Rant about flippers

[Dino]

I think its all about supply and demand, 6 months ago if you searched for a 70 charger  for example there were about 10 on ebay + others on "cars online" and "autabuy" . now there are 4 on ebay a couple  on "cars online" and a few in" autabuy ". it has gone from a choice from lets say 17 cars to a choice between 10 cars  ,demand for this model has pushed the prices up 2-3 K  in just 6 months  . on the other hand 3rd gen Plymouths seem to have stayed at the same price or dropped a bit   
you also have a lot of overseas buyers wanting to get into the hobby ,this is where the "undesirable element" comes into play  people like "American muscle cars"  listing a 71 gtx with a vin sticker off another car    someone that doesn't know how to do the homework will get burned 

still say we need a sticky  with bad dealers etc listed so that if someone has gone to the trouble of googleing their name (dealership) it will come up

[Cooter]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

Yeah but who wouldn't do this?  I could care less about Chevelles but I know the market and if I can be the first one to show up with $10K on a $15k car then what's the problem?  If I was filthy rich I wouldn't waste my time, but since I'm not, should pass on picking up an honest 5 grand?

Every used car dealer in the country is a "flipper"

We all know how used car dealers are viewed. It'll just be sweet when flippers are trusted just the same.
almost everybody I meet today at shows only ask about my junk because they wanna hear how much potential money they "could" make.
sad day indeed. Instead of car shows/cruise nights, maybe they should call them what's it worth shows/nights??
Used to be a time when the CARS were the draw, not what some asshats said they are worth on TV.

[Ghoste]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

[Cooter]

True power lies not in the truth sadly, but the ability to spread misinformation and because you have an audience that agrees, it becomes "law".
That's how those two "Christine" clones got to be "official", the three or four that asked questions where simply discredited as "haters". As many times I have been here on certain subjects. Does it mean the lone one who disagrees is wrong automatically? Or does it mean there are a whole lot of stupid people willing to believe sh*t because it's what everybody else is doing??
Unfortunately, we live in a media driven society now. Common sense need not apply. Just believe cause everybody else is....

Sadly, I cannot believe how many people in this very hobby are just so enamored with the stupid rich and the dumbass spending habits of afore mentioned.  People are fascinated with insane money for musclecars.  Just today on FB, one guy was willing to buy a new Charger/Dart/whatever, simply due to over inflated musclecar prices.

[polywideblock]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

was that show "whats my car worth " by any chance   

[ACUDANUT]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

I agree !!

[Ghoste]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

was that show "whats my car worth " by any chance   

It would be unethical for me to confirm that.

[polywideblock]

 Lorraine McKinley  is hot     

[Challenger340]

I can't see hating the "Flippers".... they are merely just participating in free market capitalism with supply and demand.
But if you do....
Get equally pissed off at the "maroons" PAYING those prices ?

[Troy]

There are lots of guys who buy a car and then sell to someone who offers them a much higher price than they paid. Are they "flippers"? Or is it all about intent? I have made money on almost every classic car I've sold (or I'd likely still have them in my garage). Of course, I have improved most of them while I owned them as well so I was smart about making improvements that would increase value more than they cost. I also generally only sell when I find something I want more. I know a lot of guys who buy poorly running cars, give them a tuneup, and make $1,000. Not classics but they use their mechanical skills and take advantage of opportunities. If the market wouldn't support the selling price then there'd be a lot of cars staying with their owners.

I believe the original rant is about people who buy, do nothing, then immediately sell for a profit. I see nothing wrong with it. Funny thing is, if the car were listed at a price higher than what you were willing to pay, but a "flipper" negotiates a better deal then sells it for your price then why would you be mad? You could still purchase the car at your price BUT also had the same opportunity to get it for less! Flippers, in general, are better negotiators and are more likely to make a profit. It's a LOT of work though! To sell at a higher price than normal the flipper needs to expand/change the market, be a great salesman, or buy low (likely all three). Flippers have do deal with buyers all the time - something I have a strong dislike of.

So, basically, I'm not entirely concerned with the money involved. Cars are expensive! I do have issues with people who tell sob stories (lies mostly) to negotiate a cheap price OR to pry a car/part away from an owner who is unwilling to sell. This is very common and very shady. We've all heard something similar to "I want this car because my dad had one just like it. Unfortunately I can't pay what you're asking." A few weeks later you see your pride and joy listed for $10-15k more than what you let it go for. When asked, there's always a sob story involved: "my wife lost her job" or something similar. If it were really an emergency the price wouldn't have gone up!

Thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - of businesses in this country make all their profits from the resale of used goods. While it may be a "hobby" for some, nearly all hobbies are supported by businesses. Unless you're whittling wood. Even then you likely bought a knife from someone - or a sharpening stone if you're using an heirloom.

If the prices of these cars hadn't risen significantly there would have never been a market for reproduction parts. It wasn't long ago that we were fighting over a dwindling supply of NOS and nice junkyard parts. So, while the cost to buy a car seems like it has gone up, the cost to build/finish a car has gone down drastically. Some girl ran a stop sign and crashed into my first 68 Charger in the mid 80s. Even then, I had to scour the junk yards for a fender and front bumper. The situation was certainly not any better 20 years later when I started buying old cars again!

Troy

[Mytur Binsdirti]

I have made money on almost every classic car I've sold

So, you're one of them.....

[ACUDANUT]

I always lose money on cars I sell. Does that make you feel better.? 

[Mytur Binsdirti]

The beef here seems to be mainly with hobbyists that flips classic cars, but any legitimate dealership that buys and sells cars would also fall under the same category. But back to the hobbyist..... What's the problem with a person who has enough money to buy a particular car and has the foresight to see an opportunity and make a few bucks from it? If all parties involved are happy with the transaction(s), what business is it of anyone else? 

[polywideblock]

think this is more about how much the costs of our "hobby" have risen in the last 12 months 

[bakerhillpins]

I always lose money on cars I sell. Does that make you feel better.?  

I suspect that's because you put money into them... not something that most flippers do.

Lorraine McKinley  is hot    

OMG you are not kidding.     But the outfits that they put her in on that show.  

[TUFCAT]

Lorraine's a true car chick who loves cars from what I hear, ....plus she owns/drives a Harley.

[myk]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

[Drache]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

[Old Moparz]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

[myk]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

If any "one" person or company could be held accountable for buying "all" or "most" of the classic cars in the market and then selling these cars for an inflated value then "maybe" something unethical could be indicated, but until then all we have are private sellers and small businesses that are trying to make a profit buy purchasing a car, maybe two or three at a time and then selling it for a profit.  That's not criminal, that's just the free market system.

As for my jack and coke example, yes I have overhead costs but it doesn't change the fact that I procure those products for pennies on the dollar compared to what I sell it for.  Now, if I were to hoard all of the jack and coke and THEN inflate the prices that would/should be considered unethical, but frankly I don't see Coca Cola and Jack Daniels just selling to me.  Again, I'm just another entity in a sea of entities that is buying and selling with the intention of making as much profit as I can, just like with classic cars and their flippers.

Now do "I" personally wish the craziness with classic cars would die out?  Sure I do.  I don't like the idea of paying any more for these cars and their over-priced parts any more than you do, but that's just selfishness on my part; the market is what it is....

[Drache]

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

How so? If I OWN the stores I'm not Price Fixing with competitors.

[bakerhillpins]

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

How so? If I OWN the stores I'm not Price Fixing with competitors.

Actually, at first you owned a monopoly, and then well, if they are charging the same then that's probably the market unless you guys are colluding or can't sell it and it goes flat. Then you got nothing for your money. Kinda like letting them rot in a field. 

[1974dodgecharger]

I want to FLIP cars myself.....where do I start?

[Cooter]

Nobody seems to mind until they see a roach of a Charger selling for $4k.
I hear screaming and ranting about how there's nothing there, how can people be so crazy, not worth it, etc.

Wonder how/when a rust bucket 68 4speed car became so valuable, when just 20 short years ago they were barely worth crush money/time.....
I don't think anybody has a problem with selling for more than you paid....everybody has done it. I think the real problem is that being tge entire reason your in the hobby at all. Your driving up prices and setting markets because one idiot was willing to overpay.
all of a sudden that's the new 'market'?

It should be about the cars and not about the money.
no problem, as I was here before the flippers, I was here while they raped the hobby, and I'll be here picking up tge pieces long after the greedy have moved on to the next best thing.

[Ghoste]

There is the point to consider that if the cars were still worthless, the reproduction and aftermarket parts industry would never have given us the support they do.