Pinging at higher rpms

[ottawamerc]

Hi guys my 440 6 pack has got a ping at higher rpms and loads. It's a fresh motor 3000 Mi on it last year. It is a 72 truck block bored 0.60, Eddy E-Street heads sorry I'm not sure of the cam but its alittle loppy at idle. It has a MSD RTR distributor. I think the engine builder said it was a 10:1 comp build but I'm not really impressed with his work on my engine (funny ticking) and vibration from it that he is not really interested in fixing Oh well what would a guy expect for a $6000 investment really! I ran it through some checks today and here's what I found if you guys could comment on them.

Idle 950 RPM
Vac 16.5"HG
Base timing is 18*
timing starts to advance at 1250 RPM
1500 RPM its 25*
1750 RPM 27*
2000 RPM 33*
2250 RPM 35*
2500 RPM 36*  All in

its has a 195 thermostat and runs cool at hiway and city. It runs on 91-93 octane (all I can get here)

So what do you think?

Thanks
Scott

[Back N Black]

Do you have the Vacuum advance connected? if so, try without the advance.

[ottawamerc]

Oh yeah forgot to mention that, I do have the vacuum advance disconnected.

Scott

[tan top]

 could try backing the timing down to  all in 34 * then see if that makes any difference     have you checked plug color ?

[cudaken]

While 195 degrees is fine, my self I like 160 so you might try that. I would all so back off the total advances as Tan Top suggested.

Have you checked your Air Fuel ratio? Most cars run to rich, but you never know. 

Cuda Ken

[BSB67]

While 195 degrees is fine, my self I like 160 so you might try that. I would all so back off the total advances as Tan Top suggested.

Have you checked your Air Fuel ratio? Most cars run to rich, but you never know. 

Cuda Ken

And try cooler plugs.  What is you cranking cylinder pressure?

[ottawamerc]

I'm getting around 170 PSI cranking.

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Scott,

The 170psi is fine with pump gas and aluminum heads. Timing curve looks ideal as well 

My old 446 used a 160* high flow Milidon thermostat and the temps would allways settle at 175-180 once it warmed up. I don't like them to run hotter than 180.

That engine combo (yours) should be using an NGK "6" series plug. I used the BCPR-6ES in mine gapped at .040 and it ran great. 



Ron

[ottawamerc]

I dont remember what plugs I have in there other than they are short header plugs. So you think the 195* is too hot? Bloody internet provided the wrong info I thought that never happened I had read that the 6 packs needed the 195* to run right. I will try the 160*

Scott

[myk]

I thought most engines including ours had a normal operating temperature of at least 190. My 440 does 160 at freeway speeds then does 180-200 in city; depending on weather and traffic conditions...

[Cooter]

Imo, 160 is too cold to get a proper burn in a good running engine. 180-190 is optimum, but pre-ignition can force 160 T-stats.

[ottawamerc]

Ok "update" today I noticed that the pinging starts just before the outer carbs start to open. I pushed it a little further into the ping to see if it would dissipate but it didn't and I didn't go much more than a second and a half beyond the start of the ping. I guess I need to put a A/F meter in to tell for sure But for now I think its leaning out just before the secondaries  come in to play.

Scott

[b5blue]

Lighter springs will open outboards sooner and a #65 jet in center carb may help. My Six pack loves vac. advance, I'm set at 12* initial with vac unhooked and capped. Vac. advance adds about 10* and I run it off full manifold vacuum.
I'm running a Firecore RTR dizzy with one heavy and one stock spring with mech. advance limited @ 16*. I just tested with 91 octane and have no ping. How high are you where your at? Where are your outboards idle mix screws set at?
Here is a link to some generally good tuning tips:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=5995396&Searchpage=1&Main=5995174&Words=+Warrant_Officer&topic=&Search=true

[ottawamerc]

Ok so today amazingly it's not raining and I tried out the O2 sensor. At idle its kinda all over the place 13.8-15 so I figure that 14.5 is the median At cruise its 12.0 and vac is 20"HG at WOT its 13.2 but pinging bad The A/F seems ok? no? So I guess I should pull a bit of advance out?
Also my idle adjustment needles seem to be out alot (not confirmed) but like 3 turns?
I took a couple of pics but my Iphone cam sucks and they didn't turn out.

