So this barn find finds me...

[foobar]

A family member has owned this numbers matching 69 RT (XS29L9B...)  since 1970-71.  It was a daily driver, then a weekend car.  It was appreciated and driven (not quite Dukes style, but...) 10 yrs or so.  At some point he spun it and received some front end damage.  Since the early 80s, it has not run and was been garage-kept under a tarp.  I believe it was also garage kept while being driven.  

I have not seen the car in years.  The damage is said to be limited to the front left and the interior is said to be very good shape-- no rips in the upholstery, cracks in the dash, etc...  Everything in the pics, below, is factory original.  For sure, it needs a hood and a left fender (there *might* be fiberglass parts that were obtained for the repair with the car).  The owner has been told by a low-ball-offer-person-creature that there is frame damage.  I am not sure that this is so and suspect it was a ploy to try and scare the current owner into dumping it.  The usual hoses, consumables would need to be replaced, as well.  I am not sure what shape the mechanicals are in.  It has been sitting.

So, the questions are:  
1) what is a fair price for this project car?  This is a family member, after all...
2) what would be involved to fix?  Acquiring parts to replace the damage, repainting, etc...  
3) Thoughts on possible frame damage in terms of repair and affecting overall value?
4) Odds on it cranking over v. needing a complete rebuild of the engine and driveline?

As the car is ~90% complete, my thoughts are to restore to original spec w/ no resto-mods.  Comments?  Thoughts?  I have my strong suspicions as to what its worth, but would like to hear from the forum.

Oh yea, there might be a complete 440 on stand as part of the deal.

TIA

[foobar]

Here's another.  Gotta love low-res camera phones...

[myk]

I wish I could say for sure, but the low-rez photos do not say much about the car; certainly not anything about its frame.  You're going to have to go out there and see it for yourself-this is the only way you'll really know what the car's condition is.  When it comes to buying and selling with friends and family things get tricky, as money changes things for better or for worse.  What price have they thrown out there for you? 

[foobar]

Yea, I know I have to go up there.  I am planning a trip in a week or so.  The lowball-critter threw out $2500-- give him credit for trying.  No number has been asked, as they do not know the value.  They only know it is worth more than the lowball.  This would be a low-confrontational kind of deal-- the owner past away and they want the vehicle to have a good home.

[myk]

$2500?  That's a slap in the face, if the car only has front end damage that requires a fender, hood and some other odd ends.  A grill alone is worth $2500 and it sounds like the rest of this car is in good shape; at least I hope it is.  As for the motor turning over?  It's been 30 years, so I wouldn't count on it.  Do a fluid change, hand crank it some, and then try to fire it, but I'm more concerned with the true condition of the car and its frame.  Keep in mind what my bodyshop told me back in the 90's when I jumped my car off of a freeway on-ramp onto the freeway below: anything is fixable as long as you've got the money and the time for it...

[foobar]

I have seen this car many times in the past.  The rest of it is like it is a 5yr old daily driver.  

I am pretty sure the engine/carb and trans would need a rebuild to keep them from grenading.  Not sure about the rear end.  Shocks, tires, brakes, hoses, wipers, door gaskets...  w/o the sheet metal and front trim, it would be mildly expensive.  But seeing how it is mostly complete and I know the history, I believe it is worth the effort.

[fy469rtse]

From what I can see in photos and angle of hit , keep in mind the reproduce these parts and not a huge cost,
Inner skirt damaged left side of radiator support , top of radiator support repair because of stamped matching numbers on there,
Possible damage to end of rail, and side of rail where bumper iron has compressed, damage to bolts area,
If car has been stored as you said , and kept dry all these years,
Bargain at ten , twenty,
No sign of huge hit , no obvious damage to cowl, bonnet hasn't been pushed into it , bonnet hinge looks ok,
Great find
Spray those bores and let them soak, gently edge motor back and forth at crank, when it turns over easily, dump the oil filter and oil , replace with new then give her a go , you never know your luck

[Ghoste]

Whats it like underneath?  I'm going to guess it's a 10k car right now but its likely worth more than that.

[myk]

Again, I'd like to know more about the possible frame damage, but even with THAT I would say the car's worth at least what Ghoste mentioned.  Then again, we're talking family here so who knows...

[hawkeye]

The front end (assuming no frame damage) might be the easy part.  Very few of these cars survived without rear quarter, trunk or dutchman panel rust, especially the ones that were driven regularly.

