Rant about flippers

[Old Moparz]

Flippers don't bother me, it's the liars, scammers & scumbags that do.

I've bought a few cars & parts over the years that I was able to make a few bucks from. When I scrounged around in junkyards for things I've needed I would occasionally buy other things to resell if the price was right. I once needed a small block 4V linkage & bracket set up, & found a car that had it along with an aluminum intake manifold that I didn't need. I bought all of it for $35, used the linkage & bracket set up & resold the intake for $35. Nice to get what I needed for basically no out of pocket cost.

One time I was selling a rim blow steering wheel at a swap meet cheap, for $50. Someone I knew asked about it, made an offer of half, saying he was going to put it on his own car. Since I knew the guy I let it him have it cheap & still made some money from it. About 3 weeks later at another swap meet I saw the wheel I sold him at his vending space for $150. Was I mad? Sort of, but I was more disappointed in the fact that I was taken advantage of thinking I was doing someone a favor.    

[toocheaptosmoke]

Flippers don't bother me, it's the liars, scammers & scumbags that do.

I've bought a few cars & parts over the years that I was able to make a few bucks from. When I scrounged around in junkyards for things I've needed I would occasionally buy other things to resell if the price was right. I once needed a small block 4V linkage & bracket set up, & found a car that had it along with an aluminum intake manifold that I didn't need. I bought all of it for $35, used the linkage & bracket set up & resold the intake for $35. Nice to get what I needed for basically no out of pocket cost.

One time I was selling a rim blow steering wheel at a swap meet cheap, for $50. Someone I knew asked about it, made an offer of half, saying he was going to put it on his own car. Since I knew the guy I let it him have it cheap & still made some money from it. About 3 weeks later at another swap meet I saw the wheel I sold him at his vending space for $150. Was I mad? Sort of, but I was more disappointed in the fact that I was taken advantage of thinking I was doing someone a favor.    

That aspect of "flipping" is what seems to be the most infuriating.   In any hobby, if you're into something long enough parts sometimes start finding you.  Plenty of good guys find deals, re-sell to make a buck, sometimes just break even, or maybe give someone else a deal.   It's generally not done in a way to burn bridges.  It's the a-holes that canive and lie just to make a buck that do...

[Cooter]

Envy of flippers has nothing to do with it, that's just way off base.  Disdain comes to mind however.


It's really that the prices of this hobby don't have to be so high, but flippers inflate everything.... I'll guess 30%.  I don't know exactly the total sum that the Mopar hobby is worth each year, so I'll look at $1m slice.  I would suggest that for every $1 million in activity in the hobby the reality is $700k of activity + $300k profits taken by flippers.  I'll further guess that $200k of that $300k profit leaves the hobby and never returns.  We all make up for it by paying a little more.  Basically, too much profit within a system causes inflation.

It's just like Wall Street traders making money every time your money moves around.  There is not really any care that they are skimming off the top of your retirement fund.  A little here, a little there.  Traders exercising 'profit taking' is a maneuver to take your investment and turn that money in to their profit.  They take that money out of the system.  They deserve to get paid, sure, but the scale that they push the system and their own egos is over the top.

The attitude of 'F U I got mine' seems to translate well between Wall Street and flippers.

I think, by definition, the hobbyists here earn money elsewhere and bring that money in to the hobby for the sake of doing it, for the love of craft, for sentimental value.  Not for the sake of profit.  Those expecting to make their money within the hobby are driving the price of everything related to the hobby up while financing their own projects.  And there are those that show up in this hobby realm and make a deal and get out - and that money is gone from the hobby forever.  Finally, as there are many hobbyists which bring a 'money pit' in to this hobby space and lose money - but not enough to balance out the prices going up.


And just to be clear - I would not define anything adding value to a car as flipping.  A $1000 car sitting in a barn that is found, negotiated, towed, cleaned up, advertised, and sold has had value added.  It's subjective, but maybe a seller listing it at $1800-2000 is okay if the car is brought to the market and added to the pool of cars in the hobby - that's between the buyer and seller to work out.  If you've garaged a $5,000 Hemi Charger for the last 30 years and now want to sell it for $100k - go for it, you were a caretaker of the car and deserve to get paid.  Not everyone that made a decent profit is a flipper.

