Mild 440 build planning

[66Charger440]

Hello all.  I've been reading here for a few years and now need to ask your advice on putting together the correct components for a strong street driven 440.  I have a 66 Charger (4300 lbs w/ driver) with engine and drive train from 71 GTX.  It is a 440HP, 727, Dana 60 w/ 3.54.  Current carb is a Carter 4682 (small Carter from 69 383 A/T).  The car will spin it's tires, but just feels a little sluggish from what I expect.  I put a Pertronix Ignitor II distributor and Flame Thrower coil on.  Other than that, all is bone stock (intake, HP manifolds, 346 heads, not sure of cam).  I did a compression test and got #1-140 psi, 2-140 psi, 3-132 psi, 4-122 psi, 5-138 psi, 6-118 psi, 7-132 psi, and 8-135 psi.  Transmission is slipping to where car will almost not move.  I most likely will never have this car on the strip, but want a very strong low to mid performing car for the street, and done right.  I doubt this car will see much/any 6000+ rpm, but want it to pull hard.

1.  Will rebuild 727 and get 2400 stall 11" converter from PTC.
2.  Planning on Lunati Voodoo 60303 (old number) Does this take full advantage of .904 lifter?
3.  Plan to put on the Performer RPM.
4.  Carb?  Proform 750 or 850 DP?  Thinking Proform Street Series?  Will this provide the correct fuel curve for my car?  Should I be looking at VS instead?
5.  I am looking at the TTI headers and exhaust.  Thinking 1 7/8 header into the X-Pipe 3 inch?  Overkill, and go with 2.5 inch?  I've read the threads, not sure here.  Mild build may be just as well with 2.5 inch?
6.  Should I be looking at the Edelbrock E Street or RPM  84 cc heads?  What specifically would I need to have done to them before putting them on?  Valves checked?  Valve train okay with 60303?  Should I get the Lunati springs, or should I get Comp 911's?
7.  Should I be looking at new pistons?  If so, which ones (zero deck and brand?)?  What else needs to be replaced/checked when changing pistons?
8.  Is the Firecore the way to go, or is my Pertronix good?

Any other thoughts or info is greatly appreciated.

Take care,
Josh

[fy469rtse]

Before you tear down engine , I would now do a leak down test, ? Determin whether its the rings or valves on a couple of cylinders that are at fault, not bad numbers for compression,
Do the trans first, have a good read on here for upgrades and discussions ,
Lots you can do to make a trans perform,
Ad trans go stage shift kit to your list , deep pan and filter
It depends how much and how far you want go, it starts costing once you start
I'm sure Ron will pipe in on the cam shaft, unless you already have it , there's lots of new grinds better suited to today's modern crap fuels, you could buy heads , headers, intake , exhaust , carby , and ad the bolt ons unless motor smokey ,

[66Charger440]

Thank you very much for the reply.  I haven't purchased anything yet and am not locked into anything above.  My research so far got me what I posted above, but I need lots of help so I came to the experts.   I want my plan completely in place before I start to purchase/build.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Josh, welcome to the site  

The combo looks fine....cam & converter are well matched. The RPM intake is an excellent choice with a heavy car...dual plane will make more bottom end power. Proform 750dp street series carb is also a good choice ; better throttle response when the venturies are not to large.  

I would do a wet compression test to determine if the weaker cylinders have ring seal issues or valve issues. If the cranking compression increases with a squirt of oil in the cylinders you know it's time for a set of rings and possibly new pistons depending on wear.

It would be good to know how far those pistons sit below the deck....this allows us to calculate static compression and plan accordingly. With iron heads and open chambers you want to keep the static compression in the 9:1 range if pump gas is the goal.  

I'm not a fan of the Pertronix stuff...too many folks have had issues with reliability, or lack thereof. You also need a distributor with adjustable mechanical advance to dial in the ignition curve. If you don't have control over the advance mechanism ; tuning will be limited and you will be leaving lots of power and drivability on the table. I allways suggest trying things out before condemning any part so that's certainly an acceptable course of action. If you don't like it you can allways replace later, like many have done.

TTI is very nice stuff ; for your application the 1 7/8 header with a 2.5in x-pipe exhaust is fine....that's easily good to 550hp so even if you build something stouter down the line you won't need to upgrade.

