Pinging at higher rpms

[ottawamerc]

Wilco. I also ordered a timing tape for my vibration dampener today to check that. How do I make one of those piston stops?

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Wilco. I also ordered a timing tape for my vibration dampener today to check that. How do I make one of those piston stops?

Scott

Piston stop is easy to make :

Gut an old sparkplug and install a bolt into it. About 1in long should do it. You want the piston to contact the "stop" to get the readings you're looking for 

-Install the piston stop in #1
-Rotate the engine clockwise until it hits the piston stop and make a mark on your balancer using the zero on your timing cover scale
-Rotate the engine in the opposite direction (counterclockwise) until it makes contact with the piston stop and make a second mark using the same reference point

results : the midpoint between these two marks is TDC on this balancer. If the outer ring has not shifted the 1/2 way point between the two marks will be lined up perfectly with your existing timing mark.

Is this a new balancer or an old OEM piece that was cleaned up and installed on your rebuilt engine ? 


Ron

[ottawamerc]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

[firefighter3931]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

Ya, the cruise looks fine....but the outboards need work 

OEM balancer needs to be checked for indexing 


Ron

[ottawamerc]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

Ya, the cruise looks fine....but the outboards need work  

OEM balancer needs to be checked for indexing  

Ron

Today's events: I ordered some #86 jets for the outer carbs, and built 4 piston stops. You ask "why,, why would I build 4 piston stops?"  Well as it turns out that a menial task like building little tools is almost impossible after a 24Hr shift  But after all was said and done I found the dampener had moved just over 1/2" My actual base timing was 25* and my all in was like 46* I think and not being a guru or anything but I think that is definitely what was causing my pinging I set the timing to the proper 18* base and went for a test blast and good news is the PING's gone I need to get heavier springs in my outers now as there is a delay on WOT then a kick in the pants.

Thanks Ron for your guidance and all others whom chirped in on this, I and Hyperutetic (whatever) pistons thank you!

Scott

[b5blue]

Scott I'd look into replacing that balancer pronto!  The one on my Cherokee went south so fast I had to get a shop to change it. (I had no time to wait till the weekend.) Congrats on getting rid of the dreaded PING!!! 

[firefighter3931]

Today's events: I ordered some #86 jets for the outer carbs, and built 4 piston stops. You ask "why,, why would I build 4 piston stops?"  Well as it turns out that a menial task like building little tools is almost impossible after a 24Hr shift   But after all was said and done I found the dampener had moved just over 1/2" My actual base timing was 25* and my all in was like 46* I think and not being a guru or anything but I think that is definitely what was causing my pinging I set the timing to the proper 18* base and went for a test blast and good news is the PING's gone I need to get heavier springs in my outers now as there is a delay on WOT then a kick in the pants.

Thanks Ron for your guidance and all others whom chirped in on this, I and Hyperutetic (whatever) pistons thank you!

Scott

Well....that sounds much better 

I had a strong suspiscion that the balancer was fubarred. There's no way that it shouldn't have run fine on Premium pump fuel....it had to be timing related because the AFR's are not that far off. 

Now it's time to get a new dampner and dial in the outboard carbs 

Good work Scott 


Ron

[b5blue]

The Firecore RTR has my 346 iron head, 9.5 to one running 89 oct. nicely! (Thanks Ron!) My math says I just might get to my goal of 87 oct. 

[ottawamerc]

Whats your recommendation on a dampener? I was going to pull mine and install the timing tape but I may just slide a new one in if I go that far? I should be getting my spring kit from NAPA today to set the secondaries, the bog and subsequent massive leaning out seems to be the light springs (yellow) in there. With the new timing setting I'm getting 13 A/F at cruise and then the huge spike lean at WOT then it settles back to 13.4 A/F. If I slow up the secondaries coming in do I still need to richen up those carbs?

Scott

[b5blue]

I'd try the springs first. Have you Quick Fuel metering plates for the outboards? 

[70sixpkrt]

This is a great post. After you get it all squared away, summarize everything you did.

[firefighter3931]

I'd try the springs first. Have you Quick Fuel metering plates for the outboards? 

One change at a time and see what difference it makes. Keep notes and log the results. 

You don't need to get too fancy with the balancer but something that is indexed would be nice :

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pfs-80013/overview/make/chrysler



Ron

[ottawamerc]

Thanks for the rec. Ron   now that I know the dampner has moved would that have a corresponding vibration? are they balanced? not sure if I'm asking this the right way

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the rec. Ron   now that I know the dampner has moved would that have a corresponding vibration? are they balanced? not sure if I'm asking this the right way

Scott

Hi Scott,

To answer your question ; yes it can cause a vibration when the outer ring slips because the dampner is balanced (harmonic balancer) 

Read the instructions on the PP balancer closely because that balancer is designed for use with both internal as well as external balance engine builds. There are detatchable weights that will have to be removed when using it with an internally balanced engine. 


Ron

[PackingSix]

Well first of all Happy New Year, and I will apologize in advance for resurrecting such an old post , however I am new to this forum, and wanted the previous information to be able to be referenced, and to keep things congruent.

I purchased this car from the previous owner, and this issue still seems to be prevalent, however I have some new details to share to see if I can resolve it once, and for all, and hopefully help some others at the same time.

