Kimber Ultra Raptor II

[sanders7981]

Just got this last week, my second 1911.  I haven't taken it to the range yet, but my other Kimber has been completely reliable so I am not worried.  I got this for an every day carry pistol.  I have a full sized Custom II, but I bought it as a commemorative gun from a deployment a few years back to be a wall hanger... But I broke down and shot it a few times. 

[charge69]

Beautiful pistol!  The only pistol I have near that size is an Officer's Model Colt and it has been totally reliable. I am not fond of FLGR's but I understand their purpose and believe the Compact size 1911-type pistols are what they are made for.

Personally, the 3" barrel would be a deal-breaker as the Colt 3 1/2" barrel is as small as I like to go but, ....... give that bad boy a workout and test the reliability. I am betting it will be reliable enough to carry, meaning NO operator-induced malfunctions.

Again, that is a very nice looking pistol and I hope it shoots as well as it looks!

[sanders7981]

I plan to go with a railed 4in barrel for the next one.  For me, 3 is just as accurate in the distance it would be intended for.  I can shoot 3-5 inch groups a 25 yards with my full sized model, but what I needed was something more concealable.  I hope to get to the range with in the next week or so.   

[charge69]

It's not the 3" length of the barrel that bothers me, it's the fact that Colt determined for them in the Officers and Compact models, a 3 1/2" barrel was the shortest Colt could get to be reliable and that length is what they used in their shortest-barreled 1911-type pistols.  I think Colt now uses a 3" barrel in their New Agent and Defender pistols so, they must have worked out the reliability issues. I don't own either one but I really have no need for that short of a barrel on my .45 !

A rail on any pistol I own will go unused and only be there because the manufacturer put it there. Just not a rail fan and do not like the way they force you to point your weapon at whatever you want to light up!  Pointing your pistol at your wife because you did not hear her get up but was awakened by the noise in the other room while you are scared and still fighting to be awake just doesn't appeal to me! You are still too sleepy to realize your finger is on the trigger and a quick involuntary reflex will have you firing a shot you did not intend to take! Also, A lighted rail pretty much gives away your position to someone looking for you!

In other words, if you cannot buy it without the rail, I probably would buy it but a rail detracts from the looks of a pistol to me and just does not get used!

[sanders7981]

The new colt pistols you mentioned do come in 3".  Years ago, I never liked anything smaller then the officer models, but e price was too good on this to pass up.  I used both Colt and Springfield at work, but those were full sized.   

The rail has always received mixed opinions.  I have one at work on my Colt, and I like the added weight it gives.  Not much, but enough that I can tell when shooting on the range.  I may never put a light on one that I buy but who knows.  There are a few laser/light combos that are pretty nice.  The light just adds to the element of surprise and if you're using a pistol there shouldn't be much concern about giving your position away because gun fights with pistol are typically in very close quarters.

[charge69]

You have a Colt Railgun? Or does it have a rail added? My LGS had one of those new Railguns in and tried to sell it to me but, they just do not look right to me.  The light mounted on a gun is just something I do not use nor intend to, but I cannot imagine a use for a light other than "clearing your home or building. That would be relegating it to nightstand duty only for me but, again, light in one hand and weapon in the other is my preferred style, even for a "nightstand" gun.

The light might add to YOUR element of surprise also aiming a loaded and cocked weapon at a friend or loved one by mistake!  Years ago, the Marine Corps trained me to not point my weapon at anything I wouldn't shoot and, I guess that old school way of thinking still goes around here.  I have much more control over my light and my weapon if they are separate.

Anyway, congrats again on the new Kimber. Looks nice

[sanders7981]

Yep, I have the new CQB M45 at work.  The lights on the rail take about half a second to flick on with my finger straight one off the trigger.  I've been an active duty Marine for the past 15 years, and if I point my weapon at something... I do intend to shoot.   

I don't get all your ranting on a railed gun with light being pointed at a family member or loved one... What's up with that? 

[charge69]

Well, I hadn't considered it a "rant" about pointing a loaded firearm at a loved one or family but, I guess it is what it is. 

Rails have become very popular on many types of firearms for many different applications. I, and its' just me and my opinion, have no use for most of them.

None of my AR's, especially none of my AK's and only the pistols that you could not buy without one, have a rail.