'Flipping' to me implies intent to resell with a high markup without adding value.  

Well said, but remember,it's a hard sell when many are closet flippers and want that new Viper.

[69charger2002]

Envy of flippers has nothing to do with it, that's just way off base.  Disdain comes to mind however.


It's really that the prices of this hobby don't have to be so high, but flippers inflate everything.... I'll guess 30%.  I don't know exactly the total sum that the Mopar hobby is worth each year, so I'll look at $1m slice.  I would suggest that for every $1 million in activity in the hobby the reality is $700k of activity + $300k profits taken by flippers.  I'll further guess that $200k of that $300k profit leaves the hobby and never returns.  We all make up for it by paying a little more.  Basically, too much profit within a system causes inflation.

It's just like Wall Street traders making money every time your money moves around.  There is not really any care that they are skimming off the top of your retirement fund.  A little here, a little there.  Traders exercising 'profit taking' is a maneuver to take your investment and turn that money in to their profit.  They take that money out of the system.  They deserve to get paid, sure, but the scale that they push the system and their own egos is over the top.

The attitude of 'F U I got mine' seems to translate well between Wall Street and flippers.

I think, by definition, the hobbyists here earn money elsewhere and bring that money in to the hobby for the sake of doing it, for the love of craft, for sentimental value.  Not for the sake of profit.  Those expecting to make their money within the hobby are driving the price of everything related to the hobby up while financing their own projects.  And there are those that show up in this hobby realm and make a deal and get out - and that money is gone from the hobby forever.  Finally, as there are many hobbyists which bring a 'money pit' in to this hobby space and lose money - but not enough to balance out the prices going up.


And just to be clear - I would not define anything adding value to a car as flipping.  A $1000 car sitting in a barn that is found, negotiated, towed, cleaned up, advertised, and sold has had value added.  It's subjective, but maybe a seller listing it at $1800-2000 is okay if the car is brought to the market and added to the pool of cars in the hobby - that's between the buyer and seller to work out.  If you've garaged a $5,000 Hemi Charger for the last 30 years and now want to sell it for $100k - go for it, you were a caretaker of the car and deserve to get paid.  Not everyone that made a decent profit is a flipper.

'Flipping' to me implies intent to resell with a high markup without adding value.  

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

[bill440rt]

50 bucks never killed anybody!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-R3YUy9Wg

Even Toby thinks this is the car for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REa2DDzChGM

[Drache]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

[Dreamcar]

I tend to think that flippers are not the ones driving prices up, the demand is driving prices up. Lots of people are want an old mopar that's in great shape and driveable. Not everyone has the time, money, and skill to build their own car. But, they have the right to enjoy the "driving" side of the hobby. So, they are more than willing pay someone else who took the time and made the effort to improve a car that needs work. However, that guy or "flipper" needs to eat, so yes, he's going to charge someone what they are are willing to pay. The more the buyers are willing to pay, the more the prices go up.

If you are a seller, flipper or not, it's YOUR responsibility to research what the market is willing to pay, and if you sell too low, then that's your fault. If you're a buyer and can't find anything for the price you want to pay, maybe your expectations as to what a car is worth is wrong.

And, don't forget about location location location...some areas have lots of good old mopars, some don't. The more rare  they are in that area, the higher the price.

[69charger2002]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

I see where you're coming from, but that's not really what's at work here. A year or 2 ago I thought 68-70 charger prices were  a bit down from previous years. In the last 6 months they have really rebounded to-in my opinion- higher than 2006 prices. This is not because a group of dealers or flippers ran out and bought them all last year at cheaper prices. Its simply that the demand is going up for them and the supply isn't getting any greater. I have kept a 68-70 charger ebay search saved for years on my laptop. These days hardly ever are there more than 20-25 68-70's for sale at a given time(there are only 14 right now). Couple years ago, there were many weeks with 40-50 at times for sale at once. This a huge factor in what current prices are reflecting. Of course there are a few that are "inflated" because a dealer bought it and marked it up. But a car is only worth what it sells for. As said before if 9 people think it's not a good deal at $20k, but one person comes along and buys it for $20k, well it's worth $20k today. It doesn't matter if it's a flipper that bought it or not. If the car is worth 20k, it's worth $20k. If a flipper buys it for $20k thinking he can squeeze $25k out of it, and does.. Well that just means the first 9 people missed the boat. Not that the flipper is ruining the hobby by falsely driving prices up. The market will only bear what the supply and demand allows, same with anything.

