Hydraulic roller lifters?

[Ghoste]

What would be the preferred brand for a performance roller lifter in a Mopar?

[Cooter]

Good question, but I fear you may get varying opinions.
I can't understand how the factory gets hyd. Roller lifters to go 300k miles, and the aftermarket has a hard time with  roller 440's that see less than 2500 miles/year.

[Ghoste]

Exactly, and that's why I posted it in the performance section, figuring that whatever the racers liked had to be good.

[Challenger340]

Good question, but I fear you may get varying opinions.
I can't understand how the factory gets hyd. Roller lifters to go 300k miles, and the aftermarket has a hard time with  roller 440's that see less than 2500 miles/year.

IMO, because those factories INTENDED to utilize Hydraulic Roller Lifters from NEW in their Blocks ? and provided for them.
and... 
if the Lifter Bores were too "short" for good Oil Pressure and "seal".... they redesigned the height of the lifter Bores in the Block to be conduscive over an "extended" service life. ie; Ford AB, Mopar SB, SB & BB Chev, etc., etc.

The retro HR's will work in many non-HR older blocks, as in go "up & down" in any Block/Bore...
but that is not to say service life, or their "performance" for extended periods will be satisfactory...
nor,
will the Oil Pressure leakage around worn/sloppy/ "short" Lifter Bores be sufficient to maintain Lifter hydraulic preload against ever increasing Valve Spring pressures and rates in a performance HR Cam application.

I have NOT had good success on the Dyno with retro-fit HR Lifters in BB Mopars... unless... I bushed the Lifter Bores FIRST to extend the short Bore and "control" the leakage around the Lifter to maintain it's preload.
even then,
the $1,000. labor to bush the Bores was NOT worth any gains versus a Flat Tappet Solid... or "Street" Mechanical Roller.

I've said too much already.... but IMO,  just dropping a set of  Hyd Roller lifters in a 40 year old BB Mopar Block Lifter Bores... and figuring you are "good to go"... well... all I will say is manufacturers will SELL.... whatever the market wants... and HR's are IMO... WAAAAY over rated in a stock short BB Mopar Lifter bore.

[Challenger340]

Exactly, and that's why I posted it in the performance section, figuring that whatever the racers liked had to be good.

IMO, because REAL "Racers" DO NOT use "Hydraulic Roller" lifters in their Engines.... PERIOD !

IMO, the 40 year old stock/sloppy BB Mopar Lifter Bore is too short "stock" to maintain adequate Oil Pressure and Lifter preload against increased Valve Spring pressures & rate = breakdown @ higher rpm's.
Anybody tells ya different... please post up the ACTUAL Engine Dyno Sheet.... I'd love to see it and eat crow !
Christ...
even a "link" to a reputable Dyno Shop.... not a "promotional" sales test would be great ! on an un-bushed BB Mopar lifter Bore

The Manufacturers will SELL, whatever the market WANTS... and if HYPE takes over like it has... once some supposed "guru" village Idge-yot, devoid of actual data says "works great"... everybody jumps in !
LEMMINGS !

[Ghoste]

Would you say the same situation exists for many 60's era engines, and specifically the Ford FE?

[Challenger340]

Would you say the same situation exists for many 60's era engines, and specifically the Ford FE?

I don't know as we don't do many FE Fords and they have HORRIBLE Oiling at the best of times....
but I suspect so, and I will find out pretty soon, because a 428 FE just left here last week as a "Machine Pkg" only that they are assembling themselves using retro-fit HR CompCams Lifters etc.
They are Dynoíng once completed, so should be interesting.

[Ghoste]

Okay, thanks.  Asking for a buddy of mine as he had an issue in a CJ and he asked me what the Mopar guys are running for hydraulic rollers and I didn't really know.  As far as I have ever heard Comp was popular for that but a lot of the Mopar guys I know use a flat tappet.
Would be interested to know how that Ford dynos as an afterthought.

[Challenger340]

Okay, thanks.  Asking for a buddy of mine as he had an issue in a CJ and he asked me what the Mopar guys are running for hydraulic rollers and I didn't really know.  As far as I have ever heard Comp was popular for that but a lot of the Mopar guys I know use a flat tappet.
Would be interested to know how that Ford dynos as an afterthought.

