Have no spark I could use a few ideas and a Beer folks!

[cudaken]

 Car is a 1968 Road Runner with a 383. Has a Troker intake, 750 Holley, Hooker Headers, MP 509 Cam and Accel Duel Point Distributor. (I give the folks heck about lack of details so I included them but the Distributor is the only thing that has any real bearing) Miss Lumpy (Road Runner Nick Name) had sat for 8 years. Last year I had Her Running and Driven.

I won't go into details about this part, but to get her started Allen (41 Husk) and I had to disconnect the engine harness and hot wire her to run. She felt strong and sounded great! Then one day she would not start! I all ready knew with no ballast resistor it could fry the point, condenser or coil.

Things I have checked or replaced.

 1 New condenser
 2 Old MSD Coil that we thought was bad and replaced with a OEM type last year.
 3 New Coil (was done today) Accel unit.  
 4 Rotor Spins so timing chain is fine.
 5 Has gas.
 6 Hot wire to + side of coil is good
 7 Have power to the points
 8 Points are opening and closing
 
 What we don't have.

 1 When we moved the points with a screw driver and they had power, no spark
 2 Cranked her over with the coil wire grounded, no spark with any coil and we used 3 of them. One was the MSD that she would not start with, one she was running with and the brand new Accel coil.

 What I have not done.

 1 Clean the contacts where the 2 points and condenser join. But we have power there?

I know new parts can be bad, so could be the new condenser is bad. Not real likely but could be.   Same with the new coil?  

Now remember, she is total hot wire so there is no ballast resistor or key need to start her before! Only possibly I can think of was when I was driving her around the block was while the engine harness was not hooked to any of the ignition components. Fuse-able link was still installed and while crispy it still carried power? Headlights and such still worked? I know that could not be it, but just because it cannot be does not mean it is not the problem!    

Sure looking forward to some advices here, Allen, Jim and I where totally stumped!   But then again, that might not be that hard!    

Cuda Ken, needing some help again! I know it will be something simple!

Ken

[nvrbdn]

no electrical wizards yet?

ken has a hot wire to the coil. we checked power on both sides of the coil. also checked that power was at the wire connection for the points and condensor. while cranking the engine we get no spark from the coil wire that goes to the distributor. also while cranking the engine the points do not spark while coming in contact. ken had the car running last year with this exact set up. the coil was changed with two other coils, and everything was the same.

[b5blue]

Points....don't they supply ground for the coil to fire? So unhook - to coil and with a + jumper attached try touching a grounded wire to - and look for spark. Have you a "Dwell Meter" or analog OHMs meter? If so you can set it up across the points and crank the engine to get a pulse that will make the needle sweep.
Are the points set correctly? You must set each separate at the peak of the dizzy lobe as they are slightly out of phase by turning the rotor into the mech. advance with your hand while checking gap. 

[cudaken]

Points....don't they supply ground for the coil to fire? So unhook - to coil and with a + jumper attached try touching a grounded wire to - and look for spark. Have you a "Dwell Meter" or analog OHMs meter? If so you can set it up across the points and crank the engine to get a pulse that will make the needle sweep.
Are the points set correctly? You must set each separate at the peak of the dizzy lobe as they are slightly out of phase by turning the rotor into the mech. advance with your hand while checking gap. 

B 5 Blue, so you saying I need to hook a hot wire up to the points and see if they spark when engine is cranked over?

Last time she ran, she sounded great. Normal when points start to get out of yack they start running badly. Like I said, one day she ran fine and next time she just cranked and cranked but did not hit at all.

I had to remove one set of points when I installed the new condenser. I gaped both points to .018 when I first started her last year. When I reinstalled the point I had to remove I used the .018 setting again.

Thank you for the answer, Ken 

[firefighter3931]

Most coils will not last long with a constant 12v power supply. This is why Mopar incorporated the ballist resistor into the ignition system. 

I would start by doing a primary and secondary resistance test on all of the coils to see what you have 

If it won't fire with the ignition you need to check the wiring. Blue and Brown wires from the bulkhead are engine start and engine run. Using a voltmeter check power while cranking the engine and with the key in the forward position looking for 12v


Ron

[cudaken]

Most coils will not last long with a constant 12v power supply. This is why Mopar incorporated the ballist resistor into the ignition system. 

