New engine pushrods coming off rockers

[Calif240]

Thanks all for the input...

FLY469RTSE... I'll be the first to admit that my experience here is lacking, so I'll definitely take all the pictures I can and describe the best way I know how. I already dropped off the heads this morning. The valve train is the Comp Magnum roller rockers, comp dual springs, comp magnum pushrods, and comp roller hydraulic camshaft @ .540 lift. Valves are also brand new. I'll have to take some close-ups of the rockers and geometry as I can. Are you thinking the pushrods look too short or too long? I'll take a full picture of the rockers and all to show any bushings and rollers and all.

BSB67... I think he was saying that the oil during startup hadn't gotten to the lifters yet and that the bleed-down or leak down from the lifters allowed the plunger to drop too far... but I agree/understand what you're saying as far as not understanding how that could really happen if everything is correct. These lifters are not the race lifters from Scorpion. I spoke to them this morning and they said that 0.030 is their starting recommendation for pre-load, but that they have all kinds of guys doing 0.080 and 0.100. I'll try to get the valve spring pressures from the specific model of comp springs that comp paired for me.

The only other thing I can think of is that I got the engine back in early January and didn't get it started until March because it was still getting final repairs around the front due to the wreck. That being said, i'm not sure if the lifters could have bled down more than usual and then even when I pre-oiled for the initial startup, it didn't get the oil to the lifters yet and then I started and it threw? Not sure, but just trying to describe anything that I haven't mentioned that is out of normal circumstances...

From a physics perspective, the only way that the rods could get thrown is if the rocker stays high when the lifter drops (valve sticks open or is sluggish coming back down), or if the plunger bleeds down too far (assuming pushrods aren't getting pushed or bound somehow causing them to get pushed out) If I mis-speak here, correct me.

Thanks,
Terry

[ACUDANUT]

if you had pump gas in since September i'll bet that is what is wrong with your car. even if you put fresh gas in,, it still has bad fuel in it.

this ethanol blend fuel goes bad in a month or 2.

I don't agree. It lasts 3 times that or better. 

[Kern Dog]

I am not a member of Facebook. I purposely make it a point to avoid those types of social type sites. Nobody care or needs to know what I had for lunch or the brand of toilet paper that I use.
Just because someone wrote something on that site, it is now gospel? Sorry, I'm not buying that. If a seasoned respected mechanic cared to corroborate this, I'd me more likely to believe it. Referring to a site instead of explaining yourself seems like you read it somewhere so it must be true.
I've ran crappy gas in cars before. I've ran it in lawn mowers too. They may knock and hesitate a bit, but I still think it is physically impossible for any fuel to overcome valvespring pressure to the point where a valve just hangs open. Impossible. If there is a chunk of crud resting on the valve seat, sure...you have a valve that is as closed as it can be but it isn't sealing.
Carry on..............

[fy469rtse]

A bit hard to tell terry from shots, they look short, and with valve open they look like there binding at the cup
Ball size on pushrod matches cup in rocker ?, I would like to see a shot of top of valve stem , hoping there is a wear pattern or a glimpse of one , also a shot of resting rocker, roller should be slightly over centre and when valve opens roller should run equally past centre on stem about the same distance,
Did this make sense ?
I set my rockers up first, some times , well really always, shimming under shafts to get that part right, then I can establish push rod length
How did you go with heads , make sure your there to see for yourself, other wise you will end up paying for there mistakes ,

[fy469rtse]

Sorry terry, keep your chin up, just persevere , the worst of your car troubles are behind you,
See if you can find details about your springs , installed height , seat pressure ,

[BSB67]

BSB67... I think he was saying that the oil during startup hadn't gotten to the lifters yet and that the bleed-down or leak down from the lifters allowed the plunger to drop too far...

From a physics perspective, the only way that the rods could get thrown is if the rocker stays high when the lifter drops (valve sticks open or is sluggish coming back down), or if the plunger bleeds down too far (assuming pushrods aren't getting pushed or bound somehow causing them to get pushed out) If I mis-speak here, correct me.

Right.  I understand what he is saying.  Almost every car in America has hydraulic lifters.  A hydraulic lifter should not bleed down, and if they do, the plunger usually does not have enough travel to let all the pushrods fall out.  Apparently these might.

Your thinking is logical.  It would also include rockers seizing on the shaft, which can happen for two or three reasons as well, and adjusters backing off.  But these do not seem to be the case for you.  Just because I like being a PITA,  you might want to refer to my first two posts.

Stuff crashing into each other would not cause the pushrods to fall out without rod damage.  However the opposite could be true.  Things causing the push rods to fall out could cause things to crash.

This is still all conjecture anyways and I'm not yet convinced of anything.  You still have not determined the cause.   Take the lifter apart.  If you do not have a snap ring tool, buy one.  You should be able to determine with some creative measuring if the plunger has enough potential travel to let the push rod fall out.

[cdr]

i am not going to argue with anyone on this bad fuel issue,i have seen it many times with my own eyes,have been a mechanic most of my life.

[ACUDANUT]

X2

"I've ran crappy gas in cars before. I've ran it in lawn mowers too. They may knock and hesitate a bit, but I still think it is physically impossible for any fuel to overcome valvespring pressure to the point where a valve just hangs open. Impossible. If there is a chunk of crud resting on the valve seat, sure...you have a valve that is as closed as it can be but it isn't sealing."