[ACUDANUT]

Every person that ever sold a car is a flipper, no one sell to lose money on the deal. I don't have to tell you how much i paid for it, if you view the car and think its worth the asking price, you buy it.

Really, so if I sell my old and tired 06 Uplander (that I bought new) I'm a flipper ?

[ODZKing]

You know ... Flipper

[cdr]

this should get this    if it does,, SORRY, we can just let the GOBMENT control the mark up prices the flippers want to sell a car for,that'll  fix the problem. 

[ws23rt]

I can't see flippers controlling the price of our cars unless they bought most of what is for sale and became that old hoarder.

Even then as they try to sell at a high price the cars would only move when the prices matched the demand.

There are many that want to own these cars and would when the price is right.

[RallyeMike]

Flipping = good old American can-do capitalism.

[Old Moparz]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

Drache, if you actually think that groups of guys with lots of money who don't own hand tools to improve old cars are gathering in some back room with secret, collusive plans to buy clusters of old Chargers cheap just to drive up prices & make a huge profit, then you are more delusional than I thought possible.    (I'm kidding, so relax)

I have to agree, if people weren't willing to pay top dollar, sometimes sight unseen for junk & sometimes way more than they should, then there would be reasonably priced cars all over for hobbyists. The flippers would have to go find the next big investment to cash in on. 

[Drache]

Drache, if you actually think that groups of guys with lots of money who don't own hand tools to improve old cars are gathering in some back room with secret, collusive plans to buy clusters of old Chargers cheap just to drive up prices & make a huge profit, then you are more delusional than I thought possible.    (I'm kidding, so relax)

I met three of them. Friends who aren't just buying Chargers, but any mopar they can. All they do is polish the cars up with turtle wax and relist them for $5000 profit or more.

They aren't planning on driving up the costs, but they are certainly helping. I've given offers and a couple mopars in the past couple weeks and more than a couple point out mopars these three are selling stating their cars are in the same shape as those cars so they aren't going to lower their price.

[miller time]

i flipped a jeep from $1100 for a decent non running jeep and parts jeep, to about $2400, but i got 1 running and driving and scrapped the other, if you get a good deal, pass it on and make some jingle for you bill fold, but c'mon if you "rape" someone over a car they absolutely desire, i dont think you deserve to get a good deal on Anything again, especially something they "really realy want", ya know karmas a bi ch, especially on your wallet, but i bought my "basket case" charger because of a wanted add i put on craigslist saying i had $10k and the guy called wanting 8.5k (mabey he only wanted 5k before he saw my add), told him id throw another 1k in to have to mostly put back together, the right deals can make you richer then you wanted
but to this day i thank God my charger found me, even though its a dang money pit, ijs i flipped a coin to see if id sell it and the coin landed leaning against a wall, almost vertical, sometimes overpriced and destiny play the same tune

[ACUDANUT]

This whole world is about flipping something for a profit.  Look at our tv shows: Counting Cars, American Pickers, Pawn Stars, Storage Hunters ect. They buy cheap and triple their money.

[Homerr]

....

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

I don't think this example is flipping.  There is profit being had, yes, but if they were relisted at $8k each I would call flipping.  Anywhere in between could be a gray area.

Also, this example addresses supply - 5 Chargers being owned by one person.  That's a decent amount of Chargers to be put out on the market.  Now, your example presumes that the 5 are going to separate owners each owning 1 Charger.  Those individuals are more likely to start restoring the cars and being part of the hobby vs. 1 owner with 5 cars to restore.  I'm presuming at this price point they are in need of restoration.  But even for drivers at a higher price point: more Chargers = more Charger love.


As for a conspiracy of Mopar flippers.... I'm more skeptical.  However, in the Northwest here there is the well known guy in Portland (Mike iirc, never met him but seen plenty of his ads) that has pretty much tried to lock up the Charger market (and any other Mopar I think) for anything within a few hundred miles in the sub-$10k market.  He's driven prices up locally here in Washington and Oregon all by himself by a few thousand dollars.