The Edelbrock heads are definately worth it and if you have to rebuild a set of OEM heads you'll be 3/4 of the way there on cost....and you'll still have a 40 yr old casting that won't make anywhere near the power a set of E-heads will make. The weight reduction is also a nice bonus...especially on a heavy car.



Ron

[66Charger440]

fy468rtse, would the 2 qt increase pan from Summit be big enough, or do I need to go for the 4 qt. increase in pan size?  The car won't be raced.

[66Charger440]

Ron,

Thanks for your expertise.  Which FireCore distributor would you suggest for me?  Do I need a new coil too?

Looking at the Edelbrock Heads on Summit, the EStreet 5093 are $1509.50/pr and RPM 60929 are $1579/pr.  Should I run the RPM's for $70/pr difference?  What would need to be done OOTB, before they are installed?  Valves checked?  Do these heads require machining to run the Voodoo springs like the OE heads?  Or should I run Comp 911's?  I want to do this the right way.

Thanks for your help!

[justcruisin]

Before deciding on a head you should do a wet compression check as advised then pull a head to see what compression pistons you have. If you decide to keep the short block as is the 75cc e-streets may be a better choice - depending on the compression height of your current pistons, although that may limit your choices down the track if you decide to upgrade.

[fy469rtse]

2 Qt , is fine , gets you a better pan with drain plug , great addition for fluid changes, get the billet filter extension to put filter down deeper in pan
Add an additional trans cooler , extra fluid will be a big help
Like Ron said , do the wet compression test to gauge condition of your rings , do know what oil pressure your getting etc, you might have a healthy engine and you could bolt on heads etc change cam to wake it up, headers etc

[66Charger440]

Okay. I will do the wet compression test.    Same procedure I did before. Charged battery, WOT, how much oil do I put in?  Do I need to turn the engine over a few revs for the oil to completely lube?  I assume regular engine oil?  Thanks again, and please let me know the proper steps for the wet compression test. I will do it Saturday and report back. I appreciate all the help and patience, I'm learning. 

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

Thanks for your expertise.  Which FireCore distributor would you suggest for me?  Do I need a new coil too?

Looking at the Edelbrock Heads on Summit, the E-Street 5093 are $1509.50/pr and RPM 60929 are $1579/pr.  Should I run the RPM's for $70/pr difference?  What would need to be done OOTB, before they are installed?  Valves checked?  Do these heads require machining to run the Voodoo springs like the OE heads?  Or should I run Comp 911's?  I want to do this the right way.

Thanks for your help!

Josh,

The E-street/RPM heads have good parts so if you install a VooDoo cam you won't need to change anything. The E-head valvesprings work great with hyd cams and many flat tappet solid cams. I would suggest having the heads looked over at the machine shop. Sometimes the valves are too tight and the guides will need a quick hone job. Pushrods should also be upgraded to allow for the increased spring pressures. Mancini sells stock replacement HD chromemoly pushrods designed for use with 300lb + spring pressures. The stock rockers & shafts are fine as long as they are in good shape.

The pistons in your engine will determine which head is the better option. It's possible that the smaller 75cc head will be preferable based on your piston to deck measurement. We won't know until you pull a head and measure.

As for the distributor ; The Billet Ready to Run would be my choice. No ballist, no external ECU or extra wiring....makes for a very clean installation. This system runs on a constant 12v power feed for increased spark energy so the coil needs to be capable. Firecore has several coil options and ignition wire sets to complete the installation from top to bottom.


Ron

[66Charger440]

I called PTC yesterday to see about an 11 in converter and he said he wasn't sure they had any 11 in cores left and he'd have to get back to me.  He also said he could build me a real tight 9.5 in converter and accomplish the same thing.  I haven't heard back from him yet.  Is this a good route, or should I call elsewhere?  Thanks.

[66Charger440]

Ron,

That helps a ton!  Thank you.   Should I still do the wet test if I'm going to pull the head to check piston height?  I assume so, but if that'll eliminate a step, it wouldn't be all bad.

Oh, and as the plan comes together, I'll be ordering FireCore from you.

Thanks again,
Josh

[firefighter3931]

Okay. I will do the wet compression test.    Same procedure I did before. Charged battery, WOT, how much oil do I put in?  Do I need to turn the engine over a few revs for the oil to completely lube?  I assume regular engine oil?  Thanks again, and please let me know the proper steps for the wet compression test. I will do it Saturday and report back. I appreciate all the help and patience, I'm learning. 