Setup at idle
http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/ottawamerc/media/IMG_1160_zps76fddeac.mp4.html
AEM wide band O2 sensor installed



Scott

[firefighter3931]

At 13.2 AFR wide open it should not be detonating with 10:1 and aluminum heads. 

How hot is the engine running ? What plugs ? Compression test numbers ? Total advance and where it comes in ?

The idle vacuum seems really good...


Ron

[ottawamerc]

I know eh Ron?

All the details are at the top of this thread. Its not running hot either?

The plugs are Accel 416S

Scott

[b5blue]

I'd bench check the carbs.
I set my outboards AFTER replacing the needles and tiny cork "O" rings that seal them so the tip of the needle just peeks out the hole, about 3/4 of 1 turn. Checked float height by holding the bowl upside down and adjusting the new Viton tipped fuel valve so it hung level inside the bowl.
My center had a clogged accelerator pump from sitting too much and crap in the bottom of the bowl that only Lacquer thinner would cut for clean up. Are you getting a good shot from the accelerator pump? 
I installed a Firecore RTR dizzy from Ron and set mech. advance limited to 16* using one heavy and one standard spring to restrict the curve at the transition where you have ping. I'm running bone stock 346 iron heads and 9.5 to one Speed Pro pistons and have no more ping even running mid grade (91 oct.)
With Aluminum heads you should not be having issues @ 10 to 1 unless your way way advanced in timing. (?)

[ottawamerc]

Today while I was pulling the plugs I found that the boots on cyl #1 & 3 where burnt and badly cracked. I suspected this would happen even though I had put protection sleeves on them cause # 1 header tube touched them due to the angled plugs. So now I'm heating and massaging my  header tube but its not easy

Here's a plug from #3 cylinder with over 3000 miles on it, sorry for the bad pic again.



Scott

[firefighter3931]

I know eh Ron?

All the details are at the top of this thread. Its not running hot either?

The plugs are Accel 416S

Scott

Dang, I should have re-read the thread....the info is all there. 

Ok the numbers all seem to line up fine....170 psi cranking is well within the limits of pump gas. I'm starting to wonder if your timing is off. When the engine was rebuilt did the shop check the indexing on your harmonic balancer ? Is it a factory balancer ? The reason i mention this is because often the outer ring will slip on the hub due to deteriation of the elastomer ring and when that happens your timing adjustments will be off.....depending on the amount of slippage it can be quite a bit. 

Do you have an infrared heat gun ? I'd be interested to see what the cyl head surface temps are reading. 


Ron


Ps. It was just a matter of time before the plug boots split being so close to the header tubes. The Hookers can be clearanced with a lot of heat and a 

[ottawamerc]

Ok So I installed the new plugs under Ron's guidance and WOW big difference across the board! The A/F rich`d up and I was able to take a 1/2 turn leaner on the idle needles, a annoying ticking coming from cylinder 4 or 6 is GONE! I test drove it tonight and at idle I have 13.7- 14.2, cruise is 12.7-13 and WOT is 13.3. I checked the engine temp and its 178*F at the cylinder head and the top of the rad and 143 at the base of the rad. I can't get a good reading from each exhaust cause of the ceramic headers. The engine idles smooth (more than I wanted, I was hoping for some rumble ) There is still some ping at high RPM under load but it`s no where near where it was! A straight line blast from a dead stop was well exhilarating to say the least

Thanks Ron

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Good Data  The engine temps look great....no problem there ! 

From what i can see, the cruise looks a little rich and the WOT is a bit lean. To lean out the cruise AFR you'll need to pull some jet out of the center carb. To richen up the WOT AFR you'll need to add some jet to the outboards. 

You're getting closer and by the time it's properly dialed in there should be no detonation. 



Ron

[ottawamerc]

Hey

So today when I got home from work I pulled my 3 carbs and found my center carb had 68 jets so I dropped them to 65's that I had on hand and my outboard carbs had 82 and I bumped them to 84's. I cleaned reassembled and set my out board needles at 1/2+ on each bore, I reset my center carb to 1 1/2 turn then set the float levels. Now I have 13.7 A/F at idle and this short video for the balance What do ya think? Still some singing coming at the same RPM's and load guessing maybe like Ron said possible bad vibration damper( indicator off)?