I would start by doing a primary and secondary resistance test on all of the coils to see what you have 

If it won't fire with the ignition you need to check the wiring. Blue and Brown wires from the bulkhead are engine start and engine run. Using a voltmeter check power while cranking the engine and with the key in the forward position looking for 12v
Ron

I would start by doing a primary and secondary resistance test on all of the coils to see what you have 

Ron, how do I do that?

If it won't fire with the ignition you need to check the wiring. Blue and Brown wires from the bulkhead are engine start and engine run. Using a voltmeter check power while cranking the engine and with the key in the forward position looking for 12v

Ron, Miss Lumpy is hot wired right now. Wire from + side of the battery to the hot side of the coil.

My engine harness is repaired now (I hope ) and after I get her running again I will install it.

Ken

[rt green]

ohm meter across the coil terminals

[rt green]

i'll look in my stuff and see if i have a electronic dist you can have. i have no low blocks anymore. 

[b5blue]

Points....don't they supply ground for the coil to fire? So unhook - to coil and with a + jumper attached try touching a grounded wire to - and look for spark. Have you a "Dwell Meter" or analog OHMs meter? If so you can set it up across the points and crank the engine to get a pulse that will make the needle sweep.
Are the points set correctly? You must set each separate at the peak of the dizzy lobe as they are slightly out of phase by turning the rotor into the mech. advance with your hand while checking gap. 

B 5 Blue, so you saying I need to hook a hot wire up to the points and see if they spark when engine is cranked over?

Last time she ran, she sounded great. Normal when points start to get out of yack they start running badly. Like I said, one day she ran fine and next time she just cranked and cranked but did not hit at all.
No OHMS setting would pulse continuity and the needle of an analog meter would raise in sweep from the pulses. (No power hooked up, meter runs off battery in meter.) That would just be a quick check of dizzy, confirming it's functioning. (No real data, just it's not completely shorted.)  + to coil and tapping a grounded wire to - should create a spark from the coil, again just testing function. I don't know any specifications for settings or readings for your setup but if the dizzy is pulsing and the coil sparks you can look for things like a bad/burnt coil to dizzy wire or if the car is flooded so bad the engine can't get combustion. (Pull the plugs to see if they are wet.)   

I had to remove one set of points when I installed the new condenser. I gaped both points to .018 when I first started her last year. When I reinstalled the point I had to remove I used the .018 setting again.
If it ran with that gap setting before you should be good.

Thank you for the answer, Ken 
You have MSD hooked up? (If I read you right?) I'd bypass that for now to just get spark again.

[cudaken]

Neal, I have a MSD coil. My MSD box is sitting in the garage right now.

Ken

[b5blue]

  Got ya. Ironically over the last few years "no spark" was driving me nuts! All started when I rebuilt the 440 and got rid of the 509 cam. Wanting a stock curve for the resto Mopar cam I went through 2 A1 Cardone rebuilt that were crap, the newer type Mopar that have scatter then sent the last rebuilt one to Don at FBO to be fixed and curved and got his A688 kit after swapping 3 ECU's and replacing the engine harness to boot. The car was running good but still had top end ping till it just quit one day leaving stuck on the end of a blind cure on a six lane highway next to a steel guardrail for 2 hours waiting for AAA. 
  Pissed as heck I gave up on all this crap and got a Firecore RTR from Ron, set the curve and advance for my build and now run 89 Oct. with no ping. When you "fix" lumpy leapfrog ECU's and all the other options and just get the RTR with it's full 12 volt coil. Wiring is stupid simple and it's not hard to adjust the rock steady dizzy.
  For now stick with what you have, get a coil and resistor matched for points. I've never seen a points dizzy fail so I'm certain this is something easy fixed. 
 

[cudaken]

Thanks aging for posting Neal.

Hum, I sure was hoping for some ideas!  Where is Cooter and A 383 Wing when you need them! 

OK, current (there is a pun there) plan of attack.

1 Check to see if the hot wire has 12 volts. I know there is current, but not what volts.

2 Test the coil. I have been told by my daily driver Mechanic to hook up a + wire to the + side of the coil. Ground the coil wire. Hook a wire to the - side of the coil and ground it for a split second. If the coil is good, there should be a spark! Sound right to you folks?