Also:

[Homerr]

i flipped a jeep from $1100 for a decent non running jeep and parts jeep, to about $2400, but i got 1 running and driving and scrapped the other, if you get a good deal, pass it on and make some jingle for you bill fold, but c'mon if you "rape" someone over a car they absolutely desire, i dont think you deserve to get a good deal on Anything again, especially something they "really realy want", ya know karmas a bi ch, especially on your wallet, but i bought my "basket case" charger because of a wanted add i put on craigslist saying i had $10k and the guy called wanting 8.5k (mabey he only wanted 5k before he saw my add), told him id throw another 1k in to have to mostly put back together, the right deals can make you richer then you wanted
but to this day i thank God my charger found me, even though its a dang money pit, ijs i flipped a coin to see if id sell it and the coin landed leaning against a wall, almost vertical, sometimes overpriced and destiny play the same tune

I wouldn't call your Jeep example flipping either.  A non-running car is worth way less than a runner, and anyone without a trailer pretty much isn't even a potential buyer so the market is that much smaller.  You added value and made it a runner.

[Ghoste]

Flippers don't set the price, the selling figure does.  When I think of the term "flipper" I think of the scumbags in the hobby.  The guy who maybe doesn't even like Mopars but knows where a good example is and lies to the family to get it as cheap as he can.  "I promise I'll restore it and keep it forever I just have no money and I've always wanted one so please have pity on me, I'm sure your grandfather who bought it new would want someone who loves it as much as me would tell you to sell it to me, I'll never ever sell it".  And the next day its listed.  Maybe even listed before he bought it in some cases.

[1974dodgecharger]

I once flipped my transmission.....

[Cooter]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

[crj1968]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

Yeah but who wouldn't do this?  I could care less about Chevelles but I know the market and if I can be the first one to show up with $10K on a $15k car then what's the problem?  If I was filthy rich I wouldn't waste my time, but since I'm not, should pass on picking up an honest 5 grand?

Every used car dealer in the country is a "flipper"

[Chad L. Magee]

....

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

I don't think this example is flipping.  There is profit being had, yes, but if they were relisted at $8k each I would call flipping.  Anywhere in between could be a gray area.

Also, this example addresses supply - 5 Chargers being owned by one person.  That's a decent amount of Chargers to be put out on the market.  Now, your example presumes that the 5 are going to separate owners each owning 1 Charger.  Those individuals are more likely to start restoring the cars and being part of the hobby vs. 1 owner with 5 cars to restore.  I'm presuming at this price point they are in need of restoration.  But even for drivers at a higher price point: more Chargers = more Charger love.


As for a conspiracy of Mopar flippers.... I'm more skeptical.  However, in the Northwest here there is the well known guy in Portland (Mike iirc, never met him but seen plenty of his ads) that has pretty much tried to lock up the Charger market (and any other Mopar I think) for anything within a few hundred miles in the sub-$10k market.  He's driven prices up locally here in Washington and Oregon all by himself by a few thousand dollars.


Also:

Thirty years ago, there was a local guy very much like the one you mentioned (Jerry was his name).  He bought up almost every muscle Mopar car he could get his hands on in a 150+ mile radius around his home town.  Finding vintage Mopars in my area after he did that was looking for hens teeth.  He eventually sold out and crushed many of the parts cars when the market was down (2000).  I was lucking in finding the few "scraps" that escaped his grasp during that era.... 

[polywideblock]

I think its all about supply and demand, 6 months ago if you searched for a 70 charger  for example there were about 10 on ebay + others on "cars online" and "autabuy" . now there are 4 on ebay a couple  on "cars online" and a few in" autabuy ". it has gone from a choice from lets say 17 cars to a choice between 10 cars  ,demand for this model has pushed the prices up 2-3 K  in just 6 months  . on the other hand 3rd gen Plymouths seem to have stayed at the same price or dropped a bit   
you also have a lot of overseas buyers wanting to get into the hobby ,this is where the "undesirable element" comes into play  people like "American muscle cars"  listing a 71 gtx with a vin sticker off another car    someone that doesn't know how to do the homework will get burned 

still say we need a sticky  with bad dealers etc listed so that if someone has gone to the trouble of googleing their name (dealership) it will come up