Josh,

Pull all the plugs before the comp check and open the carb to wide open before doing the compression test....this will give you the most accurate readings. Check the weak cylinders again "dry" to get a baseline number.

A couple of squirts with oil is all you need...it doesn't take much oil. Use regular engine oil (Not Synthetic) and spin it over for 2 seconds to coat the rings/cylinder wall. If the cranking number increases then you know that ring seal is the issue. If the number stays the same then the valves are leaking.


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

That helps a ton!  Thank you.   Should I still do the wet test if I'm going to pull the head to check piston height?  I assume so, but if that'll eliminate a step, it wouldn't be all bad.

Oh, and as the plan comes together, I'll be ordering FireCore from you.

Thanks again,
Josh

Yep, do the compression tests before removing the head....we need to know what condition the ring seal is at. Based on what you find you might want to freshen up the shortblock with rings & bearings or maybe leave as is. If the pistons are way down in the hole that may also determine which way you'll go so there are lots of options. First things first....lets see what shape the ring seal is in. 

As for the converter ; i would stay with an 11in unit. If PTC doesn't have any 11in cores then try Coan or Turbo Action.


Ron

[66Charger440]

Okay.  I did dry on all cylinders and wet on low psi holes and a couple others just because. 

My findings dry then wet by cylinder:
1. 125 psi - 137 psi          2. 130 psi
3. 110 psi - 120 psi          4. 120 psi
5. 125 psi - 130 psi          6. 92 psi - 95 psi
7. 125 psi                        8. 115 psi - 121 psi

I was sure #6 was going to increase significantly with the oil.  I'm sure I got plenty of oil in each wet test and turned the motor over at least 2 seconds to lube cylinder.  I used a battery charger the whole time and carb was wide open.

The motor doesn't smoke on startup and doesn't use oil (the little amount it gets driven). 

[BSB67]

I most likely will never have this car on the strip, but want a very strong low to mid performing car for the street, and done right.  I doubt this car will see much/any 6000+ rpm, but want it to pull hard.

Questions:

1) what does your "done right" budget look like?
2) what is you schedule to get it done?

It is difficult to know what it will take to meet your expectations.  If you have 200 hp now, you might be quite pleased with 300 hp.  IMO, it is a little much to build from scratch a hp motor to get more power on a street car without a specific performance goal unless you really have a lot of disposable income, which you might.  

You might want to take a systematic approach over time, especially if you are a techie kind of guy and you want to learn as you go.  You will then get better focused on what you want in the end, and what it will take to get there.  Otherwise you will end-up with as many conflicting suggestions as people that you have asked.  Also, you get to keep the car on the road as you make incremental changes to help keep the fun meter/interest on high.

In spite of the short block, you can probably add a lot of power (all relative, right?) w/ heads, cam, exhaust, and induction.  That alone will be several thousand $,.....done right.

[66Charger440]

BSB67,

1) Done right budget not including exhaust or transmission is up to $6000 right now.  I can save more if necessary.  This would go toward carb, intake, cam kit, push rods, heads, pistons (if necessary), machine work (if necessary), etc.
2) I want to get tranny done soon so I can just drive her.  I want my complete plan in place first so I can buy the correct torque converter before doing the transmission.  Timeline on the rest?  I would say I will do at least the carb and intake soon, but according to which direction we decide with low cylinder pressure, budget will dictate.  Having a plan in place is the most important to me.
3) My expectations?  It's not to brag I have 500+ HP or to get a particular ET.  If I had to put a number on HP I would say around 450-475 at the flywheel (300 to ground?) with 500+ TQ, run on pump gas, and not have to wind it high to do it (5000-5500 tops).
4) Done right to me means not bolting on parts to mask a problem (ie low cylinder pressure) that I will likely have to address again in the next year or two.  If machine work "should" be done now to bring up compression and that means I wait on heads, or TTI system for months or a year, I don't mind.  Starting with a quality base (internals) is what I want to "do right."

Thanks for your help and I hope I've answered your questions. 

Take care,
Josh

[firefighter3931]

Okay.  I did dry on all cylinders and wet on low psi holes and a couple others just because.  