3 If coil is good make sure the capacitor is good. This time I am going to pull the whole distributor! I have searched on U Tube and watched how to test the capacitor. If I where a betting man, I would wager the new one is defective.   

4 Clean all the terminals where the points and capacitor screw together.

http://s83.photobucket.com/user/cudaken/media/Charger%20Site/1-12-27002_zps638b588d.jpg.html]

5 Clean the points and re gap

6 Clean the rotor where it meets the cap. I might added some silver solder to be safe I have a good contact. Old Hot Rod Slot Car Trick. 

7 Clean the lead to the - side of the coil, and the plug where you can disconnect one of the points when setting the dwell.

8 If it doses not start, buy a For Sale Sign!   

I know it is going to be something so stupid I am going to be pissed I missed it!

Another ideas?

Confused Ken

[cudaken]

Dam, I just looked at the picture I just posted closely. It sure looks like the red wire is cracked!  Know what I going to at closely when I have the distributor open Sunday! 

Ken

[rt green]

ken, i looked an found no low block dist.  thought I had one of those. I could keep digging though.  do you have an ohm meter?

[b5blue]

Ken he's right that red wire is pooched and all twisted up. If you can fix up 900 ft. of HO trains and keep them running you can fix that old dizzy.  (I couldn't keep 12 ft. of train running last time I tried, and I've rewired entire houseboats!  )

[cudaken]

Ken he's right that red wire is pooched and all twisted up. If you can fix up 900 ft. of HO trains and keep them running you can fix that old dizzy.  (I couldn't keep 12 ft. of train running last time I tried, and I've rewired entire houseboats!  )

Neal, I can help you with the train stuff!  Did not get it pulled Sunday, forgot it was Father's Day. So I had to do what my wife wanted to do?  Funny how that work's! 

Did help that the picture I posted is twice the sizes of the real thing.

Ken

[b5blue]

  I gave up on the trains and went to trashing R/C helicopters!    (My buddy Jeff has BIG PLANS for HO soon!)
Mark the location of the dizzy on the block and base with a sharpie before pulling and note exactly where the rotor is pointed. (I like to have it set at #1 before removing.) Yes the big pics help also! 

[cudaken]

Neal, I just so happened to bring home a marker today from work. Still going to test the coils just to be safe.

Thanks again for your input Neal.

Ken

[cudaken]

 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Did somebody say trains?

[cudaken]

Did somebody say trains?

Yep, I have a HO scale 174 sq foot layout in the garage. To bad I have to tear it apart to get Miss Lumpy under cover.

  http://s83.photobucket.com/user/cudaken/media/WPFun/Dash9.jpg.html]

[nvrbdn]

you dont have to ken. being summer, if your good with doing body work outside, you can keep your set up running so you have something to do on rainy days. but that means all the body work has to be outside.

[Daytona R/T SE]

Did somebody say trains?

  To bad I have to tear it apart to get Miss Lumpy under cover.

 

Can you put up one of those steel carports ?

The Ol' Lady had one when she owned the beauty shop.

It was very strong, held up well to high winds and strong storms.

Saved her car from hail damage many times.

I think it was 12 X 21 ft.

It was something like $500 and was put up in less than an hour by a couple of Mexicans.



You could keep the trains, AND work on the Road Runner in the shade.

[rt green]

how are you coming with lumpy, ken?      spark?

[b5blue]

Okay I didn't mean to derail this topic by bringing up HO trains! 

[nvrbdn]

oh,   when you talk trains,    you are talking kens language.   he has an awesome layout.  really neat.  tons of hours to set this up. i did a 4x8 set up and know how many hours were in that to get the scenery right. 3 trains running and all. that is nothing to this set up. then ken and i went to a place we have here that is this monster of a building where there are dozens of trains with thousands of feet of track and the public can go in and run them. everything is all done up. an amazing sight. ken can give the true dimensions of this place.  just fun if you like model railroading.

  ok, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[rt green]

ken, what brand of points do you have in there? is there any way you can install a couple of spendy sets of points? in the pic those remind me of cheaper  sets.   I would replace them, check your powers and grounds, and go from there. if no power at coil, check the junction block. hope you get it running buddy.   bruce

[cudaken]

oh,   when you talk trains,    you are talking kens language.   he has an awesome layout.  really neat.  tons of hours to set this up. i did a 4x8 set up and know how many hours were in that to get the scenery right. 3 trains running and all. that is nothing to this set up.