Scott

http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/ottawamerc/media/IMG_1185_zps4fb5c3cc.mp4.html

[b5blue]

Boy you are getting close! 

[firefighter3931]

It's looking better Scott 

The AFR's are still lean at WOT so i would throw some more jet in the outboard carbs and retest. If you can get it to high 12's it should work just fine. Try running Shell 91 which is pure gas (ethanol free) The ethanol does affect AFR's somewhat in that the jetting needs to be richer to accomodate that fuel. All i use now is the V-power 91 

Here's what i would do ; go out for a nice long cruise and burn off whatever fuel you have in there and fill up with the 91....then re-check the AFR's.....then re-adjust as necessary. 


Ron

[ACUDANUT]

How can you even hear a ping at those rpm's ? Then again, I can't hear shit anyway.

[ottawamerc]

Wilco. I also ordered a timing tape for my vibration dampener today to check that. How do I make one of those piston stops?

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Wilco. I also ordered a timing tape for my vibration dampener today to check that. How do I make one of those piston stops?

Scott

Piston stop is easy to make :

Gut an old sparkplug and install a bolt into it. About 1in long should do it. You want the piston to contact the "stop" to get the readings you're looking for 

-Install the piston stop in #1
-Rotate the engine clockwise until it hits the piston stop and make a mark on your balancer using the zero on your timing cover scale
-Rotate the engine in the opposite direction (counterclockwise) until it makes contact with the piston stop and make a second mark using the same reference point

results : the midpoint between these two marks is TDC on this balancer. If the outer ring has not shifted the 1/2 way point between the two marks will be lined up perfectly with your existing timing mark.

Is this a new balancer or an old OEM piece that was cleaned up and installed on your rebuilt engine ? 


Ron

[ottawamerc]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

[firefighter3931]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

Ya, the cruise looks fine....but the outboards need work 

OEM balancer needs to be checked for indexing 


Ron

[ottawamerc]

It's an OEm piece. So do you think the cruise is ok now and I just need to play with the outers?

Scott

Ya, the cruise looks fine....but the outboards need work  

OEM balancer needs to be checked for indexing  

Ron

Today's events: I ordered some #86 jets for the outer carbs, and built 4 piston stops. You ask "why,, why would I build 4 piston stops?"  Well as it turns out that a menial task like building little tools is almost impossible after a 24Hr shift  But after all was said and done I found the dampener had moved just over 1/2" My actual base timing was 25* and my all in was like 46* I think and not being a guru or anything but I think that is definitely what was causing my pinging I set the timing to the proper 18* base and went for a test blast and good news is the PING's gone I need to get heavier springs in my outers now as there is a delay on WOT then a kick in the pants.

Thanks Ron for your guidance and all others whom chirped in on this, I and Hyperutetic (whatever) pistons thank you!

Scott

[b5blue]

Scott I'd look into replacing that balancer pronto!  The one on my Cherokee went south so fast I had to get a shop to change it. (I had no time to wait till the weekend.) Congrats on getting rid of the dreaded PING!!! 

[firefighter3931]

Today's events: I ordered some #86 jets for the outer carbs, and built 4 piston stops. You ask "why,, why would I build 4 piston stops?"  Well as it turns out that a menial task like building little tools is almost impossible after a 24Hr shift   But after all was said and done I found the dampener had moved just over 1/2" My actual base timing was 25* and my all in was like 46* I think and not being a guru or anything but I think that is definitely what was causing my pinging I set the timing to the proper 18* base and went for a test blast and good news is the PING's gone I need to get heavier springs in my outers now as there is a delay on WOT then a kick in the pants.

Thanks Ron for your guidance and all others whom chirped in on this, I and Hyperutetic (whatever) pistons thank you!

Scott

Well....that sounds much better 

I had a strong suspiscion that the balancer was fubarred. There's no way that it shouldn't have run fine on Premium pump fuel....it had to be timing related because the AFR's are not that far off. 