My findings dry then wet by cylinder:
1. 125 psi - 137 psi          2. 130 psi
3. 110 psi - 120 psi          4. 120 psi
5. 125 psi - 130 psi          6. 92 psi - 95 psi
7. 125 psi                        8. 115 psi - 121 psi

I was sure #6 was going to increase significantly with the oil.  I'm sure I got plenty of oil in each wet test and turned the motor over at least 2 seconds to lube cylinder.  I used a battery charger the whole time and carb was wide open.

The motor doesn't smoke on startup and doesn't use oil (the little amount it gets driven).  

Josh,

Based on the compression test results it looks like the shortblock is in descent shape. The wet test on #6 is showing that the low compression reading is not ring seal but rather a valve seal issue. The highest cylinder is only making 130 psi so that also means it's a low compression engine or it has a large cam installed that is bleeding off cylinder pressure.

The only way to know for sure is to pull the head and measure piston to deck and see how far those pistons are in the hole.  

To make good power in the range you're looking for and have it live a long and happy life (reliability) means new pistons and possibly rods. The aftermarket rods are relatively cheap these days and will take a lot more abuse than a factory rod so that's a no brainer. Lots of good choices with pistons as well. It's pretty easy to build a 10:1 engine with aluminum heads and tight quench that will make your target power numbers.

I don't think you'll hit 500hp with a set of E-heads on a 440 build....it'll need a bit more RPM. That being said, shifting at 5800-6000 is no problem with a balanced rotating assembly using quality components.


Ron

[66Charger440]

Ron,

So what I'm thinking is I will put the Performer RPM intake and Proform 750 DP on right away.  Then I can rebuild tranny with 11" torque converter (2400 stall) with deep pan.  That way I can make sure kickdown linkage is setup correct when tranny is rebuilt.  Then I will take my car to a friend's shop and pull heads off to measure how far pistons are below deck (can't do this for about 2 weeks anyway).  No matter how far down the pistons are or the new piston choice, that's not going to change the cam, intake, or carb choice, correct?  Which means that Proform 750 DP, RPM intake, and 2400 stall converter is still the choice?  I don't want to get the cart before the horse. 

I will likely need a dropbase air cleaner.  K&N 1" drop enough?  What throttle linkage and fuel line accessories should I purchase for the carb swap with the dropbase?

I appreciate the help again.

Josh

[BSB67]

BSB67,

1) Done right budget not including exhaust or transmission is up to $6000 right now.  I can save more if necessary.  This would go toward carb, intake, cam kit, push rods, heads, pistons (if necessary), machine work (if necessary), etc.
2) I want to get tranny done soon so I can just drive her.  I want my complete plan in place first so I can buy the correct torque converter before doing the transmission.  Timeline on the rest?  I would say I will do at least the carb and intake soon, but according to which direction we decide with low cylinder pressure, budget will dictate.  Having a plan in place is the most important to me.
3) My expectations?  It's not to brag I have 500+ HP or to get a particular ET.  If I had to put a number on HP I would say around 450-475 at the flywheel (300 to ground?) with 500+ TQ, run on pump gas, and not have to wind it high to do it (5000-5500 tops).
4) Done right to me means not bolting on parts to mask a problem (ie low cylinder pressure) that I will likely have to address again in the next year or two.  If machine work "should" be done now to bring up compression and that means I wait on heads, or TTI system for months or a year, I don't mind.  Starting with a quality base (internals) is what I want to "do right."

Thanks for your help and I hope I've answered your questions.  

Take care,
Josh

Good.  Sounds like you have the start to a plan and a decent get started budget.  You won't be able to do the short block rebuild along with everything else with what you have now.  But you are not too far off.  

If you want to keep the car running, don't pull the heads.  It really does not matter exactly where the pistons are.  We can guess they are 0.090" or deeper.  What difference does it make?  Is there some dimension that would cause your next step to change?   To do it "right" you'll need a zero deck piston, i.e complete short block rebuild, and we know you don't have that.

Consider this:
Start with your tranny and exhaust like you said.
Move to the carb and intake if you want, or hold on those and also get the cam and E-street head and get the chamber volume down to 72 cc or so  and have them worked by a professional.  Add your cam and upgraded valve train.  After you get the stuff purchased and back from the machine shop, you can do the swap quickly.  You'll probably put 100 hp in the motor and it will be off the road for a week or two.  You've also just spent a bunch of the $6,000.

