Aluminium vs SS rockers... BECOMING ON ROCKERS ASSEMBLY DIAGNOSSIS, with pics!

[Nacho-RT74]

Can you explain me what could be the advantage of aluminium vs SS adjustable rockers?

http://www.prwonlinestore.com/pqseriesaluminumshaftmountrockerarmsystem-3344011.aspx

http://www.prwonlinestore.com/pqmoparshaftrockersystemstainlesssteel383-440-3244012.aspx

[c00nhunterjoe]

Aluminum is lighter, reducing moving mass. The hardened steel is stronger in the end. Your need depends on your build.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok... that's something expected, but, is REALLY NOTICEABLE on a mild build ?

[BSB67]

ok... that's something expected, but, is REALLY NOTICEABLE on a mild build ?

nothing, as long as you are not buying junk.

[c00nhunterjoe]

ok... that's something expected, but, is REALLY NOTICEABLE on a mild build ?

nothing, as long as you are not buying junk.

Ie-  proform

[moparsr2fast]

  I think the comp stainless are actually lighter on the nose the the aluminum. Something in the design. The stainless should last longer then aluminum also.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok... that's something expected, but, is REALLY NOTICEABLE on a mild build ?

nothing, as long as you are not buying junk.

Ie-  proform

LOL!!!

and what about PRW ?

they seem to be same manufacturer maybe ?, but also the Comp SS pieces looks to be also the same LOL!

I got some PRW rockers brass bushings damaged. The ones in front of engine ( cilinders 1 and 2, not sure if also 3 and 4 ), so I got 8 replacement rockers ( 4 lefts and 4 rights ) prepairing to replace half of set. It seem some oiling problem allong the shaft ? Dunno but pushrods in front of engine are dark with burnt oil sticked to them. I'll replace the rockers for the new ones, but thinking on get the damaged one to a machine shop and replace bushings and still get them as spares. Rockers itself are not damaged really but just the bushing.

I noticed how the brass coming from bushings got sticked to the rocker shaft. Really haven't had the chance to deeply check the shaft itself if it got damaged too, or just remove the sticked brass and polish the surface will be enough. My car is maybe thousands miles from home so I can't check it personally on this moment.

So JUST IN CASE will be getting new shafts... mostly sure these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300366671963?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

HOWEVER just noticed how a seller is selling PRW Aluminium rocker assemblies in half of the price of PRW website:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161317771674?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

so, I was thinking maybe for the price get this set, and just use the shafts from the kit if I really need them and get storaged these rockers just in case on a future. Or maybe a full replacement... But if I don't need the shaft because mines come out nicelly polished, sell this full kit locally. ( ppl locally gets nut when talking about Performance parts for Mopars because they are unavailable here )


$120 for just the shafts, or pay double for a full aluminium set which by the way includes pushrods checkers which is nice!!! ( retail price double of that ). Dunno.

Actually I like better the look of the SS ones on an engine, so I'd like to keep them




Pics of when I assemblied my engine

[moparsr2fast]

 Nacho, make sure the oil holes in the rocker shafts are located towards the exhaust side of the head.

[justcruisin]

I run the same PRW stainless rockers, I have had no problems with them, I have only lifted them once for inspection and I did find some brass transfer onto the shaft. It was more of a light coloring in places and I was not concerned. From your picture it seems the adjusters are a long way into the arm, they oil the push rod through a hole in the arm which needs to line up with a hole in the adjuster. Obviously there is room for adjustment but I,m not sure how much.

[Nacho-RT74]

pics were taken just preassembling, not adjusted.

about bushing... mines got really sized...

[BSB67]

ok... that's something expected, but, is REALLY NOTICEABLE on a mild build ?

nothing, as long as you are not buying junk.

Ie-  proform

LOL!!!

and what about PRW ?

they seem to be same manufacturer maybe ?, but also the Comp SS pieces looks to be also the same LOL!

I got some PRW rockers brass bushings damaged. The ones in front of engine ( cilinders 1 and 2, not sure if also 3 and 4 ), so I got 8 replacement rockers ( 4 lefts and 4 rights ) prepairing to replace half of set. It seem some oiling problem allong the shaft ? Dunno but pushrods in front of engine are dark with burnt oil sticked to them. I'll replace the rockers for the new ones, but thinking on get the damaged one to a machine shop and replace bushings and still get them as spares. Rockers itself are not damaged really but just the bushing.