[6spd68]

Go for it, I'd say keep it to original spec.  If the engine in the car is #'s matching, rebuild, and put her back together as a restored to original car.  Big money + fun to drive 

Best of luck sir 

[Homerr]

If it was an easy fix it probably would have been done years ago.

[Troy]

I wish I could say for sure, but the low-rez photos do not say much about the car; certainly not anything about its frame.  You're going to have to go out there and see it for yourself-this is the only way you'll really know what the car's condition is.  When it comes to buying and selling with friends and family things get tricky, as money changes things for better or for worse.  What price have they thrown out there for you? 

That grill isn't worth much! It's toast. The grill and bumper are folded down, bumper brace is back by the upper control arm, and I can see where the fender was jammed into the cowl. A hit that hard would have pulled everything to that side - which likely bent/warped/ripped the fender on the other side. There's a good bet that it does in fact have frame damage - but probably not extensive. My guess is that the whole engine compartment is pointing a few degrees to the left. Take some measurements diagonally from corner to corner and from bolt holes that have a common location. Look for a sharper bend in the frame rail than normal where it angles back to the firewall and also look at the rails in the immediate areas around the k-frame mounting points. Check the inner fenders (especially driver's side) for extra bends/creases, the floor pans/firewall where the rails attach for rips, and the torsion bar mounting points for dents. I have learned that nearly all of these cars could use a trip to the frame shop for some tweaking (wrecked or not!). Since it's still together you should be able to get it rolling and to a frame shop *first*. Don't take it apart because it's easier for them to "see" what has to move. Probably looking at a few hundred dollars if nothing was physically ripped off.

That's just to straighten it. Parts you'll need to put it back together will include both fenders, hood, grill frame, grill, valance, valance support, bumper, bumper brackets, and strut rods. There are some other various brackets and shields that may have been damaged but I can't tell from the pictures. One of mine was in a wreck like that and the dash frame was bent from impact with someone's knees and the steering column crush zone was crushed.

The air cleaner is still on it so that's a good sign - unless it's been used as a home by mice. Try turning the engine over by hand. If it isn't seized it may fire up with a good carb on it. Assume the transmission will need "freshened up" but the engine may very well be just fine. I wouldn't concern myself with the spare 440 unless the current engine is seized or you plan on building it up (which it doesn't sound like you do). If you can get it thrown in on the deal then sell it to offset your other costs.

If you can get a real idea of the damage and it isn't horrible... with a good interior and it being numbers matching R/T in a popular color I'd estimate a selling price at least $7k and maybe above $10-13k if there's no rust or other major issues. If you need to replace rust elsewhere, the pot metal trim is badly pitted, and/or the interior pads are dry rotted you need to adjust downwards. Finding and purchasing a nice grill will be the biggest challenge and probably the biggest expense other than paint.

If the damage is repaired correctly I wouldn't expect a serious drop in the overall value. I've had exactly one Charger that wasn't wrecked at some point it its life. Fixing some bent pieces is a whole lot less invasive than major rust replacement.

Troy

[bakerhillpins]

Yea, I'm with Troy on this one. The fantasy of the story is hiding the extent of the damage.  I can't imagine how your not going to have to put that on a puller.   

[Dreamcar]

Go for it, I'd say keep it to original spec.  If the engine in the car is #'s matching, rebuild, and put her back together as a restored to original car.  Big money + fun to drive 

Best of luck sir 

[Mike DC]

I agree with Troy.  The frame is probably bent, but probably not severely.

And yes, replacing that stupid grille assembly will probably cost more than it takes to straighten the frame.  The plastic is not reproduced, and the values of nice complete used '69 grilles started climbing literally 25 years ago.



BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to respray the entire car during this repair.  (I'm not suggesting blowing the entire car apart or anything, just hit the exposed outer skin surface and keep the same factory shade.)  The value of original paint is mostly wiped out when you lose the entire front clip.  A respray would be more durable, match better, look better, and the finish on all the panels would eventually age at the same rate.    

[myk]

I wish I could say for sure, but the low-rez photos do not say much about the car; certainly not anything about its frame.  You're going to have to go out there and see it for yourself-this is the only way you'll really know what the car's condition is.  When it comes to buying and selling with friends and family things get tricky, as money changes things for better or for worse.  What price have they thrown out there for you?  

That grill isn't worth much! It's toast.

I wasn't talking about THAT particular grill, just Charger grills in general.

In any case, even with frame repair that car might prove to be easier and cheaper than scouring the world for another similar car, with numbers matching this and that and blah blah blah.  Then again, he hasn't even seen the car yet, we don't even know if he'll end up buying it, it's way too early in the game for that kind of talk...

