Six Pack tuning

[Ghoste]

Swiped this from another site and thought it should be shared.

 Six Pack Tuning

Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Revised 02-2011
Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block.
Never the final word, but close enough for now, it gets updated from time to time.
This is not for the faint of heart. If you wondered why people shy away from six paks just read on.

I have compiled and rewritten the info contained from within along with my own experience from driving a six pak car with a lot of wow! for many years.

When tuned properly Six pak cars turn on! faster & run far better than single 4 barrel cars. If you want your six pak car to run like it should do the dance and have the right tools to make it happen. Patience must be used throughout the process. Much of the information here can be used on a 4 barrel as well.

Some theory of operation:

Things to Remember
Six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3.
Only the center carb has a acceleration pump
The outboard are always contributing fuel...always
The car must idle and run/drive like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.
Whacking the throttle in neutral to see if the outboards open is not a legitimate test!!!
Overjetting will not allow you to get the idle mixture correct as the jet size does contribute to what happens in the idle circuit. Go read the theory of operation in the Mopar book
Gasoline is flammable and will burn you.

A good vacuum gage, quality tach in the car and dial back timing light/digital tach [snap on timing light with numeric readout].

A good ignition system. MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80's vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
Firecore spark plug wires
Spark plugs of the proper heat range. Clean and gapped
0.040 mopar box
0.050 msd cd type ignition

Vacuum adv distributor with heavy enough springs to hold advance until 1200 rpm.
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb
Mopar viscous fan package

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
60%water-40% coolant with a bottle of water wetter

Pay attention here: If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake. That fuel burns off in the cruise mode and the air-fuel mixture goes lean.
This is transparent unless the a-f ratio is being monitored with a wideband a-f meter
There will be problems getting it to idle and drivability.

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.
Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required
Connect vacuum gauge to direct manifold vacuum source.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Automatic cars: be sure there is enough stall in the torque converter or the car may be a real pig idling in gear and have poor get-up & go.

Beware of mopar orange ignition control boxes that retard the timing etc. Orange boxes built after 1988 tend to have issues.

Preparation:
Outboards: Remove the lead plugs
Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them before the 1/8 setting. Gently is the word. If you look inside the carb bore you will see the needles poking in ever-so-slightly. They should be equal.

Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Yes I repeated that, explained way below

I you have the jetable metering plates, If so read their instructions and follow them.

Center carb
Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [Carb will have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.

If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve. Starting point jetting stock 340 use 62's, highly modified or stroker use 64's, big blocks start with 64, stroker 65.
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

Temporarily change out the brass sight plug on the fuel bowls (all 3) with Holley's clear sight plugs, to see the float level without no gas spills

Do not use an idle solenoid; a properly tuned car will have no "run on" issues

Factory style linkage, no progressive/ mechanical linkages!

Fuel pump: Carter street pump.
Factory style fuel lines only.
Use rubber hose only for tuning purposes.
Fuel filter should be in the stock location.
Make sure the linkage is set properly. The rods should fall into the hole on the carb lever. Do this after you set the throttle blades on the slot.
Check the linkage for any binding, manually open the center carb to wot and see if the secondaries will rotate open. Have an assistant floor the gas pedal and check for wide open throttle

[Ghoste]

Start car
allow engine to reach operating temp. Set idle to 1000 rpm

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1100 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will RAISE fuel level in the bowl,
Clockwise will LOWER it
Make only small 1/2 turns and wait 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level. Patience!!
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle for 900 rpm
If the car won't idle:
Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.
Advance the initial timing a bit to see if it helps idle.
Be sure operating temp is 195-210
Be sure some fool did not put light springs in the distributor.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Chart:
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb.

Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum.
This is where the digital[numeric readout] tach is better than the vacuum gage.
If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding. Overjetting contributes to this

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

If you are 2 turns out on the ctr carb idle mixture and the idle is still too lean, the outboards need to contribute more fuel to the idle. Open the idle mixture screws another 1/8 turn ccw. Now they will be out a total of ¼ of a turn ccw. Now go back and rset the idle mixture and rpm.