Jim you are either to kind or lying out your ass!  OK, part of the layout looks pretty good, but most looks like a 13 year old kid had $7,000.00 to blow and built it.

ken, what brand of points do you have in there? is there any way you can install a couple of spendy sets of points? in the pic those remind me of cheaper  sets.   I would replace them, check your powers and grounds, and go from there. if no power at coil, check the junction block. hope you get it running buddy.   bruce

Bruce my friend, have not had time to work on her. With yard work and and the heat.  Far as the points they are the Chevy Type that Accel copied when they design the distributor. Far as cost, there is no longer any cheap points that I can find!  Cheap is $15.00 each X's 2. Accel are $34.00 X's 2! 

I am 95% sure the real problem is the bad Red Wire leading into the distributor! 

While I know today everyone hates points, when that Accel Dual Point work's it had a stable spark to 7,000 RPM's.

After I get her running again, maybe I can get Jim and Allen to come over for a Tearing Down The Layout Party!

If I ever have money again, I will get a Fire Core from Ron! 

Cuda Ken

[Windsor]

Ken, how is the ground for the motor? I chased my tail on a 327 once, the ground cable was corroded. Just an idea.

[cudaken]

Ken, how is the ground for the motor? I chased my tail on a 327 once, the ground cable was corroded. Just an idea.

You know Windsor I have wounder that my self!  But, if the motor is not grounded would it crank over?  Mom and Dad bought the Road Runner new and I got it when I was 17. I think I pulled the engine the first time when I was 19. Far as I remember (will have to drag out the old photos) it has never had the rear motor ground strap like my 69 Charger and 70 Cuda. Has not had a rear ground for 38 years if not longer. 

I did paint the motor before I started it for the first time in 8 years and it ran that way well for 6 months. But, then again, if it cannot be the problem, it is!  Will check it, but that hot wire sure looks bad to me!

Thanks for the answer Windsor!

Ken

[Windsor]

I can't see the pic of the wiring, but if it looks screwed, fix it. Lol. I've seen weird shhh happen because of grounds, that's why I mentioned it.

[nvrbdn]

i went back to the "lumpy" photos and couldnt see a clear shot of a ground strap. and there are good shots of the fire wall. the motor is grounded by the battery cable.

  if im starting a motor in the back of a truck, i hook a ground to the block, hook a hot wire to the + side of the coil, and send a shock to the starter.

  crank...crank...pour a little fuel down the carb... crank...start.

[rt green]

wish I lived closer- I'd be right over

[cudaken]

I finally got the Distributor out tonight. While it is out I want to pull it most of the way down, clean it and make sure the advances arms and springs are working. After all it is 36 years old.

What would you folks clean and lube it with?

Ken

[fuzzycoronet]

i had duel point acell in my coronet rt done same thing pulled hair out for 2 weeks turned out to be bad condenser also hot wired straight to battery

[cudaken]

i had duel point acell in my coronet rt done same thing pulled hair out for 2 weeks turned out to be bad condenser also hot wired straight to battery

Thanks Fuzzy Coronet, but I have all ready replaced it. So you have a Police Coronet?

Ken

[b5blue]

Clean with PB Blaster and lube is motor oil I believe.    Ken keep in mind "it can't be bad because it's new" is not always true! I keep running into my own examples! Inner fender shields, idler arm bushings, ECU's, engine harness, 2 reman. dizzys and an ignition switch in just the last few years. Yesterday my fresh rebuilt 727 started acting up and I had to drive home 20 MPH in low....

[cudaken]

  Ken keep in mind "it can't be bad because it's new" is not always true!

Neal, that is my Motto! I will be testing the Condenser while I take it apart. Started tear down last night, but need to get out my small socket set.

Ken

[b5blue]

Good Luck buddy! 

[rt green]

any news?