[6spd68]

This is true, all we can do is hope he does get it, and that there aren't too many unseen gremlins waiting for him...

[tan top]

I wish I could say for sure, but the low-rez photos do not say much about the car; certainly not anything about its frame.  You're going to have to go out there and see it for yourself-this is the only way you'll really know what the car's condition is.  When it comes to buying and selling with friends and family things get tricky, as money changes things for better or for worse.  What price have they thrown out there for you?  

That grill isn't worth much! It's toast. The grill and bumper are folded down, bumper brace is back by the upper control arm, and I can see where the fender was jammed into the cowl. A hit that hard would have pulled everything to that side - which likely bent/warped/ripped the fender on the other side. There's a good bet that it does in fact have frame damage - but probably not extensive. My guess is that the whole engine compartment is pointing a few degrees to the left. Take some measurements diagonally from corner to corner and from bolt holes that have a common location. Look for a sharper bend in the frame rail than normal where it angles back to the firewall and also look at the rails in the immediate areas around the k-frame mounting points. Check the inner fenders (especially driver's side) for extra bends/creases, the floor pans/firewall where the rails attach for rips, and the torsion bar mounting points for dents. I have learned that nearly all of these cars could use a trip to the frame shop for some tweaking (wrecked or not!). Since it's still together you should be able to get it rolling and to a frame shop *first*. Don't take it apart because it's easier for them to "see" what has to move. Probably looking at a few hundred dollars if nothing was physically ripped off.

That's just to straighten it. Parts you'll need to put it back together will include both fenders, hood, grill frame, grill, valance, valance support, bumper, bumper brackets, and strut rods. There are some other various brackets and shields that may have been damaged but I can't tell from the pictures. One of mine was in a wreck like that and the dash frame was bent from impact with someone's knees and the steering column crush zone was crushed.

The air cleaner is still on it so that's a good sign - unless it's been used as a home by mice. Try turning the engine over by hand. If it isn't seized it may fire up with a good carb on it. Assume the transmission will need "freshened up" but the engine may very well be just fine. I wouldn't concern myself with the spare 440 unless the current engine is seized or you plan on building it up (which it doesn't sound like you do). If you can get it thrown in on the deal then sell it to offset your other costs.

If you can get a real idea of the damage and it isn't horrible... with a good interior and it being numbers matching R/T in a popular color I'd estimate a selling price at least $7k and maybe above $10-13k if there's no rust or other major issues. If you need to replace rust elsewhere, the pot metal trim is badly pitted, and/or the interior pads are dry rotted you need to adjust downwards. Finding and purchasing a nice grill will be the biggest challenge and probably the biggest expense other than paint.

If the damage is repaired correctly I wouldn't expect a serious drop in the overall value. I've had exactly one Charger that wasn't wrecked at some point it its life. Fixing some bent pieces is a whole lot less invasive than major rust replacement.

Troy

yeah !!  what Troy  & the others say  

check to see if the driver door opens & closes ,  does it open & close with out catching ,  whats the vent window gap like to A -post / windshield pillar ? has it poped out a little ? , check door to quarter gap ,  also have a good look at windshield to see if its popped out or cracked , also look for any creases in roof ,  also factor in k frame & suspension prolly bent to some extent , pictures don't show anything really !!

sounds like a awesome project , fingers crossed for you that we are all  thinking the worst & its a easy fix    

[foobar]

If it was an easy fix it probably would have been done years ago.

Nope, he was famous for starting projects, but not finishing...  Want to ask how long the kitchen cabinets where in process?  ;-p

[foobar]

<snip> I'm going to guess it's a 10k car right now but its likely worth more than that.

My thought was $7,500 to $10,000.  Based on the comments-- all of which were awesome guidance BTW-- looks like I was in the ball park.  The information provided has been fantastic and I want to thank all of you for it.  Quite frankly, I never would have guessed the grill would be the most expensive and difficult part (YearOne-- you listening?)

I don't think I can reasonably let this opportunity pass by.  I am planning to visit for a personal inspection.  Unless something dramatic pops up, I will most probably pull the trigger.

[foobar]

<snip>
If the damage is repaired correctly I wouldn't expect a serious drop in the overall value. I've had exactly one Charger that wasn't wrecked at some point it its life. Fixing some bent pieces is a whole lot less invasive than major rust replacement.

Troy

Fantastic information-- thanks!