If the idle is too rich no matter what you do...Most times you are over jetted or you have other issues....
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control. At idle fuel flows from the float chamber thru the main jet then into a the small angular but horizontal passage that leads across to a vertical passage and onto the idle feed restriction where it is mixed with the air coming in from the idle bleed. Remember this. Do not over jet!

Beware of other issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve, wrong thermostat etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.



Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm some point and then falling off. In some applications the engine does not care, so see chart.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7 See how close you are between the vac gauge and af meter.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 800-950 depending on engine build, hook up vac adv and make sure car still runs/drives properly.

How do you know when you are "there"?
If the car gets up and goes seamlessly you are there
The engine when hot soaked restarts immediately without touching the throttle
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean and white.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
When the engine is rev'd and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.
The vacuum advance is hooked up and the car drives well.


OK if you made it this far it's time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.
Some cars may enjoy a lighter spring.

The secondaries rods should be disconnected and removed and the vac signal blocked.

Please do this safely and with regard for others....
Go out and drive the car on the center carb and determine what rpm the car starts to fall off in power. Take note.
The car should have a ton of power just with the center carb.
Be sure to several wot runs.
Please do this safely and with regard for others...

Reconnect carb linkage and vac lines, be sure to set the length of the rods properly.
Now go for a drive and see what rpm the six pak hits.
Please do this safely and with regard for others....
Hold first gear or 2nd gear, run up to 2500 rpm and floor it. What should happen is the secondaries open without any hesitation and the cars gets up and really goes.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced.

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top. Bogs are usually from the secondaries opening too soon!!

Notes:
Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it's full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.
Some cars like staggered jetting.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

If car spits fuel out of the vent(s), it means the o ring on the needle seat is bad.

It's always easier to remove the front carb for rejetting.
Tape over intake and make sure there is never any unaccounted for hardware

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Chart to shorten the slots if you have a non adjustable mopar distributor.
Distributor degrees X 2 + initial= total
32-36 total advance typically
No adv till 1200
Slow rate until all in at 24 - 2800 rpm, heavier cars like later than sooner.

dist. degrees / slot size
6.............. .340
7............... .355
8............... .375
9............... .390
10.............. .405
11.5 ........... .420
12.............. .435
13.............. .445
14.............. .460
15.............. .475
16.............. .490
17.............. .505
18.............. .520

[fizz]

To the guys with experience, is this pretty accurate?

[Tom Q]

To the guys with experience, is this pretty accurate?

...you guys are amazing...no the person who wrote that is clueless   
...what do you think? all that typing is for entertainment

Actually that possibly accurate guide has blown up into a technical document that will be in real print for your reading pleasure about June.

[BSB67]

To the guys with experience, is this pretty accurate?

Not that much.

[myk]

Alrighty then...

[b5blue]

  Pretty good general overview from what I know.  Not covered points...cam selection, head selection/compression and axle ratio effects on tuning. The "just use black springs".....I think that is too limiting of a statement.
  Ghoste I think it was a good call posting so others can find this in search. Here is more.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=5995396&Searchpage=1&Main=5995174&Words=+Warrant_Officer&topic=&Search=true

[66FBCharger]

 

[fizz]

Tom Q, I certainly mean no offense, and do appreciate the effort that people take the time to print tech info. But, search this topic and you find 100 ways to skin the same cat. There are people on this site that are pretty much the go to guys on THIS site, and I was simply seeking their opinion.

[fizz]

I would like some opinions about component selection when building an engine around a six pack setup, as backwards as that may sound. Thanks

[ottawamerc]

I have gone over this article numerous times to setup mine and it has worked well for me. It atleast gives you a good description of how they work   When the OP says just use the black springs he's right I tried all of them and only the black ones worked well for the transition to the secondaries, also get a wideband O2 gauge it will save you head aches and time.

Have fun and good luck

Scott

[BSB67]

I have gone over this article numerous times to setup mine and it has worked well for me. It atleast gives you a good description of how they work  When the OP says just use the black springs he's right I tried all of them and only the black ones worked well for the transition to the secondaries, also get a wideband O2 gauge it will save you head aches and time.