So the "pining" is more like a rattle that is noticeable around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm under hard acceleration. At idle there is a slight valve train tick on cylinder on #1,#6, and #8. I figured it might be slight valve lash so I took the valve covers off to check it, and adjust them, however the builder left the stock non adjustable rocker arms on, and didn't put adjustable ones on. So I'm wondering if the ticking is because of the valve lash that I found on #1 exhaust, #6 exhaust, and #8 exhaust valve. I also am wondering what the stock push rod length is, because even though there is E Street heads put on the engine which spec 3/8" push rods, the builder used Comp Cams 7412's which are 5/16" and 9.295" long. So now I am trying to prep to do some engine work in the Spring when I bring her out of storage. I'm wondering if those push rods got bent, or, are the push rods short, and because of the non adjustable stock rocker arms there is not enough preload on the lifters causing the lash, thus creating the rattling in that RPM range as the rocker arms beat the crap out of the push pods?

I hope someone can help me verify if I'm on the right track.

Thank you in advance.             

[bee1971]

I would bee interested in what E Street Heads where used , 75cc or 84cc for compression reference
Are the spark plugs angled or straight ?

Also what camshaft ? A lot of these fast rate camshafts , especially the Comp Cams XE series are for the most part noisy - Like mentioned a rattle sound at certain RPMs

Nothing wrong with 5/16" push rods and non adjustable rockers with the E Street Heads - But again not knowing the Camshaft Specs


I would for piece of mind , pull the rocker arm shafts off , inspect all your push rods , and especially the individual rocker arm cups where the push rods ride
Are these aftermarket pieces ? Or factory original pieces - There is a lot of aftermarket junk stamped rocker arms being sold - Very thin

And then of course make sure the rocker arm shafts have the oil holes pointed down and angled towards the exhaust side of heads - Oil holes up will cause all kinds of clatter

And then if it is PINGING at that RPM range , try heavier springs in the distributor to slow down the advance just to confirm to see if it goes away

[bee1971]

OK - Read slowly LOL

Post 17


He said angled plugs - That means 75cc E Street Heads

84cc E Street Heads are straight plugs

He might have been guessing at the 10.1 Compression with those 75cc E Street Heads - Now you have to look at how far the pistons are down in the hole , what head gaskets where used - Again Camshaft Specs

Big difference between valve train noise rattle or clatter and compression pinging under load or a combination of both

[c00nhunterjoe]

Definitely need to determine if its a mechanical rattle or a ping. Old owner said ping and it was resolved after it was discovered that the balancer had spun and timing adjusted accordingly. Was the balancer ever replaced? If so where is the timing now assuming its a ping.
   Regarding noisey valvetrain on only certain cylinders. Since it has stamped steel rockers you will need to pull the intake and check lifter preload to see if the right pushrods are in it. If so and the preload is correct on all of them its probably junk lifters. If only those cylinders are loose and the others have preload- possible wiping cam.
Lots of things to check with little information on the build from the previous owner unfortunately

[PackingSix]

Hey thanks bee1971, and c00nhunterjoe foe the responses!

So as for your questions bee1971 when I pulled the plugs last year they were was no noticeable angle of the plugs going into the head, just nominal clearance with the headers. The cam shaft is a Comp Cam 270H-10 Duration 270 int/ext, duration at .50 inch 224 int/ext, int/ext lift .470 at factory .50 ratio, and 110 deg separation.

cc00nhunterjoe the harmonic balancer I don't believe was replaced, because it is Mopar orange, and no timing tape on it that the previous owner said he purchased, and 4 marks on it that my son, and I had to decipher which was actually TDC.

My son, and I advanced the timing to 19* base, and 38* total all in by 2,500 rpm when we first heard it, and thought it was pinging. We then retarded it to 18*, and 36* and the sound was still there always at 2,500, to 3,000. I have a couple of video's I will see if I can attach, of maybe send in a message to the both of you to go over.

It definitely is a metallic rattling sound, that I think the previous owner mistook for pre detonation, as we initially did as well.

I have been going over the build invoices to try, and determine exactly what was done, however the heads were not on the invoice from the builder. I will see if the picture attaches or not.

Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it, and hopefully get this resolved.     

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would replace the balancer 1st as the marks will not be right per the discovery of it being spun. Start there. Although if the engine is sitting on the floor, may be worth a teardown

[PackingSix]

The balancer my have been replace, just not with an aftermarket like suggested. The reason I say that is when we were trying to decipher the marks we verified the marks on the balancer when we had the valve covers off that way we could verify that #1 was at TDC, and it lined up with the groove on the balancer at the 0 on the timing marker. This is why I am so perplexed. The engine is in the car, the picture above was one the previous owner took when the engine was being built. I put it in for reference of the rocker arms. unfortunately the video is to large to upload.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Upload it to youtube

[PackingSix]

Ok let's see if these links to the two videos work.


https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRh16ZHihbzz47zGNiDBQQI7IFIfw8cw?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRh16ZHihbzz47zGNiDBQQI7IFIfw8cw?usp=sharing

[c00nhunterjoe]

That sounds like severe pinging

[ACUDANUT]

I am half deaf (really) Sounds good to me.