[foobar]

<snip> Possible damage to end of rail, and side of rail where bumper iron has compressed, damage to bolts area,
If car has been stored as you said , and kept dry all these years,
Bargain at ten , twenty,
No sign of huge hit , no obvious damage to cowl, bonnet hasn't been pushed into it , bonnet hinge looks ok,
Great find
<snip>

I will keep these in mind on the visit.  Many thanks.

[foobar]

<snip> The plastic is not reproduced, and the values of nice complete used '69 grilles started climbing literally 25 years ago.

My fear realized.  I just did not think it would be the plastic parts.  I was thinking body panels would be the rarer items.

BTW, it wouldn't be a bad idea to respray the entire car during this repair.  (I'm not suggesting blowing the entire car apart or anything, just hit the exposed outer skin surface and keep the same factory shade.)  The value of original paint is mostly wiped out when you lose the entire front clip.  A respray would be more durable, match better, look better, and the finish on all the panels would eventually age at the same rate.    

I agree.  I don;t want mis-matched paint on the body panels.  Oh yea, I'm gonna keep it original and just freshen it up.  Same as it came from the factory.

[foobar]

This is true, all we can do is hope he does get it, and that there aren't too many unseen gremlins waiting for him...

Is this project going to be cheaper than buying a boat?  ;-p

[Mike DC]

  
The grille plastic is an unusual situation.  It's made of 5 separate pieces and several of them call for very expensive toolings.  Most old car grilles in this much demand would have gotten a reproduction 15+ years ago.  But we may never get new Charger grilles, barring some unprecedented technological leap that dramatically drops the tooling prices.


When they did the "Dukes of Hazzard" remake movie in 2004, the film crew gave up on getting a whole fleet of '69 grilles.  The got some cheap fiberglass knockoffs (not usable for your car) to use on their stunt cars.  They painted the grilles entirely black on all the Generals to help hide the inconsistency.
 

[DTB]

 
The grille plastic is an unusual situation.  It's made of 5 separate pieces and several of them call for very expensive toolings.  Most old car grilles in this much demand would have gotten a reproduction 15+ years ago.  But we may never get new Charger grilles, barring some unprecedented technological leap that dramatically drops the tooling prices.


When they did the "Dukes of Hazzard" remake movie in 2004, the film crew gave up on getting a whole fleet of '69 grilles.  The got some cheap fiberglass knockoffs (not usable for your car) to use on their stunt cars.  They painted the grilles entirely black on all the Generals to help hide the inconsistency.
 

Care to explain to me more about the cheap fiberglass knockoffs?

[Baldwinvette77]

I think it was this

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, that seems to be what they used.  Cheapo item, probably no provisions for the hardware, all the slatted openings are visibly blocked off flat to make it feasible to mold from fiberglass, etc. 

The DOH crew ended up drilling a bunch of holes in the blocked-off flat areas to get some semblance of airflow through the grille.  I'm not sure how they fastened them into the car.  (I wouldn't be shocked if it was a bunch of zip-ties or bailing wire or some other crude method.) 

[foobar]

When they did the "Dukes of Hazzard" remake movie in 2004, the film crew gave up on getting a whole fleet of '69 grilles.  The got some cheap fiberglass knockoffs (not usable for your car) to use on their stunt cars.  They painted the grilles entirely black on all the Generals to help hide the inconsistency.

Interesting.  Money is usually not a problem for those guys.

[Indygenerallee]

Interesting.  Money is usually not a problem for those guys.

Contrary, most movie cars are thrown together very quickly and usually the only one that looks good is the close up car and even then if you get close up to them in real life you see the multiple flaws, all about making a killer profit at the box office not making every car show quality.

[DTB]

Not to take this more off topic but after some digging I found this picture. Hadn't paid much attention to them before it was mentioned. Hiding behind the push bar, it wouldn't be as noticeable.

[Mike DC]

 
Yep, there's one of the fiberglass grille knockoffs.


Movie crews actually do spend a lot on muscle cars.  It just doesn't look like it because they just have practically opposite priorities from us.  They don't need the grille of a stunt car to look nice up close.  But that same raggedy stunt car might have a custom hydraulic E-brake that keeps working reliably after 25 hard slides in a row.

[Cooter]

There was a guy here doin em up. Hadda whole grocery cart full of grille centers for 69.
Then came all the 'opinions'..........

[Baldwinvette77]

There was a guy here doin em up. Hadda whole grocery cart full of grille centers for 69.
Then came all the 'opinions'..........

yeah i read about that, He did good work, and what were they like 800$? too much for me, but for one of those guys who run to amd...... 

