better care of cars these days will make a difference...Chargers, Road Runners, and cudas were just left for dead out in a yard or field and all it prolly needed was a new battery..LOL.

My 2004 Hemi Ram has 200K miles on it and only has had regular oil changes and spark plugs replaced... and is ten years old...hasn't lost any power and doesn't smoke...only problem it has is it needs the rotors turned.

I've seen what an old school motor does at 200K miles...and it's not much. 
But, time will tell...


I saw a '90's Toyota Supra (Fast and Furious model) with antique tags...still looked alive and well.

[PrisonHack]

   I think that is one reason to embrace the technology. An old carbed/points engine was awesome if it made it to 100K miles with no major issues. Now you don't even think about doing your first tune up till you hit that mileage.