Now it's time to get a new dampner and dial in the outboard carbs 

Good work Scott 


Ron

[b5blue]

The Firecore RTR has my 346 iron head, 9.5 to one running 89 oct. nicely! (Thanks Ron!) My math says I just might get to my goal of 87 oct. 

[ottawamerc]

Whats your recommendation on a dampener? I was going to pull mine and install the timing tape but I may just slide a new one in if I go that far? I should be getting my spring kit from NAPA today to set the secondaries, the bog and subsequent massive leaning out seems to be the light springs (yellow) in there. With the new timing setting I'm getting 13 A/F at cruise and then the huge spike lean at WOT then it settles back to 13.4 A/F. If I slow up the secondaries coming in do I still need to richen up those carbs?

Scott

[b5blue]

I'd try the springs first. Have you Quick Fuel metering plates for the outboards? 

[70sixpkrt]

This is a great post. After you get it all squared away, summarize everything you did.

[firefighter3931]

I'd try the springs first. Have you Quick Fuel metering plates for the outboards? 

One change at a time and see what difference it makes. Keep notes and log the results. 

You don't need to get too fancy with the balancer but something that is indexed would be nice :

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pfs-80013/overview/make/chrysler



Ron

[ottawamerc]

Thanks for the rec. Ron   now that I know the dampner has moved would that have a corresponding vibration? are they balanced? not sure if I'm asking this the right way

Scott

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the rec. Ron   now that I know the dampner has moved would that have a corresponding vibration? are they balanced? not sure if I'm asking this the right way

Scott

Hi Scott,

To answer your question ; yes it can cause a vibration when the outer ring slips because the dampner is balanced (harmonic balancer) 

Read the instructions on the PP balancer closely because that balancer is designed for use with both internal as well as external balance engine builds. There are detatchable weights that will have to be removed when using it with an internally balanced engine. 


Ron

[PackingSix]

Well first of all Happy New Year, and I will apologize in advance for resurrecting such an old post , however I am new to this forum, and wanted the previous information to be able to be referenced, and to keep things congruent.

I purchased this car from the previous owner, and this issue still seems to be prevalent, however I have some new details to share to see if I can resolve it once, and for all, and hopefully help some others at the same time.

So the "pining" is more like a rattle that is noticeable around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm under hard acceleration. At idle there is a slight valve train tick on cylinder on #1,#6, and #8. I figured it might be slight valve lash so I took the valve covers off to check it, and adjust them, however the builder left the stock non adjustable rocker arms on, and didn't put adjustable ones on. So I'm wondering if the ticking is because of the valve lash that I found on #1 exhaust, #6 exhaust, and #8 exhaust valve. I also am wondering what the stock push rod length is, because even though there is E Street heads put on the engine which spec 3/8" push rods, the builder used Comp Cams 7412's which are 5/16" and 9.295" long. So now I am trying to prep to do some engine work in the Spring when I bring her out of storage. I'm wondering if those push rods got bent, or, are the push rods short, and because of the non adjustable stock rocker arms there is not enough preload on the lifters causing the lash, thus creating the rattling in that RPM range as the rocker arms beat the crap out of the push pods?

I hope someone can help me verify if I'm on the right track.

Thank you in advance.             

[bee1971]

I would bee interested in what E Street Heads where used , 75cc or 84cc for compression reference
Are the spark plugs angled or straight ?

Also what camshaft ? A lot of these fast rate camshafts , especially the Comp Cams XE series are for the most part noisy - Like mentioned a rattle sound at certain RPMs

Nothing wrong with 5/16" push rods and non adjustable rockers with the E Street Heads - But again not knowing the Camshaft Specs


I would for piece of mind , pull the rocker arm shafts off , inspect all your push rods , and especially the individual rocker arm cups where the push rods ride
Are these aftermarket pieces ? Or factory original pieces - There is a lot of aftermarket junk stamped rocker arms being sold - Very thin

And then of course make sure the rocker arm shafts have the oil holes pointed down and angled towards the exhaust side of heads - Oil holes up will cause all kinds of clatter

And then if it is PINGING at that RPM range , try heavier springs in the distributor to slow down the advance just to confirm to see if it goes away

[bee1971]