Combat operations, especially now that urban fighting is much more the norm, make having a rail advantageous. Checking your home for the "bogeyman" that just broke your window or kicked your door in and woke you from a sound sleep, maybe so or maybe not!  I'll take "not"

Rails seem to be very popular these days with the younger shooters but, they are just not for me.  YMMV

[twodko]

"I've been an active duty Marine for the past 15 years, and if I point my weapon at something... I do intend to shoot."

Roger that. 70-76 old school squid here. Back in the day our training was same same.

[sanders7981]

"I've been an active duty Marine for the past 15 years, and if I point my weapon at something... I do intend to shoot."

Roger that. 70-76 old school squid here. Back in the day our training was same same.

Absolutely!  The basic marksmanship fundamentals have stayed the same, only thing that has evolved is the tactics, techniques, and procedures in which they are applied in the ever changing face of warfare. 

I do see how rails have become popular, especially with the younger crowd.  Many of the accessories available free up your non-dominant hand if required. 

Hoping to get to the range this weekend after I complete all the chores to prep our house for rent since I have PCS orders this summer.

[twodko]

True that about tacti bling these days. The montra back in the day was "light = life". 

[charge69]

True that about tacti bling these days. The montra back in the day was "light = life". 

If you've ever been in combat,  truer words have never been spoken!  Lighter weight rifle means more ammo can be carried!

[sanders7981]

Ain't that the truth.  Problem now is they load us down with so much...thankfully the tecnology has allowed for lighter materials and equipment.

[myk]

Nice weapon.  I've been looking to pick up a Sig 1911 Nitron but Hotchkis has my money tied up...

[sanders7981]

Nice weapon.  I've been looking to pick up a Sig 1911 Nitron but Hotchkis has my money tied up...

Myk, I'd look into another manufacturer.  Sigs customer service sucks.  Here's my personal experience wu them, and why I will never buy another gun from them.  The majority of gun manufacturers will offer commemorative issue weapons for military/law enforcement.  I set up a order with Kimber a few years ago for my Marines when we were in Afghanistan for one of their 1911s.  One of my Marines was deployed again in late 2012 and set up the same deal with Kimber, this time for a railed model, and he also set up an order through Sig to get their Sig516 assault rifle.  The rifles would cost us well below MSRP, and I was in the market for one so I placed an order.  Each ordered the rifle through Sigs website, and was required to pay for it in full by Jan 12, 2013.  The rifles were to be completed in May 2013.  I ended up deploying in March, so I would just get mine when I got back.  The rifles ended up being made late, and were completed late June.  I returned late Oct, and went to pick mine up from the local gun store where they had all been shipped only to find out that there were nine that didn't get made.  The gun store contacted Sig to let them know and was not told of an estimated completion date.  I was already a pissed off because if there was a problem, or some didn't get made in the first batch hen they should have been made immediately following and shipped out ASAP.   So I called Sig the next day and spoke to the rep informing him about the order name which he recalled and told about the situation.  I could tell by the tone in his voice that he had no clue some of the rifles didn't get produced, and he asked me to hold.  About five minutes late he gets back to me saying that it would be done in Feb 2014...  ... That was the first week of Nov.  I then called again in Jan 2014 to double check the timeline because I was due to receive orders overseas and wanted to be able to shoot it a few times before having to leave it with my parents... Timeline was then pushed back again to end of March!    I explained my situation regarding orders, and the rep said he would try to get it to the head of line in production... Which pissed me off even more because I told him that was unacceptable and they were quick to take my money, but couldn't correct this problem back in June of 2013!  Then came all the excuses... "Well it takes time to make the rifle, that gun is in demand, maybe the factory didn't have parts..".   . I told him, no-go... Just refund my money.  

Customer service sucked!  Plus I have quite a few Marine buddies that had Sig 1911s and were not satisfied with the pistol due to malfunctions.  Not surprising since they use an external extractor.  Kimber tried that and had issues, then went back to internal extractors and problem solved.  Sig on the other hand still uses them.  If your going to get an entry level/basic 1911 don't go with Sig IMO.  Get a Colt, Springfield, or Kimber.  I own two Kimbers and have had zero issues with my first one.  I expect the same out of my latest addition.  

Here is my other Kimber.  


And the Springfield I used on my last deployment before getting the new Colt CQB M45.  The springer was beat to hell, but functioned flawlessly for me.



Interesting article from a Sig fanboy about the Nitron too...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/foghorn/gun-review-sig-sauer-1911-nitron/


Anyhow, sorry for the long rant, but I like guns about as much as I like cars...  Just my   on the subject.