 

[Cooter]

i am not going to argue with anyone on this bad fuel issue,i have seen it many times with my own eyes,have been a mechanic most of my life.

It's ok Charlie. I guess now you know how I feel here sometimes. Lol.
I know what your referring to here and it does happen. Just when you get five people that all wanna dogpile, it's hard to be humble I know....I believe there's a reason many here aren't on FB. Many comments that garner support (no matter how wrong/incorrect), would get crucified there. Only the strong survive buddy.
You've always been square dealin and kind to me, hense my reply here. Hell, I've even took the time to learn a few things from ya! Lol.

[cdr]

thanks cooter 

[randy73]

if you had pump gas in since September i'll bet that is what is wrong with your car. even if you put fresh gas in,, it still has bad fuel in it.

this ethanol blend fuel goes bad in a month or 2.

Not even close, if that was the case E85 would have to pumped out of gas stations regularly. Common myth that has been debunked many, many times. What usually happens is a holding tank has gas that sits a long time (6 mths or greater) before going to a gas station, happens more often at cheap companies that do not put in any stablizer or little stabilzer or controls gasoline flow through their companies tanks, i.e. one tank maybe emtied regularly and a another might only be used when demand is high.

[ACUDANUT]

I've been a mechanic for 30 plus years, and I say fuel will not cause a pushrod/lifter failure.

[c00nhunterjoe]

joe needs to go back to moparts,i did not insult him or anyone,he needs to think about that.

Wow.   

I dont care if the gas was 3 weeks or a year old. Its not going to hold his valves open, let all the pushrods fall out, not smack the pistons, and then let them close.... maybe if it was 10 year old gas that was varnish mixed with old oil that has been leaking into valve stems on an old engine thats been sitting for 10 years and its all gooed and crusted over keeping the valves that are static in an open position, open when the engine cranks... maybe then.... maybe.... but not on a brand new engine that was just fired up.

One of 4 things in my opinion here. Wrong pushrods, wrong valve guide clearance, defective lifters, assembly error.

[ACUDANUT]

another agreed member. 

[fuzzycoronet]

check valve springs and valves on ones that have come off. they are sticking open. binding valve guides or springs too weak.

[69rtse4spd]

 Stock type valve seals are desinged to let a little bit of oil to leak through to lub  the steams. Viton type seala are not, having made the rubber molds for the stock type years ago, internal threads in them. If guide clearance is to tight, then no lube & they could have hung up. Take the valves out & check for scoring. . 

[fy469rtse]

  waiting to see what was found to heads , guides tight ? How did you go terry at engine shop

[Calif240]

I had to drop off heads at shop because I had to travel for work. He hasn't gotten into them yet since he was wrapping up a few other builds and all. I'm going to get the valve spring pressures and spring rates tonight if I can and stop by in the morning (fri) to see about verifying the correct springs and also verifying rocker geometry and oiling/clearance. I also have a request to the lifter company for what they recommend in terms of valve pressure to prevent bleed off and pump up... Hopefully will have something shortly... All of everyone's help sure is appreciated...

Terry

[Calif240]

From the lifter mfg (Scorpion)...

"Terry,
  We have customers routinely using 150 lbs closed and 450 lbs open with some up to 550 lbs open.   The best suggestion I could make is to use the recommended spring loads (as a minimum) that the cam manufacturer recommends as the aggressiveness of the cam lobe, valve train weight, rocker ratio, pushrod stiffness and rpm are what dictates these loads.
  The hydraulic lifter's job is to remove any lash or separation in the valve train.   Inadequate spring loads or pushrod flex/rebound causes the separation and the lifter pumps up.   We have racers turning 8500+ rpm when everything is correct.   
Gordon    "

My valve springs are  111, 388 at installed height and open pressure respectively according to the recommendation from comp... If anything I should be getting pump up instead of bleed based on spring pressures, correct?

I'll trust but verify on the springs... But leads me to suspect some of the other causes you guys have recommended.

Thanks
Terry

[c00nhunterjoe]

What worries me more and more is that all of the basic questions you are researching, your engine builder should have already had/known when he built your engine.

[Calif240]

I actually selected almost all of the parts based on Comps recommended springs etc. He did all of the assembly and provided guidance when I had questions, but he did no parts selection. He validated several parts that I got and gave me final dimensions on pushrods and other needed parts. If the parts are not matching properly then it is likely my fault. But everything that could be wrong w the current setup (w exception of assembly error) would be due to comps parts since they are the entire valve train. Everything was matched as a set from comp w exception of lifters. I selected lifters based on experience HemiGeno  had w bad comp roller hydraulic lifters. Should know more soon from builder....

[BSB67]

Have you taken the lifter apart to check travel?

[Calif240]

Not yet... I've never taken a lifter apart, so I'm reading about it so I don't break anything. Not sure I'll be able to until Sunday due to Derby weekend plans...

[ACUDANUT]

Who takes lifter's apart ?

[ACUDANUT]

Not yet... I've never taken a lifter apart, so I'm reading about it so I don't break anything. Not sure I'll be able to until Sunday due to Derby weekend plans...