Seriously though, why is stuff so expensive, the next car i do is gonna be a camaro or mustang  , Look good, are cheap, the end

[Indygenerallee]

Seriously though, why is stuff so expensive, the next car i do is gonna be a camaro or mustang  rotz, Look good, are cheap, the end

Basic economics, supply and demand....

[six-tee-nine]

There was a guy here doin em up. Hadda whole grocery cart full of grille centers for 69.
Then came all the 'opinions'..........

Remeber that one too. Plain sad for all the time he invested in those parts.

If you need a good quality repro part, buy it, pay for it, otherwise shut up.....

[Cooter]

There was a guy here doin em up. Hadda whole grocery cart full of grille centers for 69.
Then came all the 'opinions'..........

yeah i read about that, He did good work, and what were they like 800$? too much for me, but for one of those guys who run to amd...... 

Seriously though, why is stuff so expensive, the next car i do is gonna be a camaro or mustang  , Look good, are cheap, the end

Try $1500.00, but look how many would pay that vs how many wouldn't.  Buy once, cry once.
yep, it's sad. One can but the entire frt. Clip for Camaro, for what two fenders cost for Chargers.

[Bandit72]

I've seen a lot worse fixed (judging from the pics). Check the doors, make sure they open and shut ok. Check the roof and make sure it isn't dented or "creased" anywhere from the body moving. These can be tell tale signs real quick of bigger problems.

[fy469rtse]

Even if its worse, still a good pick up , rest of the car is in great shape for its age ,
Post some good photos once you go and inspect ? We are all waiting now 

[foobar]

I am able to see the car next weekend and will have to make a buy/pass decision.  Can some one point me to a 69-specific "before you buy" checklist/guide?  Thanks in advance.

[foobar]

Ok, so I spent a half a day looking it over and spent a couple of weeks thinking about it and I think that I am going to pass on this one.  Basically, the work required will amount to a frame-off.  I don't have confidence that I can find the right people (local to me) to help me with each part of the rebuild.

If anyone is interested in a real 69 RT, PM me.  The car is located in Long Island and the owner is looking for five figures...

[1965gp]

I have to say I have had pretty good luck getting old motors that have sat getting started. Done it to quite a few cars with pretty good success.

As others have said- soak cylinders with marvel mystery oil for a week. Drain oil and put in fresh with motor flush additive. Turn by hand a few times- soak again with mystery oil. Install new / rebuilt carb. Crank a few times with no fuel and plugs removed until all oil out of cylinders. Then new plugs, wires, points and get it to kick with a little gas down carb. New fuel pump run to clean fuel source- fire it up. It will smoke like crazy (all that oil on cylinder walls) ; let it in a couple minutes; change oil. Do this several times until oil stays clean.

Done this to probably 6-7 cars with excellent results

[foobar]

I am very comfortable w/ engines, too.  I wish it were just getting the engine started... 

Due to the length of time sitting and the climate in that part of the country, all systems and interior bits need a good deal of work.  Everything needs to be at least "freshened"-- this is a big project.

[66FBCharger]

Did you tell the owner you pass?
You said the owner was looking for 5 figures. Is that $10000 or more?

[foobar]

Ultimately, the price is between you and the seller, but yes, I would suggest higher than 10.  You would need to go that high to top my offer.   

Originally, I wanted to purchase and restore the car, so I read and posted here.  Because I am family, I was given first shot at it.  I don't want to pay what they want because I am not in the trade and I do not have trusted shops to take on this level of work-- this was in rougher shape than I thought it would be.  Financially, it would not work out.  Quality-wise, the results would not be what I would want for a car like this.

Again, because they are family, I am helping them out by posting it here.  The rest of the story is up above...

[Ghoste]

Have I asked you about putting it in the 69 Registry yet?

[foobar]

Have I asked you about putting it in the 69 Registry yet?

I did.  There is no 69 registry...

[Ghoste]

There is.

[foobar]

I PM'ed you about this...  Anyway, it is not my car to post.

[Ghoste]

Ok good, I kind of thought so but I get a lot pm's for it so you have to forgive me a bit.

[foobar]

More photos...

[foobar]

More photos

[foobar]

more photos... I spent 6 hrs looking this car over...

[foobar]

More

[foobar]

Last for now...

[foobar]

Ok kids... There's a pretty honest look at what I have been looking at.  For what its worth, the trunk, floor pan, roof, sails/butresses and frame are all solid.  Despite the shape (!) of the body panels, I did not see any frame or suspension damage.  The tires still hold air(!).