[charge69]

sanders7981,  so sorry to hear of your experience with SigSauer customer service.  They make a nice quality product for a premium price and you should expect superior customer service from them.  Unfortunately, I have heard of their guns getting this type of service a lot more than I should.

It might look like a quality 1911-type pistol but, there are too many stories of problems with them to have me even consider one. I don't know if it is their using an external extractor or not as a lot of pistols use this design but, they do seem to have a problem with reliability for their 1911-type pistols!

The Sig's gas-piston action on the 556 and its' variants is very enticing but, I am afraid of SigSauer's bad customer service reputation. I'll stick with my M4 Colts, I suppose.

Again a good report from you on your bad experience with customer service and, costing what they charge for their product, I would expect a lot better treatment and answers!  They would not have kept my money as long as they did yours!

[stripedelete]

Hmm?  Maybe that's why Sig was giving away a 1911/22 with the purchase of a 1911. 

Anyone have any experience with the SA Range Officer in 9mm?

[sanders7981]

Charge69, No worries.  Sig did well with the 226 and 229... 1911s, not so much.  Their gas/piston system rifle is good, my dad bought one from gander mountain after he heard about the one I was ordering.  I like it, but was too pissed off to wait any longer for mine.  I moved on and found a local company here in NC that I plan to purchase an AR/M4 from, Barnes Precision Machine.  I shot a buddies of mine that ran like a dream and was extremely accurate.  I also looked at Daniel Defense, we use their uppers with our Colt lower receivers.  But I am stuck on the Barnes rifle.  You can't go wrong with your Colt either.  They make a hell of a workhorse rifle, battle tested and proven!

Hmm?  Maybe that's why Sig was giving away a 1911/22 with the purchase of a 1911. 

Anyone have any experience with the SA Range Officer in 9mm?

Springfield makes great 1911s, but why are you wanting a 9mm?  I know Kimber makes some 9mm models, and I have heard about numerous issues with the 1911 frame and 9mm from Kimber owners.  Not sure why all the problems though.  I have never heard anything about the SA RO in 9mm.  I honestly didn't know they made one in that caliber.  If you're going to get a SA, might as well get it in a 45 IMO.

  I initially looked to them to make our commemorative pistol, but I was told by their rep it would be a three year wait!  This is because Springfield is/was focusing more on the XD platform and was increasing production on them...this reducing production on their 1911s.  The one I carried in Afghanistan was a Professional, the FBI model.  It's their top of the line 1911.  They run about $2500-3000 for a Pro, and mine had been beat to DEATH... But it ran smooth.  Again, SA makes some great 1911s and has, from everything I have heard and read, good customer service too. 

[Dino]

My wife has a Kimber.  That little sob packs a punch.  She recently mentioned we should go to  the range, I think it's been about 7 years since we last went and fired a gun so she's probably right.  It's just silver and black though, not as nice looking as yours.

[sanders7981]

My wife has a Kimber.  That little sob packs a punch.  She recently mentioned we should go to  the range, I think it's been about 7 years since we last went and fired a gun so she's probably right.  It's just silver and black though, not as nice looking as yours.

ANY Kimber is nice!  Lol.  I like just about all their designs, but I am not a fan of their little 1911 frame 9mm pistols.  I got my wife interested in shooting a couple years ago when I got my first pistol.  However, she absolutely hates shooting my .45!  Too much gun for her...or so she thinks.  She just hates the loudness.  So I got her a Walter P22.   

[myk]

Nice weapon.  I've been looking to pick up a Sig 1911 Nitron but Hotchkis has my money tied up...

Myk, I'd look into another manufacturer.

Yeah I guess you're right, as I've been reading up on the Sigs and their sporadic quality control and lacking customer service, however during the year of my studying the 1911 it seems that the platform is problematic no matter the maker.  Whether someone spent uber-dollars on a Nighthawk Custom 1911 or cheap'ed out like I did and bought a Rock Island Tactical 1911, it seems that 1911 supporters were divided: those who had mechanical issues, those who didn't, those who liked the respective manufacturer and those who didn't, etc, etc, etc.  I have a gun safe full of different types of guns from various makers and they all went "bang" out of the box, round after round, one magazine after another, unlike my 1911 that had to receive three aftermarket 8 round 'mags to minimize the FTF's, FTB's, FTE's, etc, and don't even get me started on hollow points.