I noticed how the brass coming from bushings got sticked to the rocker shaft. Really haven't had the chance to deeply check the shaft itself if it got damaged too, or just remove the sticked brass and polish the surface will be enough. My car is maybe thousands miles from home so I can't check it personally on this moment.

So JUST IN CASE will be getting new shafts... mostly sure these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300366671963?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

HOWEVER just noticed how a seller is selling PRW Aluminium rocker assemblies in half of the price of PRW website:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161317771674?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

so, I was thinking maybe for the price get this set, and just use the shafts from the kit if I really need them and get storaged these rockers just in case on a future. Or maybe a full replacement... But if I don't need the shaft because mines come out nicelly polished, sell this full kit locally. ( ppl locally gets nut when talking about Performance parts for Mopars because they are unavailable here )


$120 for just the shafts, or pay double for a full aluminium set which by the way includes pushrods checkers which is nice!!! ( retail price double of that ). Dunno.

Actually I like better the look of the SS ones on an engine, so I'd like to keep them

Wow.  Not sure where to begin.  

1) Maybe find out what caused the failure (hint, likely not the shaft)
2) It could be the quality of the parts,  so until you figure out #1, stop plowing good money after bad into your rocker system


If it is the quality of parts, it looks like this is another example of how cheap parts cost more.  

Think about this.  There are cars that can pull the front wheels off the ground and run an 11 second quarter mile using the factory stamped rocker system.  Here you are with a mild, near stock build, buying or getting replacement parts, and contemplating repairing some of the damaged parts for spares.  

[Nacho-RT74]

not sayiong the shafts are the culprit, but, looking forward in case they got damaged once I remove the brass and polish.

Pretty sure I'm getting some lack of oil.

oil holes... Really can't recall where are they toward... will check for that too.

[BSB67]

not sayiong the shafts are the culprit, but, looking forward in case they got damaged once I remove the brass and polish.

Pretty sure I'm getting some lack of oil.

oil holes... Really can't recall where are they toward... will check for that too.

Think of it this way,  There are 4 different ways you can mount the rocket shafts, but only one way is correct.

Hit the shafts with some emery cloth then take a mic to them.  Over tightening the end hold downs can make them go out of round, overheat and burn stuff up.   However, I would not think this would effect the pushrods.    Post pictures of the damaged stuff and maybe you'll get the mystery solved.

[Nacho-RT74]

yes 4 ways, but I'm sure oiling holes are pointing down, what I'm not sure is if they are toward the exhaust or the camshaft...

Two of the ways ( with oiling holes on top ) to mount them would block the oil passage from engine due the smaller bolt hole what must be on top.

as I told, the car is hundred miles from home LOL... will try to be there next week.

[heyoldguy]

Ahh, here we go again. The PRW rockers will work fine, if, if, if, if, IF, you prep them first as you should any aftermarket rocker assembly or any other part for that mattter.

The PRW system should be totally disassembled and cleaned of metal chips, burrs and proud metal. Sometimes during manufacturing the brass bushings even get smeared along side the lifter body where they rub against the shims or hold downs and break off in small clumps. Sometimes you have to tap the rocker bodies or chase the threads of the adjusters to clean burrs off them. I have found metal chips inside the adjuster screws, shafts and rockers.

Then you must make sure the adjusting screw cups go all the way up into the lifter body. The cup of the adjusting screw should go up inside the rocker body, if it doesn't, get a replacement rocker. The reason being, when you measure for your pushrods the screw should be turned out one thread only and this aligns the oil hole in the rocker with the oil band in the adjuster screw. Back the adjusting screw into the lifter body until it stops and turn it out one turn. There should be no threads showing at one turn out, then you measure for the pushrods. If you have two threads showing you have blocked off most of the oil to the pushrod. Result? Burnt pushrods and adjusting screws. As stated before, don't overtighten the hold down studs or bolts, you will oval the shafts and seize the rockers.

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok! I'm with my car and here this is what I found

Shafts correctly indexed with oiling holes toward exhaust

Lot of burnt oil ( charcoal ) on front cilinders ( 1 and 2 ) rockers and shaft ( also pushrods )

Pics are becoming from right side rockers assembly

1st pic... Note the large gap between rocker and shaft... Of course, lot of play there.