OK - Read slowly LOL

Post 17


He said angled plugs - That means 75cc E Street Heads

84cc E Street Heads are straight plugs

He might have been guessing at the 10.1 Compression with those 75cc E Street Heads - Now you have to look at how far the pistons are down in the hole , what head gaskets where used - Again Camshaft Specs

Big difference between valve train noise rattle or clatter and compression pinging under load or a combination of both

[c00nhunterjoe]

Definitely need to determine if its a mechanical rattle or a ping. Old owner said ping and it was resolved after it was discovered that the balancer had spun and timing adjusted accordingly. Was the balancer ever replaced? If so where is the timing now assuming its a ping.
   Regarding noisey valvetrain on only certain cylinders. Since it has stamped steel rockers you will need to pull the intake and check lifter preload to see if the right pushrods are in it. If so and the preload is correct on all of them its probably junk lifters. If only those cylinders are loose and the others have preload- possible wiping cam.
Lots of things to check with little information on the build from the previous owner unfortunately

[PackingSix]

Hey thanks bee1971, and c00nhunterjoe foe the responses!

So as for your questions bee1971 when I pulled the plugs last year they were was no noticeable angle of the plugs going into the head, just nominal clearance with the headers. The cam shaft is a Comp Cam 270H-10 Duration 270 int/ext, duration at .50 inch 224 int/ext, int/ext lift .470 at factory .50 ratio, and 110 deg separation.

cc00nhunterjoe the harmonic balancer I don't believe was replaced, because it is Mopar orange, and no timing tape on it that the previous owner said he purchased, and 4 marks on it that my son, and I had to decipher which was actually TDC.

My son, and I advanced the timing to 19* base, and 38* total all in by 2,500 rpm when we first heard it, and thought it was pinging. We then retarded it to 18*, and 36* and the sound was still there always at 2,500, to 3,000. I have a couple of video's I will see if I can attach, of maybe send in a message to the both of you to go over.

It definitely is a metallic rattling sound, that I think the previous owner mistook for pre detonation, as we initially did as well.

I have been going over the build invoices to try, and determine exactly what was done, however the heads were not on the invoice from the builder. I will see if the picture attaches or not.

Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it, and hopefully get this resolved.     

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would replace the balancer 1st as the marks will not be right per the discovery of it being spun. Start there. Although if the engine is sitting on the floor, may be worth a teardown

[PackingSix]

The balancer my have been replace, just not with an aftermarket like suggested. The reason I say that is when we were trying to decipher the marks we verified the marks on the balancer when we had the valve covers off that way we could verify that #1 was at TDC, and it lined up with the groove on the balancer at the 0 on the timing marker. This is why I am so perplexed. The engine is in the car, the picture above was one the previous owner took when the engine was being built. I put it in for reference of the rocker arms. unfortunately the video is to large to upload.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Upload it to youtube

[PackingSix]

Ok let's see if these links to the two videos work.


https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRh16ZHihbzz47zGNiDBQQI7IFIfw8cw?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRh16ZHihbzz47zGNiDBQQI7IFIfw8cw?usp=sharing

[c00nhunterjoe]

That sounds like severe pinging

[ACUDANUT]

I am half deaf (really) Sounds good to me.

[PackingSix]

That sounds like severe pinging

So the first video the timing was 38* BTDC, and the second we dropped it to 34*BTDC. I wouldn't think that it should be pinging with that timing  . Just out of curiosity what was was the usual timing on a  stock 440? 

[c00nhunterjoe]

I am half deaf (really) Sounds good to me.

From 3 to 7 seconds in the 1st video, so bad it sounds like marbles.

[c00nhunterjoe]

That sounds like severe pinging

So the first video the timing was 38* BTDC, and the second we dropped it to 34*BTDC. I wouldn't think that it should be pinging with that timing  . Just out of curiosity what was was the usual timing on a  stock 440? 

What rpm does the pinging start vs go away, or does it never stop pinging under load. If that is a legitimate 34 degrees and pinging that bad, you need to check compression numbers to see if it is too high for pump gas. Im assuming you are runnign 93 in it?

[XH29N0G]

I would follow what c00nhunter suggests. 