Plan on saving and rebuilding the short block.  Get the commonly available 12 cc ish dish piston with a 2.06" ish compression height and put it under the top end you have already purchased and end up with a CR in the low 10s.  If you do it this way, you can purchase a block and crank ( the only thing you will save from your current engine ) and build it while you are having fun driving the car.  

 

[firefighter3931]

  Good advice 

Take small steps for now and do little things so you can still enjoy driving the car 

Next winter you can pull it apart and do what needs to be done.


Ron

[NHCharger]

I will likely need a dropbase air cleaner.  K&N 1" drop enough?  What throttle linkage and fuel line accessories should I purchase for the carb swap with the dropbase?

I appreciate the help again.

Josh

Josh, I just finished a 440 build with Ron's help. I also used the Proform with an Eddy intake. You will need a dropbase air cleaner. I went with the Edelbrock and still had a problem. Had to cut 1/4" off the bottom where it sits on the carb (it still clears my throttle and kickdown linkage). There is an Holley adapter recommended for the throttle linkage, but I managed to adjust the throttle linkage so I didn't need it.
I went with this fuel line set up for the carb.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aed-60945

[66Charger440]

[/quote]

Josh, I just finished a 440 build with Ron's help. I also used the Proform with an Eddy intake. You will need a dropbase air cleaner. I went with the Edelbrock and still had a problem. Had to cut 1/4" off the bottom where it sits on the carb (it still clears my throttle and kickdown linkage). There is an Holley adapter recommended for the throttle linkage, but I managed to adjust the throttle linkage so I didn't need it.
I went with this fuel line set up for the carb.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aed-60945
[/quote]

Thanks Brian.  That's a big help.

[66Charger440]

Ron and BSB67,

Thanks for the help so far.  I will rebuild the transmission and start with the Edelbrock RPM and Proform 750 DP.  Later, when I get the heads off and measure how far the pistons are down in the hole we can resume the talks then.  I will likely hold off on purchasing heads until then so I know what cc chamber to buy and what work needs to be done on them.  I will likely do the headers when I do the cam, heads, and possibly pistons just for convenience.  Let me know if I'm missing anything.  I appreciate all who have helped so far.  More to come!



Thanks again,
Josh

[66Charger440]

BSB67,

What should a realistic short block rebuild consist of and what rough budget would I need to shoot for?

Thanks!

[BSB67]

BSB67,

What should a realistic short block rebuild consist of and what rough budget would I need to shoot for?

Thanks!

I don't want to guess as most people thing I'm way high.  A few will say I'm low.  I do tend to buy better parts, but I'm no stranger to off-shore out sourced parts either.  Kinda comes back around to an individuals belief as to what is "doing it right".  Also, I try to look at the all in cost that I suspect others don't include.  For me, I see it as the cost difference between doing nothing, and doing the rebuild, which includes all the little stuff that adds up.

Here is an example:
Figure three oil changes with filters, two sets of plugs, new throttle/spring brackets. degreasers, lubricants, misc. nuts, bolts and studs, belts, hoses, fuel and air filters, gauges, misc. gaskets, sealants, paint, hose clamps, antifreeze, thermostat, new sending units..........  It really adds up.  These are not necessarily tied to the building of the short block, but these things will likely be purchased along the way.  Buy the way, how's you radiator?,  drive shaft? Sure grip?  You see my point.

Second, there is always mission creep.  If you have not already thought it,  you will:  Stroke it.  Or, for a couple more bucks I can get Diamond pistons, and they weight 70 grams less, or, file fit rings might be better,.... as examples.  All of those nice packaged kits are a good value, but your "doing it right" might reveal that the kits do not have all of the parts you want, or may include parts you don't want.

I think a lot of people step into this and become overwhelmed financially, project drags on, time passes, interest fade, life changes.  This is why I recommend a stepped approach, keep the fun meter on high and the car on the road as much as possible.

I have a spreadsheet around here somewhere.  If I find it, I'll send it to you.

[fy469rtse]

Good advice , keep us updated on your fixes, and the differences it makes
We like photos

[66Charger440]

I tried to post some pictures.  They were too large.  Any advice besides make them smaller?