2nd pic... Worn bushing ( same rocker )


3rd pic... Note shaft marks on cilinder 2 rockers

[Nacho-RT74]

Two cleaning steps on shaft... First with a fine metallic sponge, then with a worn 1200 grit sandpaper...

Two first rockers area


Full rocker view



Same after the sandpaper

[Nacho-RT74]

Need to say, I can feel with my fingers all those areas on shaft, like worn areas ( rockers got seats on shaft)... Need to check with detail every rocker yet.


Dunno what to think about this.

Left side is more less the same but not so deep.

[Nacho-RT74]

Forgot to say! When my engine got recently assemblied, I had full oil pressure in gauge  ( Milodon HP oil pump ) still with engine hot, but after some months, began to get half if scale in gauge.

Maybe a year ago, I began a thread about this, and somebody told me I could get an oil pressure fail on top of engine due  the 4th camshaft bearing spun... But wondering if oil sender gets the oil sensing from same source or oil channels than heads/rockers.

HOWEVER still half scale on gauge should be good enough for engine oiling... Shouldn't ?

[justcruisin]

Only the heads are oil feed from the #4 cam bearing.  Looking at the discoloring of the rockers it seems to be an oil problem. With the shafts off crank the engine over to see if the heads are oiling - could be a spun bearing. How much clearance did you have between the rockers?

[Nacho-RT74]

Actually didn't check the clearence just checked they moved freely once mounted

[fy469rtse]

Nacho, the oil pressure drop is a worry, half is really something to be concerned about, sorry I missed that thread, can you post photos of lifters and bottoms , time to pull intake and inspect the cam lobes that you can see,
Worried for you on the effects oil starvation has had on the cam itself,
That burnt oil on the shafts tells me everything was getting very hot top end, that would explain the wear and gauling of shafts,
If evidence of wear , very sorry but you will need to pull camshaft and inspect bearings,
My self I would also drain oil , run a magnet through it and see what sort of debris you pull out of oil , I would cut filter open as well to see what it's picked up, post photos
Those racket shafts show the effects of heat, did engine run hotter than normal as well ?

[fy469rtse]

Sorry ment to add , don't reuse those shafts, get new , I always lean towards banana groove oil shafts , wider area oiled under the bushes to rockers
Also recommend billet hold downs to shafts , post photos and update let the experienced engine guys on here see all , they may pick up on something they see ,

[Nacho-RT74]

Yes I was comcerned about shafts, since I can feel the depresions where rockers were running. Not excesivelly deep, but they are there


Engine was to be removed and dissasembled anyway to square block deck ( was badly decked at machine shop ) so! Everything will be checked from the ground.

Engine never got hot... Maybe just 1/3 to 1/2 of the gauge scale as max reading. I can' recall exactly since the car was parked a year ago to make a deep body job ( is on that right now )

Engine just got running one year and a half after built the stroker with 440 crank. Then parked.

Even it seems obvious I was getting a oil failure, why he gauge never got really a bad oil pressure reading! True was way lower than the begining, but never less than half of the gauge!

Once again I ask... Does the oil sender gets the pressure from diff source than the oil arriving To the heads?


One note more... I was getting lifter noise when starting up the engine, for the first 3 or so seconds.

[Nacho-RT74]

Aaand, another question more related with initial post

How needle bearing rockers ( aluminium pieces posted are with bearings, already asked about ) keep the oil? Do they have seals on sides .

[Nacho-RT74]

Damn! Aluminium pieces are ball kind adjusters! My pushrods are ball kind, smithbross brand, not cup.

I think will get new shafts and rebuild locally the rockers with new bushings at some machine shop!

And of course search for the oiling problem.

[Nacho-RT74]

Searching for a good rocker shaft set ( thinking on rebuild the rockers ) got into the hughes engines website and found this set with slotted grooves, which seems to be a great oiling improvement to the rockers...right? What do you think?

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=browse&level0=RC0gQmlnIEJsb2NrIChMb3cgRGVjayk=&level1=Um9ja2VyIEFybXMgJiBBY2Nlc3Nvcmllcw==&level2=U2hhZnRz&partid=10393


Should all rocker shafts be the same diameter, right?

Then websurfing on website found this Interesting article

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/6stainlesssteelironrockerarmsthiscanbeagauldingexp.php

PLASTIC BUSHING? Sounds really interesting... What do you know and think about? I could modify my rockers with plastic bushings! Or teflon, or some similar material able to hold pressure and temperature, and keep safer the shafts for a future... Sugestions?