On the FE that just left.... we enlarged the FE's Oil Pump feed from the pickup through to the pump mounting face, then re-aligned/drilled the #1, 2 & 4 main feeds for more Oiling.
Nonetheless, if this FE demonstrates the same characteristics as other short bore HR Engines we've seen on the Dyno.... it will have "tickety-tic" problems after revv'ing.... sometimes all the time... or just plain old power curve "break-down" @ rpm on the Dyno.... that can't be tuned out.

What was your buddies HR Lifter FE Engines "Issue" ?

[Ghoste]

Came apart.  Barrie Poole is here in town and if you know anything about him then you would agree he knows his way around the FE stuff.  I honestly don't have a clue what has been put into the engine but it certainly wasn't slapped together.
As I understand, the retainer at the top of the lifter came out.

[Challenger340]

Came apart.  Barrie Poole is here in town and if you know anything about him then you would agree he knows his way around the FE stuff.  I honestly don't have a clue what has been put into the engine but it certainly wasn't slapped together.
As I understand, the retainer at the top of the lifter came out.

just my opinions... for what it's worth based on my experiences.
I am certainly no FE "expert", but I have made 700+hp with them on Performer RPM Heads, a "chore" I do not wish to repeat anytime soon !.. so goes without saying here... I have nothing but "respect" for ANYONE who chooses of their "own accord" to play with FE stuff ?  IMO, a Sado-masochism endeavor !
IMO,
The retainer at the top of the lifter, and "cup" popping out is indicative of valvetrain "float", or an excessive "clearance" between the Pushrod and the Lifter Cup where it sits during "operation".... then it(pushrod) just hammers and "pops" out the Lifter Cup.
It won't matter what "brand" lifter you use under those conditions.... NO "Hydraulic" Lifter will stay together under those conditions.

Also no secret here.... Valvetrain "Float" is either one of two conditions present.... not enough Valvespring pressure... allowing the valvetrain dis-connect because the Springs can NOT keep up at rpm...
or,
The "Hydraulic" Lifter bleeds down.... alowing the same "excessive" clearance as "Float" functionally during operation.

Nonetheless,
the 2nd above example as it relates to a Hydraulic Roller, still indicates a lack of sufficient Oil Pressure "maintained" around the Lifter "body" in the Lifter Bore, to maintain lifter preload(keep the Lifter pumped up) against the Valve Spring pressure, which we usually see here on the Dyno....  BEFORE it happens once installed in the vehicle.... as the rpm "power" curve breakdown.
From what you are relating...
it would seem to me that Buddy was rev'ing the Engine consistently above where we get to "see" this Valvetrain instability on the Dyno....
and,
is part/parcel of the exact same problem I spoke of earlier... with 40 year old short un-bushed Lifter Bores, where oil pressure "control" to Hydraulic Roller Lifter Body's.... is insufficient for the increased Roller "rates" of Lift vrs V/Spring pressures req'd.
Short... and sloppy lifter Bores... do NOT "seal" enough Oil Pressure to keep the Lifter pumped up against the V/Springs... Lifter bleeds down = then valvetrain dis-connect and Float !

Like I said... we don't use the "Hydraulic" Roller Lifters anymore in old generation Blocks... unless I BUSH the Lifter Bores, then Hone-Fit the Lifter Body clearance to longer Bushing at .0008" to .0009"( 8 to 9 TEN-Thousandths).
This adds about $1,000.00 to the machining costs... and even then... we must be doing it wrong here ? But IMO, the HR's just don't make any "extra" power worthy of the extra cost... versus... Flat Tappet Solids, or " Street" type Mechanical Rollers ?

It's a crap shoot really... some older Blocks have tighter lifter Bores that handle the HR's... some don't ?
All I know is this... because we DYNO everything we build BEFORE it leaves... I can't chance it anymore ?
So if the Customer wants an HR Cam & Lifters in this old stuff that WE are building... we BUSH the Bores... NO exceptions !
Otherwise...
we will notify you of our findings... then gladly "machining only" anything you want.... that YOU are assembling ? and have a great day ! 
   