Personally, I WANT a 1911 to be my primary sidearm; it's big, heavy, beautiful, makes NO sense as a practical sidearm but is something I want no matter what, sort of like a '69 Charger!  As a matter of fact, didn't the US Marines recently commission some form of 1911 as a duty weapon?  But unlike the US Military or well-heeled buyers, I don't have the time, money or the patience to tinker, test and tune a 1911 to a reliable state of usage.  My weapons are for self-defense and I need them to be 100% reliable every time.  Again, I was considering a Sig but as of now I don't know.  Furthermore, there're a lot of 1911's that aren't even available to me because California doesn't want me to have these guns.  

If someone can point me in the direction of a 1911 that is good-to-go out of the box with a history of little to no issues and a reasonable price-tag AND legal in California I'll jump on it.  As for now, I'll have to make due with my wimpy Beretta 92F...

[sanders7981]

If someone can point me in the direction of a 1911 that is good-to-go out of the box with a history of little to no issues and a reasonable price-tag AND legal in California I'll jump on it.  As for now, I'll have to make due with my wimpy Beretta 92F...

I know Cali is pretty strict on gun sale... All thanks to the DOJ.  Like I said, Colt, Springfield, and kimber are all great production guns, even Remington.  These are all your mid range priced guns.  RIA has gained some popularity with the crowd as being a less expensive option that you can customize as needed, but I try to stick with major brands with good reputations.  A lot if the issues you also read about on the inter webs is from buyers bitching because they think all should be good to go from the start when breaking in the pistol.  That is one of Kimbers policies, 500 rounds to break in it in.  I have had no issues from my kimber or other guns at work that wasn't my fault, like an FTF due to a dirty gun.  My only FTF with my Custom II Kimber was due to the weapon being dirty after firing 300 rounds of Winchester 230 gr fmj during one range session.  I'd say that is totally acceptable.  You will be hard pressed to find a gun that doesn't have some kind of issue, folks need to realize that.  There is no perfect gun.  What they also need to learn is once a malfunction occurs, how to get the gun back in action as quickly as possible so if you ever should need to do it during a time that your life depended on it. 

My Raptor is my every day carry, before that my Custom II was.  1911s are bigger then most carry guns I the market, but there ain't nothing else like them!  And yes, the USMC recently awarded Colt a contract to produce new 1911s with a rail for specialized units.  Its the M45 CQB.  Real nice pistol, but not something for easy concealment. 

[twodko]

If a shooter doesn't clean their weapon after every range visit they can't complain about malfunctions.

[DixieRestoParts]

Great discussion here. I'll throw in my , I love M1911's. My concealed carry has been a Glock 27. No complaints. But, I decided to change things up a bit.

I bought a Randall Stainless Commander serivce model C. Love it. Probably will be my CC.

Also, bought a Springfield Mil-spec which I have not fired yet.

I have a RIA Govt Model that I have fired some, no complaints. Found a sale at Christmas for a new one at $325, bought it and had it engraved for my dad as a gift.

During the Sig Sauer promo, I bought a few of them. LOL, then I saw this post about the complaints. Hope I don't have those issues. I have not fired any of them yet. I hope to sell of a couple of them and the .22's and wind up in the one I keep for a minimum.

I have a C3 which I intend to compare to the Randall for CC.

A Spartan which I bought because I thought it was cool.

A Scorpion and TACOPS which I bought with the intention to resale.

I fired one of the .22's and it performed flawlessly and was very accurate. I could actually hit center mass at 50+ yards, which is good for me as my eyes and hands aren't what they used to be.

I've always admired Kimber, but never bought one. I'll have to try one of those one day. I have a Gold Cup Series 70 that my dad gave me 30+ years ago and I love it. It'll become a hand me down to one of my sons.  

[ACUDANUT]

Guns kill people. 

[polywideblock]

people kill people   

[ACUDANUT]

Poly Wanker. If I wanted your opinion, I would beat it out of you. lol

[sanders7981]

Great discussion here. I'll throw in my , I love M1911's. My concealed carry has been a Glock 27. No complaints. But, I decided to change things up a bit.

I bought a Randall Stainless Commander serivce model C. Love it. Probably will be my CC.

Also, bought a Springfield Mil-spec which I have not fired yet.

I have a RIA Govt Model that I have fired some, no complaints. Found a sale at Christmas for a new one at $325, bought it and had it engraved for my dad as a gift.

During the Sig Sauer promo, I bought a few of them. LOL, then I saw this post about the complaints. Hope I don't have those issues. I have not fired any of them yet. I hope to sell of a couple of them and the .22's and wind up in the one I keep for a minimum.