[fy469rtse]

Nacho, yes that's them , banana groove there referred to , thick wall shafts, look at getting there billet hold downs as well ,
Have a look at there rockers as well, have had a lot of success with Hughes products,
Good investment and improvement on the originals
Let us know what you find on inspection ?

[moparsr2fast]

  Nacho, you will want to stay away from the PRW fully rollerized rockers. Hughes makes very good parts.

  The oil pressure that you read from the back of the engine is going to be the same as the pressure feeding the heads. Both of those are branched from the same source.

[Nacho-RT74]

Yes, I discarded the Aluminium pieces, not for the brand or due they are rolllerized or whatever, just because they are ball adjusters.

After read the Hughes article about the rockers and shaft relationship, I can't stop thinking on rebuilt the ones I have with "plastic" bushings... But what kind of "plastic"? Teflon maybe?

Ok, so, even as mentioned a change like that on oil pressure reading is not good, still half of scale on gauge should be still enough!!!

[justcruisin]

I have been running the same PRW rockers for 2 1/2 years with zero problems, slightly more aggressive cam to what you are using. There must be some issue causing your problem, I don't think the fault lies with the rockers. Just saying - wouldn't want to see you buy new gear and have the same issue.

[Nacho-RT74]

Engine will be dissasembled and checked. I have more rockers pics to post, but will do from home better.

Forgott to say, valve springs are Hughes too. Can't recall the number. I got them barelly used and checking for pressure of one of them gave me around 120 lbs at seat height I think.

My car is/was a driver and travelled around the country with it.

[Nacho-RT74]

at the end of 2012 I noticed how some bushings began to get lot of play, so I got 8 spares ( 4 lefts and 4 rights ). I got them in $25 or so. Contacted PRW for a same items quote... $49 each ( althought they made me a better offer later but still way more than the price I paid last time )

so, more decided to rebuild bushings.

Still thinking on Plastic per what hughes website says ( maybe teflon? ) but wondering when we talk about bronze bushing for this, I need to take care about somekind of bronce alloy, or simply basic and plain bronze ?

[deepockets]

Just for the sake of curiosity, why does it matter what side the hole on the rocker shaft is as long as it's going down? My simple mind sees that it's inside a grooved area of the rocker arm and should be ok either side of the bottom?

[moparsr2fast]

 Nacho, there is a bronze material called oilite. It is,  to an extent, self lubricating. I would make  the bushings from that material.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, wondering if that could be available down here ( which I think, it won't )

[Nacho-RT74]

well, for a while I'm working on get rebuilt these rockers, decided to get a back up plan, and found a good price for a new full set:

http://prwindustriesinc.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/134368/3244011

aprox same price than get just the rockers straight from PRW ppl

so, what will I do?

If I get rebuilt my own set, theorically with a better bronze alloy as a friend of mine machinist promised, will keep my set and sell locally this new set. Since they are unavailable around here, I don't think will be REAAALLY hard to sell, althought will take time.

If I don't get my set rebuilt for WHATEVER REASON, I already got a guy locally interested on buy my bushing damaged set ( he has his own machine tooling ), and I think can get at least half of the retail price for the set ( quoted in around $500 on PRW website ) or maybe half of the ebay stores price. Doesn't seem a bad deal.


And still have to deal with the oiling problem

[fy469rtse]

What did you find with the ol pressure drop, ?
Was it the number 4 camshaft bearing ,
I would keep looking at the Hughes stuff , available , proven unless someone can give you feed back on this set , actually used these and results, the week point on your old set regardless of what rockers you go with was the shafts,
Do use those thick wall bannana shafts and billet hold downs , good insurance

[Nacho-RT74]

it take a while before dissasembly the engine. my car is hundred miles from home and getting a DEEP body job.

hughes shafts are on the way.

[fy469rtse]

Good stuff , I've seen rockers wear out prematurely because of the stock hold downs deformed shafts , ? Could be what did yours in ,

[Nacho-RT74]

I don't think that's the case, even I had them tight with PRW hold downs clamps, actually the replacement rockers I had go throught the shaft from end to end without any problem.

Bud, I found REALLY HARD TO DEFORM these shafts... I can't imagine how much torque is required to make it!!!