Mine is somewhere around 10.1 and aluminum heads, but with a different cam.  This means you cannot use my experience directly, but for what its worth, I need to run it at 32 to 34 to avoid hearing clatter on pump fuel. The clatter is much less pronounced than yours and not as high pitched as your ping, but it is there.  Yours sounds like the old pinto my parents had in the 1970's. 

For what its worth, my compression tests came out a little more than 220.  I have not checked with a second tester to verify, but the same tester gave 140 on the engine before it was rebuilt.

[PackingSix]

What rpm does the pinging start vs go away, or does it never stop pinging under load. If that is a legitimate 34 degrees and pinging that bad, you need to check compression numbers to see if it is too high for pump gas. I'm assuming you are running 93 in it?
[/quote]

It starts some where between 2,500, and 3,00, and the highest I can get near me is 91. I've never pushed through it, just because if it is pinging, I don't want it doing damage. Here is another thing that I'm finding puzzling. The first video was on the highway in drive, in third gear doing 100 KPH. The rattle didn't start until I accelerated to pass.

The second video I started at approximately 5 KPH, and used the slap stick to shift through the gears. In first, and second I was past 3,000 RPM, and it wasn't until in third that the pinging started, and let's just say I was doing a little more then 100 KPH when the pinging started. Why wouldn't the pinging have been there in 1st, and 2nd gear? Especially 1st because the load would have been more because there was less momentum prior to acceleration.

I would like to thanks to everyone for the help, it is really appreciated.   

[XH29N0G]

I'll leave the main issue to c00nhunter and others, but have an idea about the 1st, 2nd, 3rd question. 

I believe you have the load on the engine backwards.  In 1st, the gearing reduces the load on the engine - like on a 10 speed bike in a low gear for climbing.   In 3rd, the gearing is set up to give the highest speed, but this transmits more load to the engine - like in a high gear in a bike. 

This is why the RPM climb fast in first and slow in 3rd. 

So the fact that you don't create pinging in 1st or 2nd but see it in 3rd is normal. 

When I have been in cars with pinging, I have also seen it work this way.

[b5blue]

Try finding a hill or overpass and at various speeds punch it going up hill. By increasing the load you can test for ping.  This testing confirmed I needed to swap to aluminum heads despite best tuning. I had to limit throttle to 3/4 mostly till the swap.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Need to start at bare bones basics and verify timing. Then if it starts in 3rd after a 2 gear pull, verify sufficient fuel pressure under load. Have you done a compression test to see what its blowing?

[PackingSix]

Need to start at bare bones basics and verify timing. Then if it starts in 3rd after a 2 gear pull, verify sufficient fuel pressure under load. Have you done a compression test to see what its blowing?

I haven't done a compression test yet. I just happened to find the previous owners questions, and posts on this forum when I was searching for solutions to the things I was questioning after I bought it. I will agree though with the previous owner not being impressed with the engine builder. Basically I have taken the info from the posts here to confirm what I am finding now going through the engine bit by bit one thing at a time, so I don't miss, or skip something. So basically I'm setting up my plan of attack for the Spring when I bring here out of storage.

I'm going to put the adjustable rocker arms on in the Spring to get rid of the lash. At that time I can reconfirm TDC to verify the timing, and do a compression test to see if she is still at the 175 psi I think the previous owner said his results were. As for the fuel pressure, the previous owner installed a electric fuel pump to assist with fuel pressure consistency, and initial start priming. 

Thanks again for the help, and I hope you can bare with me until I can get you that info. Good Old Canadian Winter! 

[c00nhunterjoe]

It has an electric and mechanical pump? If so, i personally hate that setup. Either way, verify the pressure under load, not just at idle. 175 psi should have no problem on pump gas with aluminum heads.

[PackingSix]

It has an electric and mechanical pump? If so, i personally hate that setup. Either way, verify the pressure under load, not just at idle. 175 psi should have no problem on pump gas with aluminum heads.

It's an electric pump at the tank. What is the downfall of that type of setup c00nhunterjoe? Is there a better option?

[WMopar71]

Hmmm, it's not convenient to source 93 octane fuel. I must ask others to determine what might be to cause of my problem.