I have a C3 which I intend to compare to the Randall for CC.

A Spartan which I bought because I thought it was cool.

A Scorpion and TACOPS which I bought with the intention to resale.

I fired one of the .22's and it performed flawlessly and was very accurate. I could actually hit center mass at 50+ yards, which is good for me as my eyes and hands aren't what they used to be.

I've always admired Kimber, but never bought one. I'll have to try one of those one day. I have a Gold Cup Series 70 that my dad gave me 30+ years ago and I love it. It'll become a hand me down to one of my sons.  

Sounds like you have some nice guns.  I don't complain about Glocks either...very dependable guns.  I have used them down range a few times.  They seem to run and run without needing cleaning, which is primarily due to the finding pin and hammer all being enclosed in the rail.  The RIAs are good guns for the price if you want something to beat on at the range and are into modifying at home.  I plan to get one sometime just to tinker on at home and add upgrades too.

[polywideblock]

Poly Wanker. If I wanted your opinion, I would beat it out of you. lol

long swim mate 

[twodko]

Indeed. 

[ACUDANUT]

I'll take a Glock anyday, over your 7 shot 45's.
Poly, I might use a paddle boat, so I can do some fishing on the way. lol

[sanders7981]

I'll take a Glock anyday, over your 7 shot 45's.
Poly, I might use a paddle boat, so I can do some fishing on the way. lol

Quality over quantity... I only need one, maybe two shots if I am shooting hammered pairs

[ACUDANUT]

 Then why have machine guns devil dog ?  It's called fire and maneuver.  Your not a 0311 are you ?

[sanders7981]

That's a different equation lol   nope, not an 0311.

I like Glocks, nothing against them at all.  I use a Glock 19 as a secondary when I deploy.  Fairly easy to conceal over our 1911s. 

[John L]

Love my 1911's have 8 of them all Kimbers except one old Remington UMC made in 1918 if I remember correctly. Never had any problems with any of them, never shot the Colt. I just cannot get used to the DAO or DA/SA triggers, and my hands are on the small side so the double stack mags are way too large, the 1911's just fit me well.

[ACUDANUT]

That's a different equation lol   nope, not an 0311.

I like Glocks, nothing against them at all.  I use a Glock 19 as a secondary when I deploy.  Fairly easy to conceal over our 1911s. 

How do you get away with that ?

[sanders7981]

By not being an 0311     We have them in our armory and are issued one. 

[ACUDANUT]

What happened to the standard issue Berretta ?

[sanders7981]

We still have them.  I am at MARSOC, we get better toys lol. 

[DixieRestoParts]

Not trying to change the subject, but my Dad gave me this today, to sell for him. I posted I locally for sale, but it's unique enough I thought I'd post it here for you guys to check out. It's a Grendel P30, semi-auto with 30 round magazine, shoots 22 Magnum.

[stripedelete]

I posted I locally for sale,

Do you use Georgia Outdoors Trader?

[ACUDANUT]

Sanders. what was your MOS before you made NCO and SNCO.  Was your B billet recruiter or DI

[sanders7981]

0811, didn't get the opportunity to do a B billet. 

[redmist]

If you use the weapon with the mounted light correctly, you won't have a problem with accidentally pointing a loaded weapon at a family member.

The correct light and technique will let you use the large splash pattern of a good high end light to do your identification, while still keeping your weapon at the ready, but off target.


Buy nice stuff, and get the training to use it correctly.


OP nice looking gun!  My experience with Kimbers has been less than stellar.

[DixieRestoParts]

I posted I locally for sale,

Do you use Georgia Outdoors Trader?

Yes, sometimes.

[hatersaurusrex]

Myk have you tried coating the barrel and ramp with moly lube?  Worked pretty well on an old Gold Cup I used to have that was 'sticky'

[Drache]

This is currently on route:

[myk]

Myk have you tried coating the barrel and ramp with moly lube?  Worked pretty well on an old Gold Cup I used to have that was 'sticky'

With the new 'mags the malfunctions have pretty much disappeared; I was just annoyed that it needed to "break in."  I was told that this is normal...

[sanders7981]

This is currently on route:

That's the other one I have... A great and accurate pistol! 

[dstryr]

Charge69, No worries.  Sig did well with the 226 and 229... 1911s, not so much.   