Have fun and good luck

Scott

There is so much wrong with that write-up it is sad.  Worse yet, the amount of people that know little about carbs actually believe it.  If the black spring works for you great.  I have used the six pack on 300 hp 383 to 600 hp 500 in motor and a few engines in between.  Car weight, gear and converter will effect the spring choice as well.  Saying one spring is the best is like saying all guys wear 32" waist pants.  If you use an O2 meter to pick the spring, it will likely slow the car down.   The best spring choice for performance can only be determined with track testing.  Also, several other carb set-ups will effect the best spring choice.

If all you are looking to do is to get your six pack running marginally adequate, follow the write-up

[ottawamerc]

Sorry BSB67 did you miss the part that I wrote "I tried all of them"? I stand by my earlier comment that this article is a good reference for those who wish to try to run the 6 packs, My 3000+# 71 with 355 gears keeps me firmly planted in my seat to to 127 MPH that I have had it too so far So until BSB67 writes a more definitive setup (sorry to bash ya)  I would recommend reading this.

Scott

[fizz]

I am one of those guys that know little about tuning carbs. Anyone who writes up tech is appreciated. Hopefully, I will have a good starting point as I bought a six pack setup complete that was set up by a reputable tuner. Thanks for any response I can get.

[BSB67]

Sorry BSB67 did you miss the part that I wrote "I tried all of them"? I stand by my earlier comment that this article is a good reference for those who wish to try to run the 6 packs, My 3000+# 71 with 355 gears keeps me firmly planted in my seat to to 127 MPH that I have had it too so far So until BSB67 writes a more definitive setup (sorry to bash ya)   I would recommend reading this.

Scott

You can do what ever you like.  My knowledge comes from my real experience and data collection, not what some else wrote.

127 mph means very little to me, as does your seat of the pants feeling.  I prefer meaningful data.  If you are happy, that is all that matters.  But if you don't understand why, then it is simply, ignorance is bliss.  I'm an advocate of getting forum members to think verses doing what someone says.

It amazes me how many folks today don't really have any desire to learn something on their own through trial and error, through the scientific process.  They just want some one to tell them what to do.

I will offer this, if someone wants to set-up their engine exactly as described in the write-up, I will give them $200 if I cannot make their car go .2 sec quicker, and 2 mph faster.  Call me any time and we can schedule some time at PRP.  If I make it .2 sec/2mph faster, you give me $200, and another $200 for each additional .1 sec and/or 1 mph.   It will take two outings, most likely, with some work inbetween.  Although I have done it all in one, baseline and improvement in one outing.  Just send me a PM.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Sorry BSB67 did you miss the part that I wrote "I tried all of them"? I stand by my earlier comment that this article is a good reference for those who wish to try to run the 6 packs, My 3000+# 71 with 355 gears keeps me firmly planted in my seat to to 127 MPH that I have had it too so far So until BSB67 writes a more definitive setup (sorry to bash ya)   I would recommend reading this.

Scott

You can do what ever you like.  My knowledge comes from my real experience and data collection, not what some else wrote.

127 mph means very little to me, as does your seat of the pants feeling.  I prefer meaningful data.  If you are happy, that is all that matters.  But if you don't understand why, then it is simply, ignorance is bliss.  I'm an advocate of getting forum members to think verses doing what someone says.

It amazes me how many folks today don't really have any desire to learn something on their own through trial and error, through the scientific process.  They just want some one to tell them what to do.

I will offer this, if someone wants to set-up their engine exactly as described in the write-up, I will give them $200 if I cannot make their car go .2 sec quicker, and 2 mph faster.  Call me any time and we can schedule some time at PRP.  If I make it .2 sec/2mph faster, you give me $200, and another $200 for each additional .1 sec and/or 1 mph.   It will take two outings, most likely, with some work inbetween.  Although I have done it all in one, baseline and improvement in one outing.  Just send me a PM.

i would like to attend the outting. i love 6 packs and would love to watch some live action, especially when we are betting! my cash is on bsb67