[Ghoste]

Thanks, good info I'll pass it along.  Fords are very popular in my hometown and readily available so there are a lot of Cobra Jet running around here.  Its because of Sandy Elliott and his son John with Barrie Poole in the 60's.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Every mopar track-only car i know with roller motors are either bushed factory blocks or aftermarket aluminum. And all over them run mechanical rollers, not hydraulic.

[Ghoste]

And I should add the vehicle in question is street/strip with mainly street.

[Ghoste]

Any experience with Morel lifters?

[Paul G]

I am doing my research right now on a big block build I would like to put together in the near future. I have spoken to two local engine builders who both like to use HR lifters. This is going to be a street engine I am building, not a race engine turning high RPM every weekend. Maybe high RPM once in a while. I am going to have to question them a little more on the resoning for HR lifters? I would prefer to stay with traditional hydraulic flat tappet lifters.

[Challenger340]

Any experience with Morel lifters?

Nope.
But if they are a "Hydraulic" Roller Lifter.... same PROBLEM... the "Block" and it's Lifter Bores.... NOT the Lifter no matter brand.

[c00nhunterjoe]

In my opinion, you are not going to benefit from a roller cam in a street car. Even if youspend the money to bush the block, its a waste.

Just take half the money you were going to spend to build the hydraulic roller PROPERLY,  and buy a good solid cam and adjustable valvetrain. You will make just as much, if not more power, be reliable, and spend half as much cash doing it.

[Ghoste]

Do you think some builders are turning to hydraulic rollers in an effort to get away from the lobe wipe issues?  Or perhaps cam grinders are subtly pushing the hydraulic rollers for that reason?

[heyoldguy]

I believe Bob, we are experiencing the very thing on the dyno with a hydraulic roller cammed 505 right now. I have once used a hydraulic roller cam before, but have never liked the thought of 'em. Put one in the grandson's truck. Rattle, rattle, rattle.

So, we tried to save the $700 Crane hydraulic roller lifters that came with the customers engine. After every pull we have lifter rattle. Soon as the seal kit for the dyno's fuel pump gets here we'll try some more preload adjustments on the lifters per Crane. I did spec solid roller lobes for the cam in the engine so we can just go to solid roller lifters (like I wanted to run) when everything else fails. 

[Paul G]

Please enlighten us on the advantage of using a solid lifter cam, be it roller or flat tappet? I know the disadvantage is periodic lifter adjustments. But for a low use vehicle, primarily a big horse street car, occasional lifter adjustments should not be too much of a hassle to do, I wouldn't think?

With a solid lifter what happens to the oiling system since the lifter is not pumping up?

[Challenger340]

Please enlighten us on the advantage of using a solid lifter cam, be it roller or flat tappet? I know the disadvantage is periodic lifter adjustments. But for a low use vehicle, primarily a big horse street car, occasional lifter adjustments should not be too much of a hassle to do, I wouldn't think?

With a solid lifter what happens to the oiling system since the lifter is not pumping up?

these are just my opinions... check your own resources as YOU see fit.

Some background:
Take anything I say with a grain of salt... because I really just don't like relying on anything with a un-sealed "hydraulic" connection, responsible for maintaining anything related to ACCURATE Lift and Duration.... when it relates to Valve movement in a "performance" Engine.
Don't get me wrong... Hydraulic Lifter Cams do have their place with the big advantage to being "Quiet" running on those applications where it is wanted... as long as.... one recognizes up front their trade-offs to "quiet" running.... at the expense of accurate Valve movement to "performance" pieces.

NO un-sealed "Hydraulic" Lifter Valve connection... Roller or Flat Tappet, as it relates to an automotive Hydraulic Lifter devoid of "seals" to prevent leakage.... will ever transfer exact Valve movement from the Cam Lobe, as accurately as a "Solid" Mechanical Lifter connection... again Roller or Flat Tappet.

The "trade off's" to performance with quieter Hydraulics is directly proportional, and becomes greater... the more Lift, Duration, and Valve Spring Rate required,(more Hydraulic leakage), to keep up with higher and higher rpm Cam events, typical to attain more "Performance".

Back to your original questions:
Please enlighten us on the advantage of using a solid lifter cam, be it roller or flat tappet?
ACCURATE transfer of Cam events as it relates to LIFT and DURATION !
Take any given Cam events, and build 2 identical Camshafts.... ONE with a "Hydraulic" lifter.... ONE in a "Solid" Lifter.... The "solid" Lifter... being a mechanical transfer of movement.... transfers the given Lift & Duration 100%.... whereas... the "Hydraulic" lifter will only transfer whatever Lift & Duration it can.... depending upon a NON-Sealed oil pressure "Leakage", or "Bleed-down" against Valve Spring Pressure
This "leakage" gets worse according to the more Lift, Duration, RPM, and V/Spring rate pushing on the "leak".

I know the disadvantage is periodic lifter adjustments. But for a low use vehicle, primarily a big horse street car, occasional lifter adjustments should not be too much of a hassle to do, I wouldn't think?
NO Problem, but depending upon the Size and aggressiveness of the Cam Profile, periodic checking of Valve Lash is a good idea, and very easy once a guy gets on to it.
And once the Valvetrain is stabilized, with Today's quieter running tight lash Solids... adjustment is rarely required, and if it is ... usually indicates something else has happened ?
but normally.... with good Thermal Stabilization practise(warming up) actual adjustments are rarely required.
I have guys running the old xs282s Comp Solid Flat Tappet... haven't touched anything in 3 years of street driving.(checked... but no adjustments required)

With a solid lifter what happens to the oiling system since the lifter is not pumping up?
Absolutely NOTHING, Oil Pressure just leaks out around the Solid Lifter Body, the same as with any Solid or Hydraulic Lifter, just that the "Solid" Lifter does NOT rely on THAT same leaking Oil Pressure to transfer Cam Lobe movement to the Valve... like the "hydraulic" lifter does ?

IMO,
The biggest thing to remember, especially with Today's "Hydraulic" Rollers and their increased Lift Rates, Durations, and Heavier V/Spring Pressures required to keep up with their more aggressive Cam events....
is that it is a BALANCING ACT of V/Spring Pressure against OIL PRESSURE, to keep the "Hydraulic" Lifter pumped up ?
There are no "seals" around the Lifter Body in the Lifter Bores.... and there are no "seals" internal of the Lifter... it is simply "controlled" leakage by "fit"... against V/Spring Pressure.
And,
on 40+ yr old BB Mopar Blocks with typically .0013"-.0015" Lifter to Bore clearance, and "short" to boot... with only a .250" length to "seal" the .0013" to .0015" opening at the bottom of the bore...
well... THAT may be fine for a SLOW opening and closing Flat Tappet Hydraulic Lifter .... working against 110# Springs Seat, with 280# open pressure
but,
it might NOT work real well ? on a much FASTER opening and closing Hydraulic "Roller" Lifter with 165# Spring Seat, with 375# open Pressure ?
when at rpm...
that "lifeblood" Oil Pressure to keep the HR pumped up... squirts outa the bottom of the Lifter bore like shiat through a Goose !... rather than go IN the lifter so it can function ?

As always... check your own resources... do what YOU feel best, as these are just my opinions.
afterall...
being the internet... I could just be some 14 yr old behind a keyboard in his Mom's basement ?

[Cooter]

I baddest of the bad ass cams IMO, are solid flat tappet, then solid roller. BUT, if the early blocks (non roller cam blocks) can't keep lifters from eating themselves every 10k miles, I'll stick with my Solid flat tappet. Been in the Dart for almost 17 years and only checked/adjusted three times.

[c00nhunterjoe]

My cousins solid cam hasnt required an adjustment in 5 years. He checks it every spring and nothing has moved. Poly locks are a wonderful invention.

My girfriend's solid cam hasnt been adjusted in 2 years, only inspections.

In my opinion, if you have a reliable locked adjuster, and you require continual adjustments, then you have a cam wear issue.

[Cooter]

From what I've seen and read here, it would seem retro roller lifters on the street in an older block suck.