Hope most 229s are better than mine.  Picked up a .40 stainless elite in March, shot it 3 different times with probably 6-7 different brands of ball and JHP ammo and would get 2-3 FTFs out of either mag.  Very rare to not have at least one FTF in a mag.  I called customer service and the first guy says the gun is from before 2005 and has no warranty.  Without the case in hand I didn't know what mfg date was on the label.  Tailspin, a grand for a gun that don't shoot and not under warranty; called my dealer and he was thinking WTH too...

Grabbed the case over my lunch hour and the label said Jan 2014 then called Sig again, got another guy, and he verified the first guy had mis-entered the S/N, after me giving it 2x and him reading it back correctly!?!?

Within 1/2 hour I had a FedEx 2-day call tag in my email.  Gun's been back to Sig for about 2 weeks.  Expect to see it in another couple of weeks.  If I have more trouble I'll be looking for a replacement from Sig.

Baby's heavy and sure does shoot smooth, when she's working that is.

[Drache]

I've never had a problem with a Sig, ever. I've packed both the P226, P229 (both in 9mm).

But ANY gun company can produce a couple bad lemons out of hundreds.

[dstryr]

Yep, agree, so will give this gun its due opportunity to prove itself.  My 2 FNP40s-perfect from the first round.  3600+ rounds through one, maybe 350 through the other, only have had failure to eject with a couple boxes of Federal American Eagle ammo.  Everything else, perfect performance.

[myk]

Well believe it or not, I was going to give up on 1911's entirely and go with Smith & Wesson's MP .40 for my "ultra-reliable" defense sidearm, but I missed the deadline before that gun went off of California's approved gun roster.  Instead, I'm looking into Kimber's TLE/RL II. It has all of the features I want, including the build of a 1911, skeletonized hammer, trigger, beaver safety, night sights and a rail (which I know is ghastly to many 1911 purists), and I have until December before California's gun ban takes it out of my hands permanently.  Only thing now is to decide between finishing the Hotchkis upgrades on the Charger or get my gun...

[sanders7981]

Well believe it or not, I was going to give up on 1911's entirely and go with Smith & Wesson's MP .40 for my "ultra-reliable" defense sidearm, but I missed the deadline before that gun went off of California's approved gun roster.  Instead, I'm looking into Kimber's TLE/RL II. It has all of the features I want, including the build of a 1911, skeletonized hammer, trigger, beaver safety, night sights and a rail (which I know is ghastly to many 1911 purists), and I have until December before California's gun ban takes it out of my hands permanently.  Only thing now is to decide between finishing the Hotchkis upgrades on the Charger or get my gun...

I'm a fan of rails... They do serve their purpose. 

[Drache]

I'm a fan of rails... They do serve their purpose. 

I like proper control of a weapon and with my sidearm, that is a steady two handed grip. Can't do that with one hand holding a flash light 

[ACUDANUT]

MYK, if you had bought the S&W MP 40 cal. earlier, would you still be allowed to own it ? What about a new resident who brings one with him on his move?
California is tuff on gun control, but I don't see them going to an extreme and searching peoples houses. 

[myk]

MYK, if you had bought the S&W MP 40 cal. earlier, would you still be allowed to own it ? What about a new resident who brings one with him on his move?
California is tuff on gun control, but I don't see them going to an extreme and searching peoples houses. 

Yes, residents of California would still be able to own it, I just can't legally buy it new in a store.  But, get this: if someone wanted to do a private sale via PPT/private party tranfer, apparently that's legal.     Also, if someone had one from out of state and then moved here after the ban, that's legal also as long as the weapon is registered in 60 days. 

It's just a matter of time before all firearms of any type are banned in California; this handgun roster nonense is a defacto ban in progress...

[Rolling_Thunder]

I love my P229 Sig in .40cal...     one of the most well balanced and accurate sidearms IMO --  Heavy? yes...    Large fat frame?  Yes....     BUT - the balance between weight, recoil, and accuracy make it a worth while package. My second choice is a 226 in 9mm....    A little less weight

I personally hate my duty weapon (M9) here in the USAF. I personally think there are much better weapons out there to replace it.

[ACUDANUT]

 I'll take a Glock any day, over a Berretta.

[sanders7981]

I'll take a Glock any day, over a Berretta.

Agree... Beretta was and is the worst semi auto handgun the us military has ever used.

[ACUDANUT]

It was the cheapest, so there you go. Lowest bid gets the government contract. 

[sanders7981]

Very